rockmeupto125 Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 Well maybe not treasure, but at least metal, and that can be sold for scrap. I'm in a quandary over what to do for the sake of a few dollars. I'm running electric to my new garage. It will be a buried cable, and I can't decide whether to simply bury the cable or run it in conduit. The run is about 22 ft and I'll be using 2-2-2-4 MHF which is rated for both direct burial and can be run in conduit as it is not sheathed. I should mention the ground isn't yet frozen here. 24 inches deep if it's direct bury but the trench would need to be closer to 30 inches to accommodate a sand bed. And I'd have to get a load of sand for the bed and backfill, then boards to put over it before I close the trench. On the other hand, 18 inches deep for conduit, but closer to 21 inches deep to get the TOP of the pipe at 18 inches. It's not a driving or high traffic area, so I can use schedule 40, but it would still be about $140 for pipe. I'm not going to try to pull that cable through anything less than a 2 inch pipe, and it's $30 a tube. So $140 for pipe and $150 for the trencher. Or $20 for pipe (the ground exit), $20 for sand, and $200 for the deeper trencher. I have no need to pull more cable, and I doubt the earth is gonna move enough to damage the wires before I'm dead, and after that it is someone else's problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Knievel Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 My 2 cents…do it right. If you want to sell the house, it’s a selling point. The main reason I’d not want to sell our house to get something more manageable is that for all the quirks our house has, we know them, and we know we did things right when building. Besides, if something does come up, you’re suited to handle it better. The erosion issue we had to fix, the septic line breaking, $1,000 to install a septic tank access…all because dad took shortcuts. Yeah, he died first, but try to sell a house with a septic system that hasn’t been serviced in 30 years because you bury the tank without an access collar. The $150 cost for conduit should largely be offset by savings on not needing to dig as deep, and you can use the less expensive wire option as the conduit is adding protection. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampNut Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 You made me realize I haven't picked up an air tool in three years, minimum. I say that because I was wishing I had run an air tube next to the 70A power for the shop and bought the parts about that time ago. And reality is, I probably sat on the idea for 5+ years. Fucks were depleted, and it didn't get done, and I kinda wanted it once, but not enough I guess. Which is all my way of thinking through this with you and realizing that allowing for future growth simply is no longer relevant. Electricity covers all power needs and wifi covers communications, not like you'll want a phone line out there later or a remote light switch with low voltage control. Wire in the ground is stable, well proven. Why waste time, money, and materials with no gain? What possible benefit is there really? I need to make a Craig's list $100 box of make-it-go air tools and parts, and gain back three drawers. What's with the boards? They stay in the ground? My only direct burial is 24VAC landscape wire and no codes were considered. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhawkxx Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 I have direct burial cable going out to the garage that I hand dug a trench and covered up, no sand or boards about 38 years ago and the lights are still on. At this point in your life, easy may be the best. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockmeupto125 Posted January 2 Author Share Posted January 2 Well, the house is probably going to go to someone I like, unless they maneuver the state to take the house in exchange for my nursing home. If not, they'll sell the house anyway. But I would like it to be pretty much to code specifications so the insurance company can't weasel out of paying for it if there's a fire. If I got it inspected, I would have to bring the house up to current code, and that's not happening. I think the house wiring meets the 1878 NEC the way it is. Sand forms a bed for direct burial cable to hold it away from rocks and other baddies that can wear through the insulation. Then sand goes on top for the same reason. Then boards to deflect a shovel or pick from the cable, buried cable marking tape, and then backfill. I had really planned on conduit until I found out just how much more anything bigger than one inch cost. I'm going shopping this morning, or I should say "pricing." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampNut Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 I sanded my stuff (irrigation and wires), but no boards. Hadn't thought of that. Though in my case, the lights sort of form a warning line, LOL. Guess where the pipes and wires are... Really sounds like your direct burial plan makes the most sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furbird Posted January 2 Share Posted January 2 I put mine in conduit, not because I ever expected anybody to be out there with a trencher, but you never know when somebody might be out there with a posthole digger after me. And unless you're fucking Hulk Hogan you're not busting through conduit and the wire in the ground with a posthole digger. I'll also say this. The direct burial cable I took out of the ground that was run to the previous well house from 1977 was cracked in multiple places, but back then the entire inside was coated in what looked like white lithium grease so even if it did crack the wire was protected. I could have easily cut through some of that old brittle sheathing with a shovel. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXitanium Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 16 hours ago, rockmeupto125 said: Sand forms a bed for direct burial cable to hold it away from rocks and other baddies that can wear through the insulation. Then sand goes on top for the same reason. Then boards to deflect a shovel or pick from the cable, buried cable marking tape, and then backfill. ...very professional and considerate of the next guy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampNut Posted January 3 Share Posted January 3 10 hours ago, XXitanium said: ...very professional and considerate of the next guy. Well, I know my memory, I put the tape in mine for ME. Fuck the next guy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 On 1/2/2024 at 5:29 AM, rockmeupto125 said: I had really planned on conduit until I found out just how much more anything bigger than one inch cost. On 1/1/2024 at 11:48 PM, rockmeupto125 said: I'm not going to try to pull that cable through anything less than a 2 inch pipe, and it's $30 a tube. Is it feasible to 'preload' the cable in 1" conduit before burial so you don't have to use 2" for easier pulling? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 I just did a quick googling and the "pros" say that 1 1/4" would be an easy pull on your short run as long as there aren't many bends. One talked about pulling that wire 150' with two or three 90s using 1 1/4". The consensus seemed to be that 1 1/2" is the most they'd bother using and 2" is way overkill, and they were talking about much longer runs than you have, none were less than 50' with two or more 90s. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampNut Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 Also just in case this isn't already in your tool bag, but....cable lube. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furbird Posted January 4 Share Posted January 4 As I stated in another thread, I did all my pulls before laying the conduit in the ground. Hell of a lot easier rolling that big monster out straight and sliding all that shit on than trying to pull that monster cable through the assembly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockmeupto125 Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 21 hours ago, superhawk996 said: Is it feasible to 'preload' the cable in 1" conduit before burial so you don't have to use 2" for easier pulling? You certainly can. It's absolutely against code, however. The concern is the solvent used to melt the PVC together could damage the insulation of the wires. But yeah, you could do it. The way things are looking I may have to pull through four 90's unless I do some creative bending just to match up with the pipe the jackasses that poured the pad put in while I wasn't looking. It might be easier to just forget about the existing access and put another rise and LB into the building using only two 90's. I have to look at doing this without help and I don't think I can pull hard enough to get those 4 ropes through 1 and a quarter pipe no matter how much lube I use without someone feeding it from the other side Surprise, surprise.......the owner of the local True Value dropped dead and they are liquidating. I picked up 2 inch PVC conduit for less than the regular price of 1 and a half inch. So that decision is made. Fur, I've been putting some things together. I think that cable you pulled out of the ground was specifically "well cable" given where it was and that it had a sealer in it. Well cable is considered to be temporary, but never is. And the insulation is only expected to last 15 or so years. Well cable isn't rated or approved for ANYTHING except powering a well pump. So it would be no surprise that the insulation was sketchy. As I understand things from my research, lots of progress has been made in not only the metals science behind aluminum for wiring, but also in the jacketing and insulation materials. Per norm, codes lag behind the technical capabilities as well as myths and old electrician's tales about how "you'll kill somebody if you do that" take a long time to die out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampNut Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 hour ago, rockmeupto125 said: As I understand things from my research, lots of progress has been made in not only the metals science behind aluminum for wiring, but also in the jacketing and insulation materials. Yeah, absolutely nothing about a 30+ year old cable would be applicable today. Even the metallurgy. Not one thing is the same, except maybe their continued cheaping out by using recycled electrons. But that includes the pre-loading of cable; that was a very bad idea in the past, today's jackets are impervious to most solvents. After your buying spree at deflated prices, are you going to get on a suspect list? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Knievel Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 3 hours ago, rockmeupto125 said: You certainly can. It's absolutely against code, however. The concern is the solvent used to melt the PVC together could damage the insulation of the wires. But yeah, you could do it. Why not make the length of pipe, run the wire through afterward, THEN bury it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampNut Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 23 minutes ago, Zero Knievel said: Why not make the length of pipe, run the wire through afterward, THEN bury it? Because drawing it through an unattached conduit would be way harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockmeupto125 Posted January 5 Author Share Posted January 5 There would be no point. After you did it, you'd have to lift the heavy combination into a trench and position it. The greatest drawback is there would no way to anchor the conduit while you are pulling through it, so you would have to provide both push AND pull. Cable pulling tensions can approach 1000 lbs of force in extreme situations. For instance, pulling this cable through four 90's of 1.5 inch conduit would be approaching extreme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampNut Posted January 5 Share Posted January 5 1 minute ago, rockmeupto125 said: so you would have to provide both push You're gonna need a stiffer pull string. So we're standing on the docks, and a Jet Ski pulls up saying that a friend needs help, their boat is dead. Ok, we spring into action, grab a few ropes. A friend is walking to a boat with an arm full of ropes, when another friend asks, "So...are you gonna pull them in or push them in?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted January 6 Share Posted January 6 15 hours ago, rockmeupto125 said: The way things are looking I may have to pull through four 90's My understanding is that it'll take a machine to pull that. If you have someone to push it could make a huge difference in the pull. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockmeupto125 Posted January 6 Author Share Posted January 6 And that's why 2 inch pipe. The wire I'm using is 2-2-2-4, which comes out to a very low 13.4% fill in 2 inch pvc. That's the best chance I have of getting it through there myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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