superhawk996 Posted November 1, 2013 Share Posted November 1, 2013 For the first few minutes riding it shifts buttery smooth. As it warms up the shifting gets progressively clunkier. It mostly does it 1st to 2nd, but also into 3rd and a little into 4th, seems to be smooth in 5&6, but I just may not be noticing it. Going from neutral to gear, whether 1st or 2nd, it's also smooth cold and quite a clunk hot. The clutch doesn't drag hot or cold; I can put it in gear on the center stand and the tire doesn't spin, other than an initial spin when I first clunk into gear. It did this on the oil that was in it (unknown type and age) and seems to be about the same with it's new Rotella 15-40. I read somewhere that the clutches were redesigned at some point, but don't know what the reason was or if I should or could replace this one with a later style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhawkxx Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 They did put less clutch plates in the FI models. Don't know about your problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhawkxx Posted November 2, 2013 Share Posted November 2, 2013 I had to look for it but you might find this link useful for your bike. http://www.cbr1100xx.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=31635 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 seems to be about the same with it's new Rotella 15-40. Although I don't fully understand why... I had this same problem when I switched from using Mobil 1 to Rotella 15/40... I am now back to using M1 15/50 and the clunky sticky feel is gone... Now the only time I miss shift is when I have my tennis shoes on and am being lazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted November 4, 2013 Author Share Posted November 4, 2013 I was planning to go M1 15-50 and couldn't find it quickly so I went 15-40 just to get it done. It had a Honda filter so I'm guessing it was a motorcycle spec. oil, but it was a little darkened and the filter showed age so I wanted whatever in there out. I was planning a near future change to full syn. motorcycle spec. 20-50, but I may give the M1 a shot since it worked for you and it's cheaper than what I was eye-balling. I cringe every time it clunks envisioning little particles of metal being stripped away from the gears and floating around in the oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slowrideCX Posted November 4, 2013 Share Posted November 4, 2013 I have used M1 since I got my bike 44, 000 miles ago and never a days problem. You may want to check your cushdrive in the rear wheel though. I replaced mine about 10, 000 miles ago because it was clunking during shifts. The rubber was hard and fit loose in the hub. The new rubber fit tight and no more clunk. I still get it from time to time but it is all me in the way I shift. If I am careful it won't clunk but if I get lazy it has a slight clunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted November 5, 2013 Share Posted November 5, 2013 As slowride pointed out... no need to get motrcycle specific Mobil 1... I have used the automotive stuff from Walmart... for... more years than I can recal with absolution, and I have not had a single complication from said usage. ps. Keep watch, there will soon be a thread in the garage ... about Mobil One 15w50... when I get the result back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted November 5, 2013 Author Share Posted November 5, 2013 The cush drive feels good and tight, but good thought. I used to run the automotive 15-50 in my other bikes and would have again if I'd had easy access to it. With cars going lower and lower in viscosity recommendations the higher weight stuff is getting more scarce. My walmart stopped carrying it :-( so I grabbed my second choice. There wasn't one bottle of anything over 10-40 (except diesel) and it was only the walmart brand of high mileage stuff. It's funny that in the manual under general information, lubrication, maintenance, etc. it repeatedly states to use 10-40 as does the sticker on the bike. 10-40 is the most commonly available motorcycle oil and damn near every bike manufacturer has the same recommendation. Then in the manual under maintenance there's a chart for oil viscosities/temperatures and it shows from 10-30 to 20-50 as acceptable weights. The 10-30 is only good to about 90 degrees, but all the others are good down to freezing or lower....I'd have to be desperate to drive in that shit! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon haney Posted November 7, 2013 Share Posted November 7, 2013 The clunking you are hearing is the gear dogs smacking together due to the difference in speeds between the clutch shaft (input) and output shaft. This is normal. When you are at a complete stop, the output shaft speed is zero, and the input shaft is spinning at roughly 2/3 of engine RPM. When you pull in the clutch, the input shaft starts to slow down. The longer you wait to put the trans in gear, the slower it gets. If the oil is cold, the input shaft slows down faster, thereby reducing the clunk. Thicker oil also cushions better. Once you are moving and as you go up through the gears, the speed difference gets less, and therefore less clunk. