Bought blackbird '99 3 days ago

[everydayrider99]

Story,

I have a 94' VFR, and a 97' Magna, I needed to upgrade for some more power. Being devoted to Honda's, obviously the Blackbird was the choice. Anyway, I go to check the bike out, it was a 99 listed for 3000, with 11000 miles.(Instantly draws my attention, as well as suspicions). So he lets me test ride it and all, no problem. It had been dropped twice, once on each side, but you wouldnt know unless you looked for it. It looks as if it sat outside for quite awhile, aluminum oxidizing, rust on lower triple tree, dirty interior areas, rust on the inside of the gas tank. So the bike seemed to run fine after riding it, idled well, shifted well, etc. I brought my voltmeter, checked the voltage across the battery terminals at 4k RPM's, good to go...... so I thought.

Talked him down to 2800, awesome deal for 99 blackbird with 11000 miles. (He says just installed new spark plugs right before i got there.)

Bike rides home just fine, pulls like a bastard, etc... Until I look down past the guages and see the front right fork has a small leak, YAY! first big problem, didnt check enough before purchase. Oh well I figure it is the seals, and hopefully not front fork damage from running into something head on.(It had touch up paint on the front fender). So I take all of this with stride and say screw it, I put about 150 miles on it the first day.

Next morning I wake up to take the bike to work, I hit turn key, hit starter, it turns half way and all of sudden just stops. (The battery has plenty of power) It feels almost as if the engine has seized. So I get off, shift it into first and give it a little run and bump.... tire just skids and doesnt turn over. Turns over easier in a higher gear, so I tried the same method with the same result. (Getting scared). Shift back to neutral, back to second, and back down to neutral, starts right up!!! WHAT THE HELL??? I have never heard of anything like this. So after it started, I rode to work, thinking 'crap....this is going to happen when I try to go home after work'. Sure enough, go outside, turn the key engine turns halfway over and get stuck. Get off shift up and down from second, move bike back and forth to try and work the gears around, after a little tinkering it start again and rides right home.

So questions on this... Would not waiting for the fuel pump go through its full cycle cause the bike to seize up? Would a shitty clutch cause this? Would low quantity of dirty hydraulic fluid in the clutch line cause this? What the hell is going on here. I have 2 other bikes and this has never happened.

Also, I have never had a fuel injected bike. If you dont let it warm up at idle for a minute, will it be a little stuttery at low rpm's for a few minutes?

I am just worried about the engine seizure, or gears being stuck.. or other crap. Tranny can be a little clunky. Help Please????

Thanks Everyone

[rockmeupto125]

#1.........check your oil. If the level is high, and it smells like gas, you're dumping raw gas into a cylinder and causing a hydraulic lock when you try to start it.

If that's not it, there's other ideas, but that one will cost you a motor, so check that first.

[jon haney]

This is a tough one.

If the transmission had a problem, I would think it would also show itself while riding and rowing through the gears.

I'm thinking starter or starter clutch.

You need to find someone very familiar with how the starter mechanism and transmission work and let them evaluate the situation first hand. We're a helpful bunch around here. Just need to know where you are to see if anyone is close.

Edit: Joe (Rockmeupto125) is the man. I like his theory better. Sounds more plausible, too.

[everydayrider99]

#1.........check your oil. If the level is high, and it smells like gas, you're dumping raw gas into a cylinder and causing a hydraulic lock when you try to start it.

If that's not it, there's other ideas, but that one will cost you a motor, so check that first.

Thanks I appreciate this one, because I did contemplate it. I tipped my VFR over awhile back, layed over in the back of a truck for 40 minutes... It would not start and I thought I was screwed. Tried to start it again the next day... fired right up.

Anyway, if this were the case, your saying one of my cylinders is possibly being flooded overnight? Causing it to basically jam. But why would it start very cleanly after shifting back forth between gears, and rocking from front to back while in gear, then shifting back to neutral and it then it starts?

[OMG]

If there is fuel in the oil it can cause those symptoms, however shifting the gears wouldn't change anything. I would be more inclined to suspect an electrical problem or as mentioned, starter drive. Perhaps a number of starts and stops will loosen things up that may be sticking from lack of exercise.

Above all check the oil!

[Redbird]

I'd add checking the neutral switch to your list. I know, that wouldn't "lock up" your motor, but I've seen plenty of bikes drag the rear tire when bump starting is attempted. Too many variables there for me to be convinced the motor is necessarily locked up. Rider weight, available traction and how fast you dump the clutch being a few.

The switch is worth checking, anyway, once the flooding thing is explored- I agree that's step one.

[rockmeupto125]

Anyway, if this were the case, your saying one of my cylinders is possibly being flooded overnight? Causing it to basically jam.

Correct, that is what I am saying.

If it were hydraulic locked, typically due to a bad fuel pressure regulator, it would not start after a ritual of shifting the transmission and rocking the bike. Nor would it start after multiple repeated attempts without opportunity for the gas to drain past the rings sufficiently to allow the engine to rotate. From your story, I don't know how much time elapsed in your attempts to start the bike. Thus are the difficulties of communicating mechanical things in text.

