Moving to Li-Ion battery...which brands? BMS?

[Zero Knievel]

Some say I would be well-served to move to a Li-Ion battery when the time comes to change my AGM.  They emphasize to get one with a Battery Management System built in so it's "plug and play"...so to speak.

 

I'm not having luck identifying batteries that include a BMS in it's design.  Any recommendations?

[SwampNut]

Nobody would recommend a lithium-ion.  See the LiFePO4 thread, they all include integrated BMS.  On page five after your bike catches fire, come back and tell us more about it.

 

[tomek]

 Shorai. Not sure what is has or does not have, but the bike starts right up after sitting dormant for 7-8 months. Track bike. No trickle chargers, etc. 

 Truly maintenance free. Get one and forgetaboutit. 

 

I predict 10 pages 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2024 by tomek

[Zero Knievel]

Thoughts on this one?  Looks like it's all I'd need.

 

https://www.amazon.com/NOCO-NLP14-Powersport-Motorcycles-Snowmobiles/dp/B091P9QXX7/ref=sr_1_1_sspa?crid=KIEIH5KCEYA4&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.uVnE4tYKoSE_Tl1lYlKE-Ye3lTF46cM2bgoH66HulFzGjHj071QN20LucGBJIEps.Yx5ws6AuW8m8udsZbkKtLMk-shC1IMqU0Y0h7dKokqc&dib_tag=se&keywords=lifepo4+battery+12v+etx14&qid=1716906227&s=automotive&sprefix=lifepo4+battery+12v+etx%2Cautomotive%2C1080&sr=1-1-spons&vehicle=2018-31-24868-20-----14279------5&vehicleName=2018+BMW+R1200RS&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9hdGY&psc=1

[SwampNut]

Can't go wrong with that brand.  I can't say it's best, nor cheapest, however it seems to constantly get great results and reviews.  I put one in the KTM.

 

 

 

 

[Zero Knievel]

Thanks.  It's on my shopping list for when I need to replace the current battery.  

[xrated]

I'm calling BULLSHIT on the "500" amps of starting power.....that's not happening.  My 302AH EVE cells that I used for building my battery, which by the way, One of those four cells for my battery is larger than the entire battery of 4 cells of the NOCO battery.  The max. current limit on my cells are 1C....which means 302 amps.  Like I said, I'm calling BS on the Amazon ad for that particular stat.

[SwampNut]

You can simply ignore all of the claimed numbers, they are not true, and don't matter.

 

That said, I bet you'd get more than that into a dead short.  My RC boat ran a 120A motor controller, on hand-sized batteries.

 

[Zero Knievel]

7 minutes ago, xrated said:

I'm calling BULLSHIT on the "500" amps of starting power.....that's not happening.  My 302AH EVE cells that I used for building my battery, which by the way, One of those four cells for my battery is larger than the entire battery of 4 cells of the NOCO battery.  The max. current limit on my cells are 1C....which means 302 amps.  Like I said, I'm calling BS on the Amazon ad for that particular stat.

 

Well, that's what NOCO is claiming on their own website.  So, if it's false, it's NOCO's fault.

[Zero Knievel]

Here's another one that came recommened.

 

https://www.amazon.com/Antigravity-Performance-Motorcycle-Powersport-Generator/dp/B079VW9PVJ/ref=sxin_17_pa_sp_search_thematic_sspa?content-id=amzn1.sym.679ca254-fe3a-4b5e-a742-a17f009c74a4%3Aamzn1.sym.679ca254-fe3a-4b5e-a742-a17f009c74a4&crid=2ZAPIF4IQYB07&cv_ct_cx=LiFePO4+battery+antigravity&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.MFDRVrxAVrZqj53sHJ5XtjBdBRKf0iaFhEBsGhSqCNtIniPcn9Do1pMKrSa1wx5qnWn484IBobi5LPS0sfxC3Q.9VB8y8vkBPIweAnW82B736PsTYK-4TS6OeXMdtriCqw&dib_tag=se&keywords=LiFePO4+battery+antigravity&pd_rd_i=B079VW9PVJ&pd_rd_r=c3d69754-8eb7-4fbe-bc68-3cc946e0720e&pd_rd_w=3pJFp&pd_rd_wg=DLiff&pf_rd_p=679ca254-fe3a-4b5e-a742-a17f009c74a4&pf_rd_r=5QX79J7WG53W10307NMD&qid=1716918751&s=automotive&sbo=RZvfv%2F%2FHxDF%2BO5021pAnSA%3D%3D&sprefix=lifepo4+battery+antigrav%2Cautomotive%2C850&sr=1-5-364cf978-ce2a-480a-9bb0-bdb96faa0f61-spons&vehicle=2018-31-24868-20-----14279------&vehicleName=2018+BMW+R1200RS&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9zZWFyY2hfdGhlbWF0aWM&psc=1

[SwampNut]

Double the price, pretty confident it's not twice as good as the Noco.  AG is known for their "press to reboot" feature.  If this is of value, well then there you go.

 

[xrated]

4 hours ago, SwampNut said:

You can simply ignore all of the claimed numbers, they are not true, and don't matter.

 

That said, I bet you'd get more than that into a dead short.  My RC boat ran a 120A motor controller, on hand-sized batteries.