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted November 16, 2013 Author Share Posted November 16, 2013 The clunking you are hearing is the gear dogs smacking together due to the difference in speeds between the clutch shaft (input) and output shaft. This is normal. When you are at a complete stop, the output shaft speed is zero, and the input shaft is spinning at roughly 2/3 of engine RPM. When you pull in the clutch, the input shaft starts to slow down. The longer you wait to put the trans in gear, the slower it gets. If the oil is cold, the input shaft slows down faster, thereby reducing the clunk. Thicker oil also cushions better. Once you are moving and as you go up through the gears, the speed difference gets less, and therefore less clunk. I understand the mechanics involved and that some bikes tend to be clunkier than others so I was just wondering if it was an norm for this bike. I've had a few that were just impossible to make smooth because of design (my FZ600 stands out), but most bikes I've had weren't hard to get a smooth shift from. What I have is what I'd call stiction; the clutch doesn't drag at all, but won't really release until there's some load on it. Once it 'breaks free' then it's fine, but it has to do this every time it's disengaged. If I hold the clutch and give it a couple quick revs it loads it just enough that it mostly lets go, holding it at idle it doesn't no matter how long I wait. I assume the extra drag in the gears/bearings on cold oil is slowing it down so I'm going to try better oil in a higher grade and see. The later XX I think has a clutch brake that actually slows/stops the input shaft when the clutch lever is fully pulled, that'd be nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomek Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 The clunking you are hearing is the gear dogs smacking together due to the difference in speeds between the clutch shaft (input) and output shaft. This is normal. When you are at a complete stop, the output shaft speed is zero, and the input shaft is spinning at roughly 2/3 of engine RPM. When you pull in the clutch, the input shaft starts to slow down. The longer you wait to put the trans in gear, the slower it gets. If the oil is cold, the input shaft slows down faster, thereby reducing the clunk. Thicker oil also cushions better. Once you are moving and as you go up through the gears, the speed difference gets less, and therefore less clunk. I The later XX I think has a clutch brake that actually slows/stops the input shaft when the clutch lever is fully pulled, that'd be nice. Yea but it only matters if shifting into first from standing still. Try clutch-less shifting, maybe your technique needs fine retunning. Having said that I`ve used that particular oil in g/f`s bike. Shifting did suck and I drained it next day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XX123 Posted November 16, 2013 Share Posted November 16, 2013 less than 10k on my bike and have noticed that after a good warm it became noticeably difficult to put back in first gear at stoplights. i was theorizing that the clutch fluid was warm and the lines were expanding, therefor reducing the amount of fluid making it to the clutch packs. ill try different oil and see if that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted November 17, 2013 Author Share Posted November 17, 2013 The clunking you are hearing is the gear dogs smacking together due to the difference in speeds between the clutch shaft (input) and output shaft. This is normal. When you are at a complete stop, the output shaft speed is zero, and the input shaft is spinning at roughly 2/3 of engine RPM. When you pull in the clutch, the input shaft starts to slow down. The longer you wait to put the trans in gear, the slower it gets. If the oil is cold, the input shaft slows down faster, thereby reducing the clunk. Thicker oil also cushions better. Once you are moving and as you go up through the gears, the speed difference gets less, and therefore less clunk. I The later XX I think has a clutch brake that actually slows/stops the input shaft when the clutch lever is fully pulled, that'd be nice. Yea but it only matters if shifting into first from standing still. Try clutch-less shifting, maybe your technique needs fine retunning. Having said that I`ve used that particular oil in g/f`s bike. Shifting did suck and I drained it next day. Actually the brake could help as it'd load the clutch a bit and help it break free during the transition, especially 1st to 2nd. I have a high degree of confidence in my technique, but I also know that some equipment requires a different technique to do different things and it's part of why I asked. I've played with it enough now to be fairly certain it's impossible to cleanly shift it so the oil change is next. My previous bikes did well on the 15-40, but none of them had a 9friggin plate clutch, that's a lot of stuff to unstick and slow down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted November 17, 2013 Author Share Posted November 17, 2013 less than 10k on my bike and have noticed