So if there's no increasing oil level, your oil doesn't smell like gas, and you're able to start the bike by doing something else to it, then its most probably not hydraulic lock. Being able to turn the engine over by pushing in a higher gear only validates this.

But why would it start very cleanly after shifting back forth between gears, and rocking from front to back while in gear, then shifting back to neutral and it then it starts?

I do not know. What can interfere with starting are problems with the transmission neutral sensor, the clutch override switch, and the sidestand switch. The only scenario I can envision that fits what you've described so far is a sticking neutral sensor which is jarred into operation by manipulation of the transmission. Do you have a neutral light at these times?

If you take the position that fiddling with the transmission does nothing for the problem, but is merely coincidental, then anything electrical with moving parts or a connection block is suspect. Starter switch, bank angle sensor, etc, etc. This is based upon the condition of the bike...exposed to the elements and rarely used...situations where small switches can be affected and metal to metal contacts can become corroded.

So questions on this... Would not waiting for the fuel pump go through its full cycle cause the bike to seize up? Would a shitty clutch cause this? Would low quantity of dirty hydraulic fluid in the clutch line cause this? What the hell is going on here. I have 2 other bikes and this has never happened.

Also, I have never had a fuel injected bike. If you dont let it warm up at idle for a minute, will it be a little stuttery at low rpm's for a few minutes?

I am just worried about the engine seizure, or gears being stuck.. or other crap. Tranny can be a little clunky. Help Please????

First, bump starting this bike in first ain't gonna happen.

Not waiting for the fuel pump will not cause anything except possibly slower starting.

A shitty clutch will not cause this. Low hydraulic fluid or crud in the system could cause the clutch safety switch not to actuate so that the bike wouldn't start in gear with the clutch pulled in. Now if the bike thought it was in gear because the neutral switch was stuck, this could come into play.

The FI bike stutters a little bit at first idle. Some of that may be driveline lash, and would be demonstrated by a decrease in "stuttering" when you pull in the clutch.

The tranny is big and clunky. It shifts better with higher RPM.

NOW SOME REMARKS AND DISCLAIMERS:

*Why did the PO just change the spark plugs?

*Not to be arrogant, but the XX just has so few problems that there very few standardized and known problems with the bike, and those are pretty well documented. So there's no significant precedent for your particular problem that's XX specific.

*I'm not an expert. I've just been around the bikes and the XX service forums for quite a while, and paid some attention.

*I'm particularly not a transmission expert. It may be possible that under a specific set of circumstances, a bent shift fork might allow two gears to engage simultaneously, especially at lower speeds. This might cause your phenomenon of partial rotation and then lockup...but only if you didn't have the clutch disengages at the time. Even if your bike was seriously abused, the transmission is stout, and problems with it are quite unusual.

*Why do you say it has a shitty clutch?

*The biggest head scratcher in this may very well be that the starter works for a partial rotation. That's an unusual "non-starting" situation.

Given the situation you describe....condition of the bike and the problem you're having, I can tell you what I would do. Check all the fluids and ride it. I think that with use, switches and such that may be functioning sporadically might loosen up. Some familiarity with the problem should yield better results.

[Furbird]

I just realized, with this being a 99, and with him admitting it's got rust in the tank, can you imagine how corroded the ground test plug is in the back of the bike? I'd start there first. At this point you're probably talking about completely corroded ground wires from end to end throughout the bike, which can cause all sorts of issues (went through this with my dragbike, which had been left outside repeatedly before I got it.)

[everydayrider99]

Well thanks for all your help everyone. I will just continue to read and ride, hoping the sticking goes away with some more miles. Rockmeupto125, thanks for taking the time to fully evaluate each question.

[RXX]

Where do you live?

[everydayrider99]

Where do you live?

Lake Forest, CA

[mikesail]

Where do you live?

Lake Forest, CA

I'm a few miles north, I'll be happy to come by and see if we can solve it. Send me a PM if you want.

[everydayrider99]

Where do you live?

Lake Forest, CA

I'm a few miles north, I'll be happy to come by and see if we can solve it. Send me a PM if you want.

Will do, I appreciate it. I am going out of town here for about 2-3 weeks on tuesday and have to put this on the back burner for a minute. Gotta make money to spend money. It's lame.

[XXMAN]

You need to get that tank lined and replace the fuel filter so you don't have more problems than you have now. There are kits you can buy and do it fairly inexpensively I seen them for like 35 bucks.

[TuffguyF4i]

That is exactly what i was going to say. Rust in a tank doesn't go away. It gets worse and your problems will get greatly magnified. Tear that thing off and clean it up.

Is the neutral light on when you hit the starter? Or are you starting the bike in gear?

Hondas, unlike Suzuki's, don't need the clutch pulled in to start the bike. I'm sure you know this...just trying to rule things out.

