Online PCII maps: WTF? Are they worth jack?

[JohnA]

I fitted a pair of cans yesterday, legal (with an easily detatchable gizmo) but straight-through design nevertheless.

And since I already have a PCII, I naturally decided to use an amended map. There are two on the PC site for the UK bird with 'race' cans, so I thought that I could use a composite of those two mixed up with the 'stock' map (since mine are not 100% ear-shattering antisocial)

Easy eh?

Eeeerrmmmm... Nope. :icon_wall:

Upon close inspection, the online maps are all over the place. Even compared to the 'full race' ones they are incosistent and random. WTF?

I would expect them to be broadly similar, correlating quite a bit. OK one might have '10' where the other one has '12' (and the stock map has '3') but roughly moving in the same direction.

No chance --- there are even cases where they go the OPPOSITE way (one is adding fuel and the other one taking off fuel, for the same load/rev combo) :icon_duh:

Then I have another worry: did these people block the PAIR valves when doing the mapping, or were they fooled by the deceptively lean indications on the wideband?

Finally I tried to make some sense out of the 'full race exhaust' maps, but it didn't help much. They are for 4-1 exhausts that sacrifice midrange for top end. At least those are broadly consistent with each other.

I did create a 'best guess' map and I'm running it now, but do I trust it? :icon_think:

[Helvet]

I tried using Internet maps myself, and I was not pleased with the result. I ended up on doing a Dynorun, and it was well worth the money and time.

Even the set-up just like mine was totally wrong for me......

And about blocking the Pair-valves: before I read it here I never heard about it. I don't know anyone in Europe who did that, and I am still not exactly clear what the benefit is.

[twolfe]

I tried using Internet maps myself, and I was not pleased with the result. I ended up on doing a Dynorun, and it was well worth the money and time.

Even the set-up just like mine was totally wrong for me......

And about blocking the Pair-valves: before I read it here I never heard about it. I don't know anyone in Europe who did that, and I am still not exactly clear what the benefit is.

I'm dropping my bird off today for to get a custom map. I should have a map for a 99 with Scorpian slip ons by the end of the week.

[XXTi]

Would you guys with custom maps for dual slip-ons like to shar your maps with the group?

[MileHi]

I emailed mine to Jason back in June. I believe that the intent was to eventually have an online repository of maps to pick from... Jason???

I have a map for a '99 with Yoshi slipons, a K&N and PAIR block-off. It was made with 87 octane gas. Only got a couple of extra HP and ft/lbs of torque, but bike is now smooth as butta all across the RPM range and I gained a couple of MPG in the process.

[Helvet]

I'm dropping my bird off today for to get a custom map. I should have a map for a 99 with Scorpian slip ons by the end of the week.

Can you send me that map? I just received a set of Scorpions, and I would like to try them out for a while. I also have a set of Superpoles, but I just want to change sometimes.

This is a pic of my bike during my last vacation in the Italian Dolomites.

[twolfe]

As soon as I get the map I'll post it. I'll include the dyno chart with my bike stock, and the runs with the slip ons and custom map.

[tomek]

Finally I tried to make some sense out of the 'full race exhaust' maps, but it didn't help much. They are for 4-1 exhausts that sacrifice midrange for top end. At least those are broadly consistent with each other.

I`m not aware of 4-1 full systems,they all are 4-2-1,pretty much the same as O.E.M`s 4-2-1-2.They don`t sacrifice anything.

I believe that most of maps available thru powercommander.com have been created by Dynojet centers (dealers) all over the world and as such value and quality of mapping will vary.I`ve seen some maps that are totally retarded.Map for full micron system at one point calls for 30 % enrichment .I mean did someone put turbo on that bike ? .

Bottom line,if you want good map you need to take your bike to the tuner who has a clue what he is doing,just becouse the guy is certified Dynojet Tunning center does not mean they have a good idea about mapping.

[XXTi]

I emailed mine to Jason back in June. I believe that the intent was to eventually have an online repository of maps to pick from... Jason???