 

Hopefully, the BMS would stop it, but it may take several milli-seconds to happen

[xrated]

4 hours ago, Zero Knievel said:

 

Well, that's what NOCO is claiming on their own website.  So, if it's false, it's NOCO's fault.

My purpose was not to assign blame for bad/wrong info, just to point out the obviously errant information.

[DaveK]

NOCO is a well known shit brand Mike.  Poor quality, poor packaging, and just overall poor everything. 

 

STAY AWAY FROM NOCO. 

[SwampNut]

54 minutes ago, DaveK said:

NOCO is a well known shit brand Mike.  Poor quality, poor packaging, and just overall poor everything. 

 

STAY AWAY FROM NOCO. 

 

[DaveK]

I simply don’t want to hear him bitch about an incredible product and company. 
 

BECAUSE YOU KNOW HE WILL. 

[tomek]

Don't they all come from same factory on China? Just different stickers? No? 

 

 Asking cause because most of acid batteries in United States come from Johnson Controls. Just different stickers. 

[SwampNut]

LOL, I figured maybe you were going with reverse psychology.

 

[superhawk996]

3 hours ago, tomek said:

Don't they all come from same factory on China? Just different stickers? No? 

 

 Asking cause because most of acid batteries in United States come from Johnson Controls. Just different stickers. 

I don't know how many LiFePo battery factories/suppliers there are, but the batteries are definitely different between different brands.

[superhawk996]

10 hours ago, xrated said:

I'm calling BULLSHIT on the "500" amps of starting power.....that's not happening.  My 302AH EVE cells that I used for building my battery, which by the way, One of those four cells for my battery is larger than the entire battery of 4 cells of the NOCO battery.  The max. current limit on my cells are 1C....which means 302 amps.  Like I said, I'm calling BS on the Amazon ad for that particular stat.

It appears that you are confusing amp hours with cranking amps.  The generally accepted 'rule' is that CCA is over seven times higher than AH.

 

The sustained current limit on your batteries may be 1C, but I bet they'll put out WAY more if asked to.

[superhawk996]

Mike, NOCO and Antigravity are both well known for being good.  Either should serve you well, so get a Chinesium counterpart so you have something to bitch about later.  Make sure you strap it down properly, start a 57 page thread if needed.

 

This reminds me of the amount of abuse I served up to my first Battery Tender branded LiFePo, poor bastard.  It was run down to several times, left sitting, then usually jump started because I was impatient and didn't want to wait to charge it properly.  When the next Bird showed up I bought another BT brand battery, and it has also been abused, tho maybe not as badly. It's amazing to me that the bike can sit for several months and still crank long enough for the carbs to fill and the engine to fire up.

[Zero Knievel]

15 hours ago, Zero Knievel said:

Well, that's what NOCO is claiming on their own website.  So, if it's false, it's NOCO's fault.

 

11 hours ago, xrated said:

My purpose was not to assign blame for bad/wrong info, just to point out the obviously errant information.

To be fair, NOCO says 500 watts “peak.”  Which may be accurate.  Lots of things hav peak output but there’s no guarantee you’ll get it at any given time.

[superhawk996]

3 hours ago, Zero Knievel said:

To be fair, NOCO says 500 watts “peak.”

I assume you meant amps, not watts.

[Zero Knievel]

9 minutes ago, superhawk996 said:

I assume you meant amps, not watts.

 

Yes.  Bad, bad me.  

[xrated]

8 hours ago, superhawk996 said:

It appears that you are confusing amp hours with cranking amps.  The generally accepted 'rule' is that CCA is over seven times higher than AH.

 

The sustained current limit on your batteries may be 1C, but I bet they'll put out WAY more if asked to.

No, I'm not confusing the two.  Generally speaking, LFP batteries intended purpose is what is typically called Deep Cycle type batteries.  Having said that, will they crank engines over?......the answer of course is based on the load current for the starter, and just how much peak or pulse current that they can provide without triggering the controlling BMS that is built into them.  Mine for example, will easily start the onboard Onan 5500W generator with absolutely zero (no pun intended) issues.  That starter on that generator will normally pull in the 100 to 110 amps while cranking the engine to life.

 

And as far as my DIY battery cells, the data sheet does say that for a "peak pulse", it can do 2C for 30 seconds.  The key to that number though is that the standard 1C discharge rate is equal to 250 amps.  So yes, the cell itself is capable (so they say) of doing 500 amps for a max. time of 30 seconds.....but again, we are talking about a BARE CELL.....not a completed battery that is controlled by a BMS.  And here is the important thing to remember in this conversation....Just ONE of my Four cells, is larger than the ENTIRE NOCO battery in question here, and the battery of course is comprised of 4 LiFePO cells internally connected in series to to get to the nominal 13.2V of a LFP battery.  So if ONE of my cells can produce 500A for a peak time and the entire NOCO battery is smaller than one of my cells, it is simply not realistic that the NOCO is able to produce a 500 amps....even at Peak or Pulse.  As Carlos stated earlier though, it really doesn't matter that much if all the advertised ratings are being greatly exaggerated.  The battery's purpose is likely sized to be able to start a motorcycle, garden tractor, snowmobile, jet ski, etc.  Those engines just do not have the starter current draw of say a car/truck engine or maybe a boat engine with a 350 cu in V8 motor in it