that after a good warm it became noticeably difficult to put back in first gear at stoplights. i was theorizing that the clutch fluid was warm and the lines were expanding, therefor reducing the amount of fluid making it to the clutch packs. ill try different oil and see if that helps. Almost certain it's not the line expanding, it would have to have an odd defect. If the shift problem started right after an oil change that could be it. It could be that your clutch brake is worn out, assuming you have a later model with one. I think it was '99 or '00 when they changed the clutch design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomek Posted November 17, 2013 Share Posted November 17, 2013 The clunking you are hearing is the gear dogs smacking together due to the difference in speeds between the clutch shaft (input) and output shaft. This is normal. When you are at a complete stop, the output shaft speed is zero, and the input shaft is spinning at roughly 2/3 of engine RPM. When you pull in the clutch, the input shaft starts to slow down. The longer you wait to put the trans in gear, the slower it gets. If the oil is cold, the input shaft slows down faster, thereby reducing the clunk. Thicker oil also cushions better. Once you are moving and as you go up through the gears, the speed difference gets less, and therefore less clunk. I The later XX I think has a clutch brake that actually slows/stops the input shaft when the clutch lever is fully pulled, that'd be nice. Yea but it only matters if shifting into first from standing still. Try clutch-less shifting, maybe your technique needs fine retunning. Having said that I`ve used that particular oil in g/f`s bike. Shifting did suck and I drained it next day. Actually the brake could help as it'd load the clutch a bit and help it break free during the transition, especially 1st to 2nd. I have a high degree of confidence in my technique, but I also know that some equipment requires a different technique to do different things and it's part of why I asked. I've played with it enough now to be fairly certain it's impossible to cleanly shift it so the oil change is next. My previous bikes did well on the 15-40, but none of them had a 9friggin plate clutch, that's a lot of stuff to unstick and slow down. You don`t need to "unstick" clutch to execute clean shift while the bike is moving is, of course. Going from N into 1st- yes, and the clutch brake could help here. Also on bike like XX were the 1-2 ratio split is large ( around 1.4 ) this particular shift is difficult to execute without using clutch. You can get very clean shifts without using clutch, there are even oem quick shifters kits on some bikes now and on all piggy back ECUs like power commander or bazzas is possible to install one. On bazzas you can adjust kill time vs gear. Clutch plays no role in this scenarios that`s why I don`t think it plays the role in your problem with shifting. Do you use full stroke of clutch lever when shifting gears? Do you close the throttle or just gently roll it when up-shifting ? How is the slack on the drive chain ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted November 18, 2013 Author Share Posted November 18, 2013 The clunking you are hearing is the gear dogs smacking together due to the difference in speeds between the clutch shaft (input) and output shaft. This is normal. When you are at a complete stop, the output shaft speed is zero, and the input shaft is spinning at roughly 2/3 of engine RPM. When you pull in the clutch, the input shaft starts to slow down. The longer you wait to put the trans in gear, the slower it gets. If the oil is cold, the input shaft slows down faster, thereby reducing the clunk. Thicker oil also cushions better. Once you are moving and as you go up through the gears, the speed difference gets less, and therefore less clunk. I The later XX I think has a clutch brake that actually slows/stops the input shaft when the clutch lever is fully pulled, that'd be nice. Yea but it only matters if shifting into first from standing still. Try clutch-less shifting, maybe your technique needs fine retunning. Having said that I`ve used that particular oil in g/f`s bike. Shifting did suck and I drained it next day. Actually the brake could help as it'd load the clutch a bit and help it break free during the transition, especially 1st to 2nd. I have a high degree of confidence in my technique, but I also know that some equipment requires a different technique to do different things and it's part of why I asked. I've played with it enough now to be fairly certain it's impossible to cleanly shift it so the oil change is next. My previous bikes did well on the 15-40, but none of them had a 9friggin plate clutch, that's a lot of stuff to unstick and slow down. You don`t need to "unstick" clutch to execute clean shift while the bike is moving is, of course. Going from N into 1st- yes, and the clutch brake could help here. Also on bike like XX were the 1-2 ratio split is large ( around 1.4 ) this particular shift is difficult to execute without using clutch. You can get very clean shifts without using clutch, there are even oem quick shifters kits on