EVLXX Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 I will say this... If ZDDP was NOT important and all you needed was an oil film to protect your moving parts.... then WHY is it in Every engine oil on the market ? Now.... Lets throw in Supply and demand coupled with government regulation.... Is a 700ppm level "Good enough" to protect your engine for a reasonably acceptable engine life-cycle, and can those values appease the governmental regulations? Yes. So now ask yourself.... why would anyone need anything that's better than that ? .... As for spreadsheets from Oil Analysis reports, .... here.... http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/category/5/Oil_Analysis_Reports Note: Just because you find one report that says the particulate numbers are "ya" high.... does not mean they are all that way... For instance I 've seen Mobil 1 MX4t with Zinc numbers from 1100ppm all the way up to as high as 1800ppm. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockmeupto125 Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 the string trick; piston down, feed some string/thin rope through the spark plug hole, raise piston. A little more work, but guaranteed. If you use air and something happens to the supply or you bump a valve hard enough to break the seal they could fall in. I always used an old clothesline......never had a problem. This is a great thread.......hard to follow with my dimensia, but still a quite interesting thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted June 5, 2014 Author Share Posted June 5, 2014 OK... Now I find this... http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=30483 Very Interesting.... Only made it through the first page... but again.. Very Iteresting. Well.... I thought so anyways. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chadjj Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 This has been a issue for several years now since EPA has started getting thier dick skinners into everything. When doing cam break i use a little bottle of additive the parts store will sell you. All the additive does is helps the engine do its normal initial wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Goat Herder Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 Thanks for the link, I'm glad that the oil I use in my truck is one of the top rated oils. It means I'm not wasting my money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhawkxx Posted June 5, 2014 Share Posted June 5, 2014 *** The latest “LOW” zinc/phos API certified oils, both synthetic and conventional, performed WAY better than expected. In fact, they are so good that their capability has surpassed most of the traditional high zinc/phos High Performance and Racing oils.*** “Low cost” conventional API certified oils performed WAY better than expected From the last link. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 *** The latest “LOW” zinc/phos API certified oils, both synthetic and conventional, performed WAY better than expected. In fact, they are so good that their capability has surpassed most of the traditional high zinc/phos High Performance and Racing oils.*** “Low cost” conventional API certified oils performed WAY better than expected From the last link. . True... However, this only proves one thing. Under this guys methods, that he doesn't fully detail, the different oils perform with different results. .... So..... so far I've concluded, I still need to perform more research on this Oil wear testing stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted June 6, 2014 Author Share Posted June 6, 2014 (edited) OK... I went looking for information on ASTM test methods... To see if the above Speed talk guys info was comparable... found the 4 ball wear and shear test methods (D4172 and D5481) are the most important and relevant test. However, finding any real world test results from those is well.... impossible. Then Ended up finding this... which is a huge continuation of the information above.... http://540ratblog.wordpress.com/2013/06/20/motor-oil-wear-test-ranking/ Which as it turns out, brought me right back to Speedtalk... and his Opinions Columns... http://blog.speedtalk.com/ .... Needless to say... the more I read from the guy... the more I am thoroughly impressed.... and I'm finding out There's a boatload of Bullshit out there. PS. it's easy to buy into the Bullshit, when it's always the first thing you find and it's backed up by countless celebrities. So, where does this bring bring me... to these to articles... I tested the zinc additives "ZDDPlus" which added a whopping 1848 ppm zinc when added at the recommended quantity, and "Edelbrock Zinc Additive" which added 573 ppm zinc when added at the recommended quantity. Each zinc additive was tested in two full synthetic oils and one conventional oil. And in EVERYONE of the six test oils, the wear protection capability DROPPED SIGNIFICANTLY. http://blog.speedtalk.com/2014/02/break-in-oils-do-we-really-need-them.html And this one.... http://blog.speedtalk.com/2013/12/0w40-vs-5w30-vs-0w30.html Which has given "ME" an new definition for the Best oil for my money, that I can buy Cheap, and use in Ever thing I own.... ( one of these) 1. 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra, API SM synthetic = 115,612 psi, which puts it in the INCREDIBLE wear protection category.The onset of thermal breakdown = 280* F2. 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN synthetic = 105,875 psi, which puts it in the INCREDIBLE wear protection category.The onset of thermal breakdown = 265* F Edited June 6, 2014 by EVLXX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffguyF4i Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 I see no reason for to change from rotella full syn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomek Posted June 8, 2014 Share Posted June 8, 2014 rotella 5/40 is JASO MA, so it is also motorcycle spec. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Krypt Keeper Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 I want to change my oil in my bike, but afraid to do it now. been running rotella T6 for 5yrs what changed? if any? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXBirdSlapper Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 (edited) EVLXX What oil did you use after replacing the cam shaft (I know you must have done a full oil & filter change) I would think all of todays oils would be suitable for a 1979 truck, sounds a little funny to me. .You would think... but thats where you would be WRONG! Since 2007, from what I gather, the new regulations DO NOT require the new oils to protect older engine criteria. Yes I did Break in Oil and Filter Changes, Cheap 10w40 oil with STP ZDDP additive. However, because I used the Cheap 10w40 oil and Cheap a ZDDP additive, it was not enough to protect the new camshsaft. I also found out, that because of all this BS, I should have also pulled my inner valve springs, what a pain in the ass. So, this time... I have purchased Comp Cams 15w50 Break in oil, and break in additives for the next 2 oil changes. That.. along with now I'm currently in the process of trying to figure out a way of pulling those springs without removing the heads... thinking compressed air.