Greig Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Has anyone here replaced the stock Honda master cylinder with something newer and more effective? I want to keep my linked system and will replace my 13 year old brake lines this winter hopefully giving me better brakes. I'm thinking a newer or different master may help also? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul99xx Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 i was just thinking the same thing, brembo rcs master would be nice, just have to find out the piston size on the stock one. Best bang for buck though i would think for improving braking power would be new discs and xrac ferodo pads, my duc went from being worse than the bb to way better with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoWhee Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 IIRC the front M/C is 5/8" because I went 3/4 when I delinked. I believe the size is cast into the mc body somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redxxrdr Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 (edited) I had asked Eddy the same thing, but for my SV. He pointed to late R1 and R6 masters. They are radial types, Bremo clones. That was the easy part. Sizing ( and skills) was my next problem. I have always liked the "feel" of my stock XX. But Aunt Sylvia,says that they feel mushy to him. The SV was a brick when purchased. But it was old, with gummed up calipers. Now upgraded to 4 piston 954 calipers. It is smooth, linear, but still requires more lever force than the XX. Four more Pistons, on the same master, should have reduced the effort a lot. But I don't have a baseline, or the knowledge to know if I am as good as it gets. I grabbed the brakes on a 2016 R1 in a showroom, and found them to be wooden. Is it feel, or stopping power that you are going for? Have you cleaned and bled the system good? EBC HH pads really grab better than stock. Easy to do, without modifications. A de-link will give you more Pistons on the same size master cylinder. More mechanical advantage. But again, I don't know what is "good" feel. Also, research shows that there are different sized master cylinders, and different lever forces. I forget the technical term for the lever force. Basically it is the pivot point of the lever. Not all master cylinders are the same. So...... I know that my response has been no real help. But I will be watching the feedback that you get. I see a R1/6 master in my future for the SV. They go for $80.00, up on eBay. Edited January 9, 2016 by redxxrdr 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greig Posted January 9, 2016 Author Share Posted January 9, 2016 Thanks guys. The bike stops ok, not great but ok. The lever feels soft and has to be pulled close to the bar to work. Pads were new by PO, not sure what brand, I have changed discs, bled the system out with expensive brake fluid, (forgot which brand) and it was pretty much the same. The brakes are close to non-existent in the rain. I have a 999s and the brakes are perfect. Of course it's newer, lighter, different brake lines, etc. and I don't expect the BB to stop that well so it's an unfair comparison but it would be nice to get it to stop better. All advice is appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesail Posted January 9, 2016 Share Posted January 9, 2016 Thanks guys. The bike stops ok, not great but ok. The lever feels soft and has to be pulled close to the bar to work. Pads were new by PO, not sure what brand, I have changed discs, bled the system out with expensive brake fluid, (forgot which brand) and it was pretty much the same. The brakes are close to non-existent in the rain. I have a 999s and the brakes are perfect. Of course it's newer, lighter, different brake lines, etc. and I don't expect the BB to stop that well so it's an unfair comparison but it would be nice to get it to stop better. All advice is appreciated. Brake fluid will not change the feel of your brakes, you are wasting money there. Brake lines can have a modest effect on feel, not a night and day difference IMHO. If your calipers are sticky you can have major braking loss, if there is any air at all in the system the lever will be soft. Since you say that the brakes fail in the rain I would guess the pads are heavily glazed. In any case I would start with fresh pads and an extensive bleed. I second the use of HH pads, they work very well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoWhee Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Are you using a vacuum type bleeder or just pumping the master cylinder? Every time I've had to billed linked brakes I e had to use a pump, or I wouldn't have a good feeling when applying the brakes. ps de linked with ebc HH pads on brembo brakes it feels like I could Stoppie the 'bird. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greig Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 Thanks, JoWhee. I just pumped and filled the master as per bleeding instructions for the linked system. I have a vacuum pump so I will try that. Perhaps I will delink the brakes. Certainly the replacement hoses will be less expensive. I will buy some new HH EBC pads as per advice received. Love the Beetle Bags, thanks. Getting the tops repainted this winter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Krypt Keeper Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 I would love to have better brakes, zx-14 I test rode was bad ass. Then got on the XX and felt like wood. The zx did have issues with warping rotors I believe though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXitanium Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) Pretty sure my brakes are stock. If I grab a handfull of brakes I feel like I' m going to get pitched over the handlebars. Edited January 10, 2016 by XXitanium 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) Being mushy and squeezing almost to the grip sounds like there's air stuck in it. I would start at the master. Put the bike on the side stand with the bars left, make sure the lever end of the master is a tad higher than the exit end and that it's level front to back. You may have to lean it over farther than the kickstand allows with a stock height rear suspension. Pump it a several times, if there's air in the master this should clear it. Sometimes tapping the handle instead of just squeezing it will help break up bubbles that may be reluctant to float out the little bleed hole in the master. If still mushy bleed the rest of the system. There should be no need for a pump, but it can be easier with one. Regardless the method of bleeding the master has to be 'bench bled' as no amount of bleeding at the nipples will remove air trapped in the master. As