some bikes now and on all piggy back ECUs like power commander or bazzas is possible to install one. On bazzas you can adjust kill time vs gear. Clutch plays no role in this scenarios that`s why I don`t think it plays the role in your problem with shifting. Do you use full stroke of clutch lever when shifting gears? Do you close the throttle or just gently roll it when up-shifting ? How is the slack on the drive chain ? I fully stroke the clutch and generally fully close (or close to it) the throttle briefly. I tried adjusting the clutch lever full out (I always run them full in) and it seemed to help a hair on occasion, but not a definite help. Down shifting I can get a perfect synch. so part of the shifting problem could be whatever I'm doing; either allowing too much or too little deceleration time. Now that I think of it, I've ridden '99 and '00 birds and didn't have this issue. My other bikes I've never had a shifting problem except for one 20+ years ago. Chain is perfect, hub damper feels perfect. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomek Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 Try the following method : first preload the shifter level and then at the same time the pull gently on the clutch level and roll off the throttle. Once you feel the gear clicks in reverse your clutch and throttle actions. When done right you would rarely use full clutch stroke or totally shut off the throttle. 99 and do have iirc better cush drives. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon haney Posted November 18, 2013 Share Posted November 18, 2013 I know I'm a little late rejoining this party, but what part(s) in a Bird is considered a "clutch brake"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted November 19, 2013 Author Share Posted November 19, 2013 I know I'm a little late rejoining this party, but what part(s) in a Bird is considered a "clutch brake"? "Transmission friction damper" It's a hard rubber friction device on the transmission mainshaft that slows/stops the shaft when the clutch is pulled to eliminate the clunk when shifting from neutral into gear. If you hold the clutch a hair too long it'll stop the shaft and if things aren't aligned it won't go into gear, kinda like clicking the lever with the engine off will often result in no gear engagement. I'm not sure the exact way it engages the friction damper, but if you let off a little on the lever it lets go and the clutch output/trans input will start to spin again. It was just designed to eliminate the clunk and make the bike that much more cool. I call it a clutch brake cuz I used to work on big trucks and they have a small friction disc to do the same thing and it's actually called a clutch brake. If you ever see a semi about to take off and it clunks and the cab jumps a hair it's because the driver didn't properly engage the brake before putting it in gear. Picture the same thing that happens on a bike except the moving parts might weigh 50lbs. instead of a few ounces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon haney Posted November 19, 2013 Share Posted November 19, 2013 Hmmm, must be a 97-98 thing. No such thing in either of my '99 Birds. Sounds like a good idea, though. Is this something that can wear out? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXBirdSlapper Posted November 20, 2013 Share Posted November 20, 2013 Ran an automotive 20-50w in my FZR 1000 and immediately got the symptoms you describe. Back to the Rotella 15-40w and immediately gone. I have read that the diesel grades have a zinc compound that is good for the wet clutch design. I run it in all my bikes now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted November 22, 2013 Author Share Posted November 22, 2013 The brake is on the later, not earlier models. I have no idea what the wear rate is, but ridden right it'd probably last forever. Coasting in gear with the clutch in I think would put a lot of wear on it, otherwise it's only going to slide briefly during shifts. I think it only engages at full or close to full stroke, so a partial clutch engagement probably doesn't bring it into play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted November 24, 2013 Share Posted November 24, 2013 Don't think that exist in a bird engine of either model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted November 25, 2013 Author Share Posted November 25, 2013 Don't think that exist in a bird engine of either model. It's somewhere in here I think http://www.hoc.org.uk/gallery/press/1999/1999_CBR1100XX_Super_Blackbird.PDF I played with it some more today and I can get clean shifts without the clutch cold, but not hot so it's definitely something that's changing in the bike. I'll be off playing in the desert for about a week on other stupid fast stuff, but when I come back I'm doing an oil change to see what happens. BTW-thanks to all you guys who've chimed in to try & help me with this! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted November 25, 2013 Share Posted November 25, 2013 I see that just not in the parts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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