[/quotebring each cylinder into the compression stroke, feed a length of rope through the spark plug hole and finish bringing the piston up (by hand!) To trap the valves in the closed position. Back off remove rope, repeat. Air will work, unless it doesn't, at which point losing a valve into the engine would suck ass Edited June 9, 2014 by XXBirdSlapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXBirdSlapper Posted June 9, 2014 Share Posted June 9, 2014 Oops. Didnt see the rope suggestion already mentioned... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted June 17, 2014 Author Share Posted June 17, 2014 Just a small update... As it turns out the New Cam looks to have worn in perfectly, it's out, and I'm currently in the works of tracking down the true cause to all my problems. So... For now, it looks like this entire ZDDP shit is a bust. As for my motor, I've gotten it taken down to just the block, crank, and pistons left in the truck. I've pulled the # 3 main bearing cap and several of the Rod bearing caps to find that they are a wiped (Showing Copper). However, the Cam bearing appear to be perfect. So Now to figure out why only the Crack and Rods were starved for oil. When I pulled the pan... it was clean, not a lot of metal. Pulled the oil pump apart, and it definitely shows scars from metal bits going through it. All fucked up. Additionally, on the last drive home, my Oil pressure spiked, then dropped, then came back up. Upon closer inspection, I found that a piece of the oil pump block gasket was blown out, and stuck in the strainer. Not good. But even more strange at the same time. So... I'm figuring I'm going to find metal bits or something in the lower oil galleys, and the only way I can check that is if I pull the engine. I'm currently calling friends to see if I can borrow a cheery picker and an engine stand. Fun fun .... for sure. Not! More when I know more... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted June 19, 2014 Share Posted June 19, 2014 Did you pre-lube it?--run the pump with a drill after assembly to prime the oil system. The biggest mistake I see done a lot is to not prelube, AND pre-fill the filter with oil. This creates an air lock between the pump and filter not allowing the pump to prime. An empty filter, tho it takes a moment to fill, at least lets the pump prime quickly. I watched my friend kill his new hot-rod motor this way, I told him it would happen and how to prevent it, but his other friend helping him said I was wrong. On motors that can't be pre-lubed I crank the motor with no plugs and the filter off till it squirts oil (very quick), then install a pre-filled filter and get instant oil pressure. Assuming everything was lubed with assembly lube the little cranking required will be perfectly safe. Having the plugs out is an extra safety measure so there's little load on the bearings during priming. Did you clean all the oil holes including the crank? I've seen many motors wiped out early due to dirty oil holes. Most engines, if not all, have some oil holes that have to be plugged off and I've seen them left unplugged leaving a wide open escape for oil leaving little or no pressure in the system. A few years ago I did some reading on adding zinc to oil and the it was stated that the old zinc/phos and the new replacement additives can work against each other. The two tests most discussed here have been the 4 ball and the scrubber pressure test thing. The 4 ball should be a good representation of wear in a roller cam and the scrubber test a flat tappet cam. My understanding of zinc is that it does nothing until there's a moment where the oil film is scrubbed off then the zinc becomes the final barrier. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewtoy Posted June 26, 2014 Share Posted June 26, 2014 (edited) Which has given "ME" an new definition for the Best oil for my money, that I can buy Cheap, and use in Ever thing I own.... ( one of these) 1. 5W30 Pennzoil Ultra, API SM synthetic = 115,612 psi, which puts it in the INCREDIBLE wear protection category.The onset of thermal breakdown = 280* F 2. 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN synthetic = 105,875 psi, which puts it in the INCREDIBLE wear protection category. The onset of thermal breakdown = 265* F So, Evil, are these the oils you are running in your blackbird? If so, how is the clutch/shifting with them? Edited June 26, 2014 by Chewtoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXitanium Posted July 7, 2014 Share Posted July 7, 2014 Did you pre-lube it?--run the pump with a drill after assembly to prime the oil system. The biggest mistake I see done a lot is to not prelube, AND pre-fill the filter with oil. This creates an air lock between the pump and filter not allowing the pump to prime. An empty filter, tho it takes a moment to fill, at least lets the pump prime quickly. I watched my friend kill his new hot-rod motor this way, I told him it would happen and how to prevent it, but his other friend helping him said I was wrong. On motors that can't be pre-lubed I crank the motor with no plugs and the filter off till it squirts oil (very quick), then install a pre-filled filter and get instant oil pressure. Assuming everything was lubed with assembly lube the little cranking required will be perfectly safe. Having the plugs out is an extra safety measure so there's little load on the bearings during priming. Did you clean all the oil holes including the crank? I've seen many motors wiped out early due to dirty oil holes. Most engines, if not all, have some oil holes that have to be plugged off and I've seen them left unplugged leaving a wide open escape for oil leaving little or no pressure in the system. A few years ago I did some reading on adding zinc to oil and the it was stated that the old zinc/phos and the new replacement additives can work against each other. The two tests most discussed here have been the 4 ball and the scrubber pressure test thing. The 4 ball should be a good representation of wear in a roller cam and the scrubber test a flat tappet cam. My understanding of zinc is that it does nothing until there's a moment where the oil film is scrubbed off then the zinc becomes the final barrier. I've got a 913CC build motor kit I bought for $200 - with the rest of a CB750F. I've been reluctant to start. This is the kind of thing I'm worried I'll miss. Thank you for the post. I will remember that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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