20 Extra Horsepower!!

[Para045]

I find it quite illuminating that Bognor Paul has not bothered to respond to the posts regarding

the complete lack of correlation between his claims and what actually transpired on the dyno

when EVLXX took his bike to have it tested.... There's certainly no way I'd spend $1200 on a

set of cans that produce a mere 5hp gain, if that.

Well that's because of a number of things... one you guys are tough, and to it's not over yet, paul is still e-mailling me and we are working or trying to figure out why I didn't get the results he was expecting.

Part of it might be my fault... not his ! My Long ass Mid-pipes are cooling the exhaust gasses down rappidly, and therefor affecting the way the Cans were designed to work.

So be patient....

I'll post more when we know more.

Edited to add:

Fine tuning any product takes time, and as always, not everything works the same in every application...

I'll get it sorted out... at least to the best of my abilities and understanding, and in conjunction with Paul.

It'll probably take another week or 2... maybe 3. progress is slow due to all the other projects I have burn. But I'l get there.

Good on you EVLXX for sticking with this and taking a positive outlook on the experience, there has been some really negative comments in regards to the output being quite a bit lower than Paul expected but as has been stated there are many reasons why this could be the case and as you are the one that has taken the risk and put the hard work in then if antone is entitled to bitch it is you but you haven't I am interested to see what eventuates purely from a curiosity point of view as I cannot justify the $1000AUD odd to even putsomething like Yoshi slip on's on my XX for the mild increase in power but if this sort of pipe were to get what is promoted then I possibly would look at it

[Flitemdic]

I find it quite illuminating that Bognor Paul has not bothered to respond to the posts regarding

the complete lack of correlation between his claims and what actually transpired on the dyno

when EVLXX took his bike to have it tested.... There's certainly no way I'd spend $1200 on a

set of cans that produce a mere 5hp gain, if that.

Well that's because of a number of things... one you guys are tough, and to it's not over yet, paul is still e-mailling me and we are working or trying to figure out why I didn't get the results he was expecting.

Part of it might be my fault... not his ! My Long ass Mid-pipes are cooling the exhaust gasses down rappidly, and therefor affecting the way the Cans were designed to work.

So be patient....

I'll post more when we know more.

Edited to add:

Fine tuning any product takes time, and as always, not everything works the same in every application...

I'll get it sorted out... at least to the best of my abilities and understanding, and in conjunction with Paul.

It'll probably take another week or 2... maybe 3. progress is slow due to all the other projects I have burn. But I'l get there.

Good on you EVLXX for sticking with this and taking a positive outlook on the experience, there has been some really negative comments in regards to the output being quite a bit lower than Paul expected but as has been stated there are many reasons why this could be the case and as you are the one that has taken the risk and put the hard work in then if antone is entitled to bitch it is you but you haven't I am interested to see what eventuates purely from a curiosity point of view as I cannot justify the $1000AUD odd to even putsomething like Yoshi slip on's on my XX for the mild increase in power but if this sort of pipe were to get what is promoted then I possibly would look at it

Yeah, +1 on that, Eric. Good on ya for sticking with it. I was really impressed with your attitude towards the whole thing when we were in Arkansas.

[beondwacko]

It sounds like the next step would be to ceramic coat the mid pipes ( inside and out ) and maybe possibly even header wrap them as well. A lot of expensive experimentation, but invaluable data will be the result for Paul and others.

[Fonzie]

I find it quite illuminating that Bognor Paul has not bothered to respond to the posts regarding

the complete lack of correlation between his claims and what actually transpired on the dyno

when EVLXX took his bike to have it tested.... There's certainly no way I'd spend $1200 on a

set of cans that produce a mere 5hp gain, if that.

Well that's because of a number of things... one you guys are tough,

He didn't seem to mind how "tough" we were when he was espousing the virtues of his pipes while trying to sell them to us?!? BTW....did he ever pay the board for his advertisement??

It sounds like the next step would be to ceramic coat the mid pipes ( inside and out ) and maybe possibly even header wrap them as well. A lot of expensive experimentation, but invaluable data will be the result for Paul and others.

I know you said before, you were paying him for these pipes Eric........but I sincerely hope you changed your mind on that after all the "realworld" R&D you're providing him....not to mention the fact his pipes didn't do what he so adamantly said they would. But then again.......I still may be "guessing about what I don't understand"

[Northman]

You fucking guys and your conspiracy theories

Some of you just need to shut the fuck up and wait for updates, instead of criticizing something you obviously don't know enough about. Testing on these has just begun, and Paul has been working hard with both Eric and I to provide a product that we will all be satisfied with.