[everydayrider99]

That is exactly what i was going to say. Rust in a tank doesn't go away. It gets worse and your problems will get greatly magnified. Tear that thing off and clean it up.

Is the neutral light on when you hit the starter? Or are you starting the bike in gear?

Hondas, unlike Suzuki's, don't need the clutch pulled in to start the bike. I'm sure you know this...just trying to rule things out.

Tank Cleaning, check.

Yes neutral light is on when I try to start. No offense to you but I know the obvious checks. I might be young but I have been riding only Hondas for about 6 years and have an engineering degree(I am not bragging, I can tell there are many well educated riders on the forum, but in many posts I have noticed some people talking down to new people on the forum). There is probably so much fuel in the oil that it is seizing up a little, no bueno. When I get back from my trip I am going tear this bad boy apart. I am selling my VFR and putting my money and effort into the blackbird. Love both bikes, but I love the power more.

Again, I do appreciate all responses, and thanks for everyone's help.

[DaveK]

(I am not bragging, I can tell there are many well educated riders on the forum, but in many posts I have noticed some people talking down to new people on the forum).

Welcome to CBR1100XX.ORG mother fucker

[everydayrider99]

(I am not bragging, I can tell there are many well educated riders on the forum, but in many posts I have noticed some people talking down to new people on the forum).

Welcome to CBR1100XX.ORG mother fucker

haha nice to be here

[DaveK]

(I am not bragging, I can tell there are many well educated riders on the forum, but in many posts I have noticed some people talking down to new people on the forum).

Welcome to CBR1100XX.ORG mother fucker

haha nice to be here

Nice to have you here....

[Chewtoy]

Where do you live?

Lake Forest, CA

I'm a few miles north, I'll be happy to come by and see if we can solve it. Send me a PM if you want.

I'm south of you in San Clemente & have a resto in the same sitch as yours - but carb'd.

Same deal, gas in the oil. Rebuilt carbs solved that.

I also pulled the oil pan and peeked @ the innards to be sure nothing obvious was going on. It's a saturday task, not a big deal, would consider it in your case.

[vase]

When I got my Blackbird, I had to have my fuel tank relined as the fuel had gone off - it hadnt been ridden in 2years and the fuel turned to jelly. Had carbs cleaned too but were needed to be extremely thorough - took it to a dyno the hp showed 88 hp but after cleaning throroughly (2nd attempt) went up to 137 hp which was a massive difference -170mph of fun.

Best of luck.

[Hooplehead]

step#1, (and new plugs at 11k)? Hmmmm.. on a bird so closely maintained it has a rusty tank and fork leak. Hmmmm... Wouldnt lean towards poor fuel on either a carbd or efi bird for a "no turn over" condition. Poor running or wont start, but not this description. Dragging the birds tire when slipping the clutch in lower gears is normal, its just as much the cylinder volume, as it is the compression. Arent birds like 10:1, i'd have to look.

Im mostly an auto technician, but investigate #1 and be sure to look for ANY signs of water buildup. New plugs should look BRAND NEW STILL! If they do, sounds like a bum starter to me, or perhaps the wiring to it. perhaps supplement your starter signal wire (be sure to unhook the bird from the wire your adding 12+ to) and that would narrow it to the starter or the wiring up to it. Trans problems would more than likely exhibit themselves as you rode. BUT, im not a bird pro, perhaps theres a clutch part to the starter im unfamiliar with. Just my 2cents....

[everydayrider99]

step#1, (and new plugs at 11k)? Hmmmm.. on a bird so closely maintained it has a rusty tank and fork leak. Hmmmm... Wouldnt lean towards poor fuel on either a carbd or efi bird for a "no turn over" condition. Poor running or wont start, but not this description. Dragging the birds tire when slipping the clutch in lower gears is normal, its just as much the cylinder volume, as it is the compression. Arent birds like 10:1, i'd have to look.

Im mostly an auto technician, but investigate #1 and be sure to look for ANY signs of water buildup. New plugs should look BRAND NEW STILL! If they do, sounds like a bum starter to me, or perhaps the wiring to it. perhaps supplement your starter signal wire (be sure to unhook the bird from the wire your adding 12+ to) and that would narrow it to the starter or the wiring up to it. Trans problems would more than likely exhibit themselves as you rode. BUT, im not a bird pro, perhaps theres a clutch part to the starter im unfamiliar with. Just my 2cents....

It was getting such poor fuel mileage that I had went through every bit of the fuel which was in it, and then some fresh fuel. I shifted up when trying to bump start, but you are right even in second it would be difficult. Although, I have done it in first on my 750 VFR. I know its bad but.... don't act like you all haven't done it. I am nearly sure it is hydraulic lock. I have just got back from a business trip and will be taking the fairings off in just a little bit, and then hopefully onto the tank and FPR. I have to leave again soon for a vaca, and then more traveling, this is going to be awhile. I will update whenever I figure out what the hell is going on.