I have a map for a '99 with Yoshi slipons, a K&N and PAIR block-off. It was made with 87 octane gas. Only got a couple of extra HP and ft/lbs of torque, but bike is now smooth as butta all across the RPM range and I gained a couple of MPG in the process.

I didn't see that one. Jason, do you have it?

[JohnA]

Obviously I'd too be interested in any member's map (for a 99-2000 bird) that is known to work fine, so I can compare it to what I've got.

I have no confidence on the maps posted by Dynojet

[EVLXX]

Eeeerrmmmm... Nope. :icon_wall:

Upon close inspection, the online maps are all over the place. Even compared to the 'full race' ones they are incosistent and random. WTF?

I would expect them to be broadly similar, correlating quite a bit. OK one might have '10' where the other one has '12' (and the stock map has '3') but roughly moving in the same direction.

No chance --- there are even cases where they go the OPPOSITE way (one is adding fuel and the other one taking off fuel, for the same load/rev combo) :icon_duh:

I did create a 'best guess' map and I'm running it now, but do I trust it? :icon_think:

......... so you do have a brain. That's good, and yes there are more "F"ed up maps out there than you can shake a stick at.

And about blocking the Pair-valves: before I read it here I never heard about it. ..., and I am still not exactly clear what the benefit is.

Without blocking off the PAIR vavles.... acturate AFR reading are impossible !

Obviously I'd too be interested in any member's map (for a 99-2000 bird) that is known to work fine, so I can compare it to what I've got.

I have no confidence on the maps posted by Dynojet

Word... I have zero confidence in any maps made by Dyno-jet....

My suggestion.... run the Zero map... and add fuel only in the 5000 and 5500 ranges... and in the 60 - 80 and 100% columns, with a 1-2-3 recpectively.

Because other than that one area..... the Honda ECU does a fantastic job of Correcting itself for the minor mods you have made.

[JohnA]

Without blocking off the PAIR vavles.... acturate AFR reading are impossible !

But the PAIR valves don't work all the time, do they?

They might well be operational only on over-run and idle/low load, in which case they wouldn't affect the range we're interested here.

I'm not 100% sure on this, just going by my experience with other emissions systems like EGR etc.

My suggestion.... run the Zero map... and add fuel only in the 5000 and 5500 ranges... and in the 60 - 80 and 100% columns, with a 1-2-3 recpectively.

Yeah, that's where the volumentric efficiency would be a bit higher, isn't it?

Because other than that one area..... the Honda ECU does a fantastic job of Correcting itself for the minor mods you have made.

I'm not sure how the Honda ECU can 'correct' itself for this.

It has no feedback from closed-loop operation so it has to operate on fixed maps and apply the odd offsets from the knock-sensor activity.

Other ECUs I know try to stay closed-loop as long as they can and they continously adjust the maps. Under certain conditions they even shift to different open-loop maps if they feel that the operating parameters have changed dramatically.

But the Honda ECU has no such feedback (99 model)

[Big Jeff]

Here is my map. It's for a 2000 with micron slip-ons

BigJeff.zip

[XXTi]

Thanks for posting the map Jeff. How did your bike run before and after?

[EVLXX]

Without blocking off the PAIR vavles.... acturate AFR reading are impossible !

But the PAIR valves don't work all the time, do they?

They might well be operational only on over-run and idle/low load, in which case they wouldn't affect the range we're interested here.

I'm not 100% sure on this, just going by my experience with other emissions systems like EGR etc.

My suggestion.... run the Zero map... and add fuel only in the 5000 and 5500 ranges... and in the 60 - 80 and 100% columns, with a 1-2-3 recpectively.

Yeah, that's where the volumentric efficiency would be a bit higher, isn't it?

Because other than that one area..... the Honda ECU does a fantastic job of Correcting itself for the minor mods you have made.

I'm not sure how the Honda ECU can 'correct' itself for this.

It has no feedback from closed-loop operation so it has to operate on fixed maps and apply the odd offsets from the knock-sensor activity.