I think we've heard enough from the peanut gallery.

[CxBXR]

You fucking guys and your conspiracy theories

Some of you just need to shut the fuck up and wait for updates, instead of criticizing something you obviously don't know enough about. Testing on these has just begun, and Paul has been working hard with both Eric and I to provide a product that we will all be satisfied with.

I think we've heard enough from the peanut gallery.

Yes, this may be true, But the Blackbird isnt getting any younger in the US anymore, I would also like to know about the research that has been put on the back burner.

[MrBadExxample]

I've been reading this thread since it was started. Like many threads on this site, I've learned from it. Here's what I'd like to add.

The best way to avoid failure is to do nothing. I respect those who are try and fail more than those who never try. Failure is part of success. I'm not saying Paul is failing, far from it actually. He, Eric and Chris are simply working through the difficulties of the innovation process.

Perhaps Paul's claim of 20 extra HP was a bit premature. But the claim was probably driven more by exuberance of his initial results than any deceitful intent. Hopefully someday we'll understand his initial success and be able to consistently reproduce it. But that won't happen without more development, testing, innovation and failure.

[jon haney]

How is your bike set up?

Mine was all stock. Mirrors, stock height, stock exhaust, stock everything. Im about 185. Im sure I could have ran 10.4's that day if I could have gotten a good launch. Its tough with that hydraulic clutch

Call Brock Davidson and talk to him about one of his clutch cushions. It's not that expensive, but you do have to send him your inner clutch hub. Mine is now smoother than my old Suzuki Katana 1100 was.

[EVLXX]

Perhaps Paul's claim of 20 extra HP was a bit premature. But the claim was probably driven more by exuberance of his initial results than any deceitful intent. Hopefully someday we'll understand his initial success and be able to consistently reproduce it. But that won't happen without more development, testing, innovation and failure.

I believe that's a Home run.

[kevinskii]

Perhaps Paul's claim of 20 extra HP was a bit premature. But the claim was probably driven more by exuberance of his initial results than any deceitful intent. Hopefully someday we'll understand his initial success and be able to consistently reproduce it. But that won't happen without more development, testing, innovation and failure.

The Blackbird story isn't their only claimed success. A quick browse of their website (http://www.urbanept.com) turned up the following:

- Claimed 20hp gain on a CBR600RR for only 299(UK)

- Claimed 23hp gain on an R6

- Claimed 10hp gain on another R6 racing bike that already had very high-end mods

- Claimed 120hp on an '02 carbureted R6 w/ their mods

It's okay to experience setbacks during development, but my objection is that they're actively marketing, pricing, and selling their products even though a lot of research is still apparently needed. They should at least be limiting sales to their home territory while they get the kinks worked out.

I agree that there probably isn't any intentional deceit on their part. But given the drastic difference between what they're advertising and the dyno results that were reported on this forum, I question their measurement techniques. If any of these claimed horsepower increases were even somewhat reproducible, these guys would be gods in the motorcycle world right now. We'd all have pin-ups of them in our garages. My gut feeling is that this won't ever pan out.

I really, really hope that I turn out to be wrong.

[Fast Eddy]

Perhaps Paul's claim of 20 extra HP was a bit premature. But the claim was probably driven more by exuberance of his initial results than any deceitful intent. Hopefully someday we'll understand his initial success and be able to consistently reproduce it. But that won't happen without more development, testing, innovation and failure.

I believe that's a Home run.

Please do keep us posted, I think it is very cool to be part of a R&D project.

I would like to see some new technology happen right hear before our eyes. :icon_clap: :icon_clap:

[R1000]

It appears to me that the Blackbird 157 hp dyno curve on the urbanept site is incorrect. The 157 hp curve seems to be an exact copy of the 137 hp curve. It is not possible to increase the power and torque by exactly the same percentage on every rpm from 4000 to 11000 as they show on http://www.urbanept.com/Default.asp?TopLev...7&Language=

Well, they are not the first to present too high power figures and it is very important to hit the market and get known to be able to grow. There are examples where e.g. the highly respected Akrapovic Company in the beginning claimed far higher power values than could be verified. Today they make competitive high-end systems. That may not have been possible if they had held a low profile from the beginning by always providing honest horsepower figures.

In this case, where +20 hp has been claimed for a Blackbird, the company in question has done more damage to themself than good in the eyes of a lot of people in this forum. They still advertise the +20 hp for a Blackbird, which is bad, so more people will buy the system but many will also be perfectly happy. Some persons experience a power gain of only a few horses as 10 to 20 hp, any number of extra play-horses reads far more on the butt-dyno than it does on a real dyno.