already stated, fluid types will have no effect on pressure. They have different temperature ratings and some won't hold water in suspension. That sounds good on the surface but if any water gets into my system I'd rather it be in suspension, and easy to flush out, than pooling somewhere eating away at stuff. The rain issue could be normal or something wrong. As you ride water can slowly push the pads back leaving a gap filled with water that has to be scrubbed off on the first brake application. How long it takes for the water to do this will vary. My BB is delinked; comparing the stopping to the 999s I'd venture to guess that the 100# weight difference accounts for a fair amount of the brake feel difference. The 999 brakes are pretty great, but I don't feel like there's anything lacking when I switch over to the BB, maybe I just automatically adjust without thinking about it. My previous BB was linked and while feeling the interaction between front & rear kinda bugged me, the brakes worked quite well. Edited January 10, 2016 by superhawk996 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrated Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Just as a reference point, I bought a 2008 GSX-R750 in October for a dedicated track bike. The gixxers are not known for having great brakes, and I'm a monster on the brakes while on the track. A good friend of mine who has lived pretty much of his track day life on the GSX-Rs told me that the best improvement/cost effective method I could do for the bike was to put a set of '08 Yamaha R6 calipers on (you have to buy a set of spacers for them) and then put an R6 or late model R1 master on the bike. I got the R6 calipers on before my first track day last Oct., but didn't get the R1 master until the track season was over. The R6 calipers made a huge difference (Vesrah SRJL-XX pads) and over this winter, I'll be putting the 2014 R1 Master on the bike.........and yes, it's a Brembo made master for Yamaha. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 The GSXR masters are (or at least were, my knowledge is dated) garbage, Vern. You'll see more improvement with the new master than you did with the new calipers. My SV had a GSXR front end with R6 calipers w/Vesrah RJL's and a Brembo (aftermarket, not Yamaha) master and the brakes on that thing were incredible, night and day compared to the stock GSXR setup. For the XX, delink w/5/8" master, braided lines and EBC HH pads will fix you right up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrated Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Thanks Tim......that pretty much confirms what I've been told. I did see quite a bit of difference with just the R6 calipers though, although it surely helped that I was using the Vesrah SRJL-XX pads.........those pads are incredible. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoWhee Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Ps the Cbr 600 f3? Has a 5/8" master cylinder, so it looks OEM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Or you could go full retard and swap in a ZX14R front end with 954 or RC51SP2 triples/bearings. The 14's stock rotors do warp, so some Speiglers and the HH Extreme pads - stunning difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Krypt Keeper Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Or you could go full retard and swap in a ZX14R front end with 954 or RC51SP2 triples/bearings. The 14's stock rotors do warp, so some Speiglers and the HH Extreme pads - stunning difference. it is nice, the brakes, bars, and overall feel of your set up is perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon haney Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Ps the Cbr 600 f3? Has a 5/8" master cylinder, so it looks OEM. I think the F3 had the remote reservoir. I had an F4 master on mine with integrated reservoir, and you can't tell the difference from stock. Also, the Gen 1 Hayabusa has a 5/8" master with integrated reservoir, but the F4 master looks better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greig Posted January 14, 2016 Author Share Posted January 14, 2016 No full retard for me. Sounds like fun but expensive. So a Jaws delink kit and an F4i master, HH pads and I should be good? What about blocking off pair valve or does that just all disappear with the Jaws kit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
xrated Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 A P.A.I.R. valve has absolutely nothing to do with the hydraulic brake system. A P.A.I.R. valve is a system for inducting extra air into the exhaust of a motorcycle to help burn any fuel that wasn't burnt in the engine and to clean up the emissions from the engine. Are you thinking of the proportioning valve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greig Posted January 14, 2016 Author Share Posted January 14, 2016 Yes, my mistake. I read on one of the website something about blocking off the P.A.I.R. valve and confused it with braking. Thanks for the info on that. I am thinking about the proportioning valve. It should be removed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paul99xx Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 for best results fit new discs with new pads, they bed into each other then. If not at least hone the discs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 I've done thorough cleaning/honing a couple times and other times just slapped pads on, haven't noticed a difference. Not saying it won't make a difference, just never noticed any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon haney Posted January 14, 2016 Share Posted January 14, 2016 (edited) Yes, my mistake. I read on one of the website something about blocking off the P.A.I.R. valve and confused it with braking. Thanks for the info on that. I am thinking about the proportioning valve. It should be removed? Yes, you can remove the proportioning valve and the brake line that goes from the front secondary master (left caliper) back to the PV, plus the one that goes from the rear master up to the middle pistons of the front calipers. However, there is also a second line from the rear caliper that attaches to the PV. This line will need to be attached to the rear master. You will then have two stock lines going from the rear master to the rear caliper. Here is the full de-linking thread: http://www.cbr1100xx.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=29236 Edited January 14, 2016 by jon haney 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greig Posted January 15, 2016 Author Share Posted January 15, 2016 Thanks, Jon. That explains it clearly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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