Other ECUs I know try to stay closed-loop as long as they can and they continously adjust the maps. Under certain conditions they even shift to different open-loop maps if they feel that the operating parameters have changed dramatically.

But the Honda ECU has no such feedback (99 model)

1. Yes the PAIR valves do work ALL the time, as noted by the numbers a recorded on my Dattalogger, but.... as with everything it's variable. Some places in the rpm and load ranges it's greater... and some times it hardly noticable... but it's always there.

Every time the cylinder fires and the exhaust starts down the exhaust pipe it actually creates a Low pressure wave or area behind itself, until it reaches a larger area.(I'm not going to get into that deep, there are books for that) So... opun every exhaust pulse there is a opening of the PAIR valve on that port. How long and how hard varies.

2. It.s not because of volumetric effiiciency (well sort of), but more so the Cam and the Exhaust pipe design. To continue from number one, as the exhaust pressure wave reaches an expansion area and "pops" it cause a return wave back up the pipe it just came down. at 5 to 6 K that pressure wave hits the exhaust valve at the point of Valve overlap, when both the exhaust and intake valves are open at the same time, (Cam design), and can actually push all the way back up into the Intake track... thus greatly affecting the AFR and Volumetric Efficience.

3. Well you right, I screwed up on the delivery there (I'm not the greatest word-smith).... The Honda ECU does not Correct Itself, rather it.... does a very good job of adjusting to what it reads off of the varioius sensors. IF you open up the exhaust, then you could cause a drop in the MAP numbers, telling the ECU that in comparision to the BARO it needs to add more fuel. ( That's really ruff, but the point is there. ) But once again it's limited.... so there are spots like at 5,500 rpm that it just can't fix all the way.... and it needs help.

I hope that helps.

[Big Jeff]

I love it. I noticed quite a difference when you roll-on the throttle. I remember the numbers on the midrange values being alot higher.

Let me know what you think

[XXSTAR]

what is the pair valves. I am going to down load Jason or try to

""My suggestion.... run the Zero map... and add fuel only in the 5000 and 5500 ranges... and in the 60 - 80 and 100% columns, with a 1-2-3 recpectively""

can you tell me a little more about this.

I talk to DJ on the phone they said to run the 0 map

my bike started running very rich it started spitting and coughing, on a 1500 trip at 700 miles I unplug it

it ran ok the rest of the trip.

I might just get a 111 and for get it. but if I can get it back like it was, it ran better than now

[JohnA]

Thanks to BigJeff and MileHi for sharing their maps :icon_clap:

After comparing them with each other and my previous 'composite' map they do appear to be of higher quality than the questionable maps posted by Dynojet.

At least they move in the similar directions, one being slightly richer than the other one.

I'll try them both and see which one works best (although I suspect that the 'seat of pants' dyno will not be able to tell the difference between them)

Thanks again guys, I'm off to upload them now

[MileHi]

Well duh on me... Here's the map for my '99 Bird... Yosh slipons, K&N filter and regular gas...

99Bird.zip

[MTXX]

I have a '99 w. Yoshi slip ons and K&N filter. Which PC do I need?

[MileHi]

Well duh on me... Here's the map for my '99 Bird... Yosh slipons, K&N filter and regular gas...

Lookie here...

I have a '99 w. Yoshi slip ons and K&N filter. Which PC do I need?

The PCII...

[twolfe]

Here is my custom map for a 99 with scorpian slip on and a K&N filter.

Scorpian_K_N.zip

[XXTi]

Thanks for posting the map twolfe. I can't get it to open though with the PowerCommander software. Did I do something wrong or is there a trick to get it working?

[MileHi]

Thanks for posting the map twolfe. I can't get it to open though with the PowerCommander software. Did I do something wrong or is there a trick to get it working?

Never hear of a .DJM file... It should be a .map file.

[twolfe]

I'm using power commander version 3.1.3. It saves the files as a .DJM. It can import .map files, but can't export it. Maybe I'm doing something wrong?