The butt-dyno works like this; The Bird has 135 rwhp, 35 of them are play-horses that sometimes can scare, the first 100 are needed to make it a decent moving bike. If the power is increased by 7 horses, which is a real increase of 20% play-horses, that may be experienced as e.g. 20 extra horses to a person that have never ridden a 160 rwhp motorcycle.

[Ronnie]

Did anyone here buy the pipes?

[tomek]

That dyno curve is not even doctored,it is just plain fake,I totally agree with R1000 about torque shape,% change etc.

In EVLXX dyno runs torque shapes are different,you can argue about long head pipes and heat loss euro fuel vs U.S. brews,but if that dyno run was real,at very least, the shape would have been the same.But it is not .

I had a chance to take a quick look at those cans,they appear to be fairly conventional design,the difference would be large dim. of internal buffle.Race type slip-ons are in 2.25-2.5 inch range,those are larger,closer to 2.75-3.0 I guess.They look very nice and sound nice,very deep and seems to be very well made.

As far as power gains,let`s get real here.In case of power gains of exhaust systems with race,straight buffles,the can is the least important part of the systems,unless it is restricted.You can throw the can away and it won`t matter much.

Are those cans helping exhaust gasses retain heat better and help scavenging during overlap ?,well they are what ? 3-4 feet away from exhaust ports?,by the time exhaust enters those cans it had already lost most of heat,there is no big gains to be made here.

FYI,Titanium headers make more power then otherwise indentical stainless steel ones becouse Ti retains heat better.Or you can heat wrap your SS headers.Can`t wrap TI,it will turn in yellow powder ( Ti oxide).

It is very looooooooong way from 5 hp gain to 20 gain,I think those guys are full of shit,dyno graph,20 hp gain ,etc.

Don`t kill the massenger.

[slyxdevil]

hmmm... I've got to agree with Joe... The curves are literally, exactly the same curve moved up, and the peak hp is at exactly the same rpm??

All of this on the ultra-shitty stock header?!?!

I'm with Joe again... Drop a set off to someone over here and we'll see... They do look good, and if they perform well (as shown on an independant dyno in the 'states), they should sell well.

Mike

gentlemen, i'm sure I can sort something out. I assure you I don't mess with numbers. The tests were done on a Land and Sea dyno we imported from the States, best dyno there is, got to say. I am now concerned about the ad thing and getting a slagging from members, so if you have a chum that has a dyno, then email me personally. (can that be done?) I'll then explain how the thing works.

Cheers

I wouldn't praise that dyno just yet. I have two 99 Blackbirds that I ran on a dynojet back in Nov. The streetbike made 138 HP and the dragbike made 133 HP. Two days ago I ran them on an eddy current style dyno. Streetbike made 122 Hp. WTF! The dragbike which now has a Wiseco 1195 kit, a five-angle valve job, and very mild port work made 170 HP!! No other changes and still stock compression with a zero map in the PC. Raise your hand if you buy that figure. :icon_snooty: (crickets chirping)

I am going to try a different dyno shop. I think you might want to do the same. Then you at least have some back-up.

dude i just went through same shit thursday when bike was stock it ran 135 on dyno jet dyno well it just had vance and hines slip ons now thursday i go and get a run on the ec997a eddy current dyno the bike ran 108hp after rejetting and syncing carbs ran 123hp bullshit!! this is fastest bike has ever been have a full muzzy ex system and tons of work the guy told me he does quick blips only

he didnt have colored ink either my co was good though and bike is insane fast cant keep front wheel down and im 6 foot 6 ...320lbs he told me if i run on dyno jet ill get between 140-and 160 ???????

wtf..can someone explain my powerband is right from 2k to red line much more torqe low mid and top tuned bike great reall dont like that eddy current dyno its full of shit

[beondwacko]

hmmm... I've got to agree with Joe... The curves are literally, exactly the same curve moved up, and the peak hp is at exactly the same rpm??

All of this on the ultra-shitty stock header?!?!

I'm with Joe again... Drop a set off to someone over here and we'll see... They do look good, and if they perform well (as shown on an independant dyno in the 'states), they should sell well.

Mike

gentlemen, i'm sure I can sort something out. I assure you I don't mess with numbers. The tests were done on a Land and Sea dyno we imported from the States, best dyno there is, got to say. I am now concerned about the ad thing and getting a slagging from members, so if you have a chum that has a dyno, then email me personally. (can that be done?) I'll then explain how the thing works.

