The Krypt Keeper Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 how is this project coming along? almost tempted to start browsing ebay for parts.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 I'm close. The 190 rear tire came in yesterday, and I still have all the bearings to do on the ZX-10R wheels. I'm using a set of spacers to move the ZX-10R brake caliper hanger out to the swingarm, and will have to make up some axle spacers as well. I might need a longer rear brake line unless the XX line reaches and can be swapped in. I ordered a ZX-10R CF fender and mounting brackets. I have to work on adjusting the bars correctly and drilling for the locator pins, and routing the front brake lines. I'm hoping to use the stock lines but it's going to be close. The front brake perch is going to be fiddly with the different orientation, I may look into the ZX-12 switchgear to see if it fits the brake master better. Of course, I also have some rewiring/relocation of the HID, cruise, and some other stuff to do before it goes back together... Can't work on it until at least the weekend of the 28th, and I may take the Great Punkin' to RedNeXXt that weekend. *sigh* I really need to just retire, this job is interfering with my recreation way too much... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted April 18, 2012 Share Posted April 18, 2012 Mike....here is a link to all the parts you need in one bundle to do what your trying to accomplish. >> Transform your CBR1100XX here Seriously though....sounds like a really fun project. Any pics? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted April 18, 2012 Author Share Posted April 18, 2012 Mike....here is a link to all the parts you need in one bundle to do what your trying to accomplish. >> Transform your CBR1100XX here Seriously though....sounds like a really fun project. Any pics? I didn't even have to hover on the link to know what it was. Sorry, it isn't for me. I would spend a fortune getting it the way I want it, and the XX is *almost* there. I did like the Concours I saw at the dealership the other day... shaft drive, nice integration on the bags, etc. Maybe pics next week, but it isn't much to look at right now. It would give some people an alternative perspective of the already well-documented process I'm following though, so I'll be sure to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Krypt Keeper Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 sounds good Mike. I stood downstairs last night just looking at my XX and thinking about redoing a few things. Probably will hold off right now and possibly start on it later this yr. Hey Dave, rode the ZX14 Sunday. no way in hell would I pay $15k for that much ugliness. Yeah the motor is nice and pulls great cause it has too. Something that ugly doesn't sell fast without some help. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon haney Posted April 19, 2012 Share Posted April 19, 2012 sounds good Mike. I stood downstairs last night just looking at my XX and thinking about redoing a few things. Probably will hold off right now and possibly start on it later this yr. Hey Dave, rode the ZX14 Sunday. no way in hell would I pay $15k for that much ugliness. Yeah the motor is nice and pulls great cause it has too. Something that ugly doesn't sell fast without some help. Am I the only one that thinks it looks way better than the older 14 (minus the stock exhaust, of course)? Still not as sexy as a Bird, but I kinda like that shade of green......and the flames. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted April 19, 2012 Author Share Posted April 19, 2012 sounds good Mike. I stood downstairs last night just looking at my XX and thinking about redoing a few things. Probably will hold off right now and possibly start on it later this yr. Hey Dave, rode the ZX14 Sunday. no way in hell would I pay $15k for that much ugliness. Yeah the motor is nice and pulls great cause it has too. Something that ugly doesn't sell fast without some help. Am I the only one that thinks it looks way better than the older 14 (minus the stock exhaust, of course)? Still not as sexy as a Bird, but I kinda like that shade of green......and the flames. Yep, you're the only one. I think the black looks best, the side grillz don't show up as badly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 I like the looks of the ZX14, but I liked the looks of the Hayabusa from the start, too. The BMW S1000RR, on the other hand, has got to be the ugliest thing to assault my eyes since Rosie O'Donnell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhawkxx Posted April 21, 2012 Share Posted April 21, 2012 The BMW S1000RR, on the other hand, has got to be the ugliest thing to assault my eyes since Rosie O'Donnell. Really, Rosie??? I think the 14 is stone ugly but no way I would ever go that low to call it Rosie ugly, man. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEye Posted April 22, 2012 Share Posted April 22, 2012 A few updates on my ZXXX (well, 1/2 ZXXX since I only did the front). I have a few thousand km on it now and, to the extent that I can tell without stripping the front end down, the steering head bearings are still fine. I can't feel or hear any play or notch. Mind you, there was a bad notch in the stock bearings that wasn't apparent until I had it stripped down to bare forks, but the bike doesn't have the tendency to wobble all over at walking speeds like it did then. Suspension setup has been interesting. At the stock preload setting I had close to 50mm rider sag, 15mm free sag, but increasing the preload a bit made the front rock hard. A zip-tie on the fork slider showed that despite the big sag numbers I was getting very little front suspension travel, even braking hard over bumps. I did a little digging and found this article: Ask the Geek: Fork Top-Out Springs Your abnormal guide to things abnormal From the October, 2010 issue of Sport Rider By Andrew Trevitt I recently purchased a 2008 ZX-14. I had no problems getting the shock set up but when it came to adjusting the fork I was completely puzzled by the results I was getting. By running the adjusters through the extremes of adjustment my useable range of sag was between 42mm and 56mm. Typically, I set sag to 30mm front and rear. I have set sag on the numerous sportbikes I have owned over the past 26 years and have never encountered anything like this. I searched the Internet and the only real information I found was on Race Tech's site. The info leads me to believe I have encountered what's known as "top-out" springs. I have read the Race Tech tip "Sport Bike Relaxed Preload" but it is still unclear to me how I go about setting up fork sag properly on this bike. Race Tech says the bike has a long top-out spring and "this requires 20mm relaxed preload minimum". Does this mean I just deduct 20mm from my calculations to get the correct sag? I am not sure how to go about setting the fork sag on this particular bike, could you enlighten me? Dan Forest Goffstown, NH Yes, the ZX-14 has long, soft top-out springs in the front fork, and that does make it difficult to set sag properly. Originally, top-out springs were intended to provide a soft buffer for the fork to fully extend against when - for example - the front wheel came off the ground. But over the last few years, other advantages have been found by using long, soft top-out springs in both the fork and shock. The chart shows how the overall spring rate in a fork is affected by the addition of a top-out spring. The rate near full extension changes as the top-out spring compresses, effectively working against the main spring's extension. The advantage can be seen here: with a conventional setup, it takes a significant amount of force (20kg in our example) to compress the fork at all. This means that as you accelerate out of a corner, if there is less than 40kg of weight on your front wheel (20kg on each fork tube) the suspension won't budge. This leads to the front end skipping over bumps and potentially causing headshake. A fork with long top-out springs will move with any force applied at all, making it much more compliant over small bumps accelerating out of corners. Race Tech defines relaxed preload as how much the spring would be compressed when installed if the top-out spring were to remain fully extended. But the top-out spring compresses when the main spring is installed, meaning you would have to disassemble your fork to make these measurements and check. How the main spring and top-out spring interact depends on the rate of each, so there is no set rule to use when setting sag. You will certainly want more than 30mm to account for the top-out spring, but not necessarily 20mm more. In these cases it's best to set sag based on how your bike handles. Put a zip tie on a fork tube to make sure the fork is not bottoming, and experiment with front preload settings to see how your bike reacts to the changes. Pay particular attention to its behavior exiting corners, as the other danger is that the fork will still top out under acceleration. Record your sag numbers as you go, so that if you start to make internal changes you'll have a baseline to work from. Note that your ZX-14 also has a top-out spring in the shock; the same concept applies to the rear shock under braking, when the rear wheel is skimming over the pavement. You may want to experiment with your rear sag setting as well So in the end I used the zip tie to monitor suspension travel, used hard braking over a big-ass bump to simulate a worst-case scenario (ie, max front fork compression) for normal riding, and adjusted preload until I had 10mm travel in reserve in case of giant potholes or riding off an embankment or something. Still playing with compression and rebound but at this point the front end feels very well planted without being too unpleasant on rough roads (which are most of them around here, unfortunately). Of course that just underscores how bad the rear is . . . I've been reluctant to sink money into a rear end I'm planning on replacing entirely, but I think I'll have to get a new shock soon. And I don't think an aftermarket XX shock will be hard to sell in the future when I get around to a rear end swap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEye Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 Some more info on ZX-14 suspension from a tuner. Below is a summary of the standard suspension carried out by UK suspension specialists Maxton. Thought you might find it useful: KAWASAKI ZZR1400 - 2007 to 2009 FRONT The front forks on the ZZR1400 are upside down with radial brakes. The springs in the forks are a little on the soft side, depending on your rider weight and how hard you brake. The biggest problem in the forks is in the damping. The forks do not have enough rebound damping, this means that when you let go of the brake, the front of the bike springs back at you too fast. This causes the bike to run wide in and out of corners. It also makes the bike difficult to flick left to right quickly. The forks on the ZZR1400 have too much compression damping. This makes the front of the bike “kick” off small bumps in the road, it can make the ride uncomfortable on the wrists and at high speeds makes the front a bit nervous. We revalve and respring the forks to suit your rider weight and what you are using the bike for. We fit springs to suit your rider weight and we increase the rebound damping and reduce the compression damping. This makes the ride much more compliant and makes the bike easier to ride. As part of the conversion we also increase the range of damping adjustment in the rebound and compression damping. The conversion also increases the “feel” of the front end. The conversion costs £280.00 + V.A.T. We also fit new forks seals as part of the conversion, this costs an extra £20.00 + V.A.T for the pair. REAR The standard rear unit on the ZZR1400 is not very good quality. The range of damping in the compression and rebound damping adjusters is very small. This makes setting the shock up very difficult. The spring the unit is too soft for the average rider weight, which causes the bike to sit down under power and run wide. The shock is also under damped on compression and rebound. This means there is not much support or control from the damping. We can respring the standard unit fitting a harder spring to suit your rider weight. This will help support the bike, but when the shock extends it will return even quicker. To respring the shock costs £70.00 + V.A.T. The standard unit is not a shock that we rebuild. We supply our own Maxton unit, