EVLXX Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) (Edited to add... I have since done a complete reversal from this first post, see post #33 on the next page for the new and interesting information.) You should... If you don't I feel sorry for you... and I'll advise you to do your homework. Long story short... I recently replaced the Camshaft in my 1979, 400 Ford. The why isn't really important, but what is important is that the New Camshaft is Junk at less than 200 miles. Ya Junk... hundreds of dollars and 4 days of work down the drain. Why... Because I didn't do my Homework. I thought I knew how to properly break in a new camshaft, this was not my first rodeo, but it turns out... times have changed.. and almost all of our Motor Oils have changed... Drastically. Thank You and Fuck You EPA. (I have a new camshaft on order, and will be performing the entire procedure again... with the new Break in oil and I'll be removing the inner Valve springs, yada yada) Now, why do I bring this up here.... Because the more I read and learn, the more I worry about my motorcycle friends here... Basically if your NOT running a 15W50 automotive motor oil or a 20w50 motorcycle specific oil, like Mobil 1 MXT4.... you need to change your ways... and fast. Hear is just a few articles to look at... but like I said.. do your own homework... decide for yourself. http://www.cranecams.com/uploads/breakin/548e.pdf http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engine/flat_tappet_cam_tech/ http://zddplus.com/how-it-works/ http://suzukisavage.com/cgi-bin/YaBB.pl?num=1388855235/15 From what I've gathered... you need at least 1200 ppm of ZDDP. Most 15w50 oils have at least this. More is not always better, above 2000 ppm is considered bad as well. Yes... it does more than just protect flat tappet lifters... like plain bearings, rod end bearings, piston wrist pins, etc. etc. Luckily enough for me... I've been using Mobil 1 15w50 for years, so I'm probably alright, but now I wonder if that enough? Maybe I need to start adding a little ZDDP additive. Hmmm... good question! Edited June 7, 2014 by EVLXX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chewtoy Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 Urg, great. looks like the days of running what's on sale are over. You would expect oils to change over time, but not so that they'd stop working in our engines. Guess it's time to be on the lookout for sales on Mobil 1, and stock up when the price is right. Just changed the oil on the Expy yesterday, great timing... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02 SilverBird Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 EVLXX What oil did you use after replacing the cam shaft (I know you must have done a full oil & filter change) I would think all of todays oils would be suitable for a 1979 truck, sounds a little funny to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXitanium Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I just did son no. 3's 1989 302 yesterday. I used Mobile 1 15W 40. It said it was rated for diesel apps, I was hoping I didn't use something with too high a viscosity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted June 1, 2014 Author Share Posted June 1, 2014 (edited) EVLXX What oil did you use after replacing the cam shaft (I know you must have done a full oil & filter change) I would think all of todays oils would be suitable for a 1979 truck, sounds a little funny to me. You would think... but thats where you would be WRONG! Since 2007, from what I gather, the new regulations DO NOT require the new oils to protect older engine criteria. Yes I did Break in Oil and Filter Changes, Cheap 10w40 oil with STP ZDDP additive. However, because I used the Cheap 10w40 oil and Cheap a ZDDP additive, it was not enough to protect the new camshsaft. I also found out, that because of all this BS, I should have also pulled my inner valve springs, what a pain in the ass. So, this time... I have purchased Comp Cams 15w50 Break in oil, and break in additives for the next 2 oil changes. That.. along with now I'm currently in the process of trying to figure out a way of pulling those springs without removing the heads... thinking compressed air. Edited June 1, 2014 by EVLXX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted June 1, 2014 Author Share Posted June 1, 2014 I just did son no. 3's 1989 302 yesterday. I used Mobile 1 15W 40. It said it was rated for diesel apps, I was hoping I didn't use something with too high a viscosity. The Diesel oils Do have higher levels than th e automotive oils... however, there is some question as to whether or not those levels are high enough. Little confused.. you said you did your sons 302 yesterday... rebiuld or just oil change ? If rebuild... start praying. If just oil change, your probably OK, but I would still advise you getting some ZDDP additive in there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExPatXX Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I used to work in the engine oil lab of Rohm & Haas years ago- I remember the analysis had phosphorus, but that and zinc were not considered major componenets. The viscosity improver is what provides most of the lubricity and protection, especially as the oil heats up. There are ash dispersants, pour point depressants (keeps oil from freezing due to the waxes in the oil) and other compounds, but metaloids were more of a byproduct or a minor contributor, if anything, IIRC. It could be just that the viscosity improver, which makes an oil a 40wt or 30wt, is inferior and breaks down quickly, or is not suitable for that application. The viscosity improver sold by R&H back then went into oils from Quaker State, Valvoline and others. the base oil is around 3-5 centistokes, and around 12-15 with the viscosity improver. An engine would trash itself in minutes on running just the base oil. Synthetics are a different animal altogether. Good luck. Could the tight tolerances keep the lubricant from coating the steel, or is an oil hole or two in the block clogged or blocked? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02 SilverBird Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I think that pulling the inner valve springs (if you have them) is more for racing engines. Yes you can pump up the cylinder with compressed air to remove the valve springs (done it many times) what was worn out on the old camshaft? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhawkxx Posted June 1, 2014 Share Posted June 1, 2014 I just did son no. 3's 1989 302 yesterday. If it was in a Mustang, it should have had a roller cam which is a different beast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 I think that pulling the inner valve springs (if you have them) is more for racing engines. Yes you can pump up the cylinder with compressed air to remove the valve springs (done it many times) what was worn out on the old camshaft? Yes I have them... I have dual 350 lbs. springs in it. My motor is by no means "stock". The Stock 400 put out something like a whimpy 200 ish hp and 300 lb.ft. It had 8.6 or 9:1 compression etc etc. I "built the motor myself in 1998, and every part of the engine was upgraded. Back to the Spring rate.. read that if your valve springs are over 200lbs per inch, you need to use smaller springs for break in or reduced ratio rocker arms. ... However, that's all beside the point, the point is the Oil today is not what is was in 1997-2003. So... unless you have a Motorcycle with roller valve trian and full system roller bearings.... you need to be buying GOOD oil... And I'm not going to get into a oil flame war over name brands etc., All I'm trying to do is help to educate people. I'll say it again.... Basically if your NOT running a 15W50 automotive racing motor oil or a motorcycle specific oil, like Mobil 1 MXT4.... you need to change your ways... and fast. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomek Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Are you referring to your specific aplication I think that pulling the inner valve springs (if you have them) is more for racing engines. Yes you can pump up the cylinder with compressed air to remove the valve springs (done it many times) what was worn out on the old camshaft? ... However, that's all beside the point, the point is the Oil today is not what is was in 1997-2003. So... unless you have a Motorcycle with roller valve trian and full system roller bearings.... you need to be buying GOOD oil... I have not used m-cycle spec oil or M1 15w/50 in my BB for the last 150 k miles and somehow it keeps running. Same for my track bike, typically I run M1 0w/40 on R1. I`m not really into old school V8`s but despite of that I`ve heard of the need to use special oils on those engines in order to avoid valve-train issues........ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXitanium Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I just did son no. 3's 1989 302 yesterday. If it was in a Mustang, it should have had a roller cam which is a different beast. It was just an oil change in an old F150. Diesels really hammer on bearings and oil. I would think gas engines wouldn't be as tough on oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted June 2, 2014 Author Share Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) typically I run M1 0w/40 on R1. Hey, Mobil one 0W40 looks like some good stuff... and somehow it has better than average ZDDP levels at around 1000 ppm. Nice. From what I've been able to gather, the new norm for ZDDP in automotive oils is between 500-700 ppm. Edited June 2, 2014 by EVLXX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiwimack Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 good info, am about to do an oil change will try the Mobil one 0W40 from Walmart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John01XX Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 (edited) Does this issue still apply if using motorcycle specific oil such as Motul? Being in south Florida I generally run either 15/50 or 20/50 due to the all year high heat index In your opinion should I be adding the ZDDP in my BlackBird with Motul Oil? Edited June 2, 2014 by John01XX Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DBLXX Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Harley Oil - 20/50 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 Any non-roller valvetrain will be best protected with a zinc rich oil, but as long as the pressures aren't high enough to scrub off the oil film it'll be fine. High spring rates and rocker ratios increase the chance of finding out if you're oil is up to the task. As for the spring swap you can use air to keep the valves closed or the string trick; piston down, feed some string/thin rope through the spark plug hole, raise piston. A little more work, but guaranteed. If you use air and something happens to the supply or you bump a valve hard enough to break the seal they could fall in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Goat Herder Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I ran Mobil 1 10-40 high mileage car oil in my 03 FZ-1 for almost all of it's 137K miles and also did all of the valve adj. on it and never seen any unusual cam/lifter wear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBRXX Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 I have been using this in the XX. Read some of the details. Sounds like high ZDDP too. It's 5w40, so I notice bike turns over better in the cold than the recommended 10w40 does. Reasonably priced and 4qt jug perfect for the bird. Under $22 at Walmart and Amazon. https://www.google.com/search?q=rotella+15w40&oq=rotella+15w40&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.7056j0j8&sourceid=chrome&es_sm=0&ie=UTF-8#q=rotella+5w40+in+gas+engine Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhawkxx Posted June 2, 2014 Share Posted June 2, 2014 If you use air and something happens to the supply or you bump a valve hard enough to break the seal they could fall in. If you want to be careful, bring the piston to the top for each cylinder that you are working on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted June 3, 2014 Author Share Posted June 3, 2014 Kiwimack, What oil did you run previous? and Will you tell me how the new oil feels on your shifting after a few hundred miles of use? Thanks. John01XX No need for you to worry, Motul is good stuff.... Or at least that's what I am reading anyway, but I'm still trying to find "New" lab analysis reports for the virgin oils. As for the "motorcycle specific" oils from what I have gathered so far.... almost all of them have ZDDP levels at or above 1600 ppm Superhawk996... Excellent post. Thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 If you use air and something happens to the supply or you bump a valve hard enough to break the seal they could fall in. If you want to be careful, bring the piston to the top for each cylinder that you are working on. I almost suggested that, but if the piston is not exactly at TDC (within a couple degrees) and the pressure pushes the piston down you just lost the safety margin of having the piston there. Even worse, you may have a momentary pressure loss as the piston moves down. Confirm you are right on TDC or use low pressure so it can't roll the motor. 100 PSI will easily spin a V8 that's a few degrees off, and 10 PSI will hold the valve if not knocked. If the valve is knocked and the piston's there to catch it you can pull it back up so it seals again. By the time you account for all the safeties of using air, the string method is no more work and there's no way to foul it up. What I really like about using string is that if something happens and you want to run off for a moment or just take a break there's no danger letting it sit. Any oil with the current rating (SN I believe we're at) doesn't have enough zinc in it no matter what is touted on the bottle. If it doesn't state "not street legal" or have warnings about catalytic converter damage, it's not a high zinc oil. It would be illegal to make an oil with high zinc and label it SN as the zinc removal was one of the main requirements to meet this level. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Goat Herder Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Here's some oil analyses on Mobil 1 4T 10-40 in a Suzi 1200. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Goat Herder Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 Here's one for Shell Rotella 15-40T. Mobil 1 0-40 in a CBR1000RR Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Desert Goat Herder Posted June 4, 2014 Share Posted June 4, 2014 (edited) Golden Spec. 20-50 Don't know what to make of this. Edited June 4, 2014 by Desert Goat Herder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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