Cheers

I wouldn't praise that dyno just yet. I have two 99 Blackbirds that I ran on a dynojet back in Nov. The streetbike made 138 HP and the dragbike made 133 HP. Two days ago I ran them on an eddy current style dyno. Streetbike made 122 Hp. WTF! The dragbike which now has a Wiseco 1195 kit, a five-angle valve job, and very mild port work made 170 HP!! No other changes and still stock compression with a zero map in the PC. Raise your hand if you buy that figure. :icon_snooty: (crickets chirping)

I am going to try a different dyno shop. I think you might want to do the same. Then you at least have some back-up.

dude i just went through same shit thursday when bike was stock it ran 135 on dyno jet dyno well it just had vance and hines slip ons now thursday i go and get a run on the ec997a eddy current dyno the bike ran 108hp after rejetting and syncing carbs ran 123hp bullshit!! this is fastest bike has ever been have a full muzzy ex system and tons of work the guy told me he does quick blips only

he didnt have colored ink either my co was good though and bike is insane fast cant keep front wheel down and im 6 foot 6 ...320lbs he told me if i run on dyno jet ill get between 140-and 160 ???????

wtf..can someone explain my powerband is right from 2k to red line much more torqe low mid and top tuned bike great reall dont like that eddy current dyno its full of shit

This reads like a bad hooked on Phonics commercial.

[cbrxxquad]

I really wished I knew what he said. I tried.

[Skull]

dude i just went through same shit thursday when bike was stock it ran 135 on dyno jet dyno well it just had vance and hines slip ons now thursday i go and get a run on the ec997a eddy current dyno the bike ran 108hp after rejetting and syncing carbs ran 123hp bullshit!! this is fastest bike has ever been have a full muzzy ex system and tons of work the guy told me he does quick blips only

he didnt have colored ink either my co was good though and bike is insane fast cant keep front wheel down and im 6 foot 6 ...320lbs he told me if i run on dyno jet ill get between 140-and 160 ???????

wtf..can someone explain my powerband is right from 2k to red line much more torqe low mid and top tuned bike great reall dont like that eddy current dyno its full of shit

Does your mom know you're using her computer? This website is no place for a 7-year-old.

[shovelstrokeed]

I guess you all are too young to remember archie and mahetibel by Don Marquis. Actually I'm too young as well, the series started in 1927.

archie lives

[Ronnie]

Maybe I read this all wrong but did 2 members buy these pipes? I don't know Paul and he may be upfront guy but could be he isn't as disapointed as some may think?

[EVLXX]

Maybe I read this all wrong but did 2 members buy these pipes? I don't know Paul and he may be upfront guy but could be he isn't as disapointed as some may think?

No.

Not yet anyway... ( Ithink I've said that a bunch of times already)

Northman and I are testing the Cans.

Niether one of us has payed for them YET.

Currently here's where I sit.

I got a set, installed them myself, with my own Mid-pipe design, and got some improvement. Paul and I are working on what caused the discrepancies. As I have said before, He is not happy with the results, and because of that has not charged my a dime yet.

First thought is that my Mid-pipes are loosing too much heat, and are not allowing the Cans to work propperly. So I've sent my Mid-pipes off to be Ceramic coated, and am waiting for there return.

Second thought was, that maybe by some small chance there was a manufacturing defect from one of his suppliers, and that this critical internal part is foulling up the results. So Paul is also sending me an extra set of the specific part for product comparison. When I get it I'll test them both side by side, and we'll go from there. (personnally I don't think this is the problem, but you never know, so to be safe we are covering all the bases)

Third, there is still some discrepancies/confusion with wether or not the Blackbird they tested there Cans on was completely Stock... specifically with regards to the exhaust header. But we aren't going to go down this road until we test and either confirm or ruleout the first 2 possibilties.

Hopefully within the next 2 weeks I'll have another Dyno run completed, and we can move from there.

As for how Northmans project is going.... ??? .... I don't know.

But just to clarify the Last part of your statment again.... I don't think Paul is be deceetfull in anyway.. especially consider he hasn't gained anything monitary from all this.

So far Paul and the Urbane team... are a Top notch buch of guys in my book.

[cbrxxquad]

I think that Paul is due a lot of respect. How many are developing new products for our bike. He has steped up with a performance product that should not have an effect, that has, under conditions not designed for. I have a hard time beliving anything would work with a stock header better.

Just to give you something to read.....header I am looking at myths page

[davesXX01]

Hey EvlXX, what's up with this stuff? His website dissapeared!

[EVLXX]

Well... doesn't that just figure....

I have been way to busy lately...

I sent an e-mail off to him yesterday, so we'll see what happens.

[Redbird USA]

All I know is if it will give me 20 hp I am in.

I will take a set also if I can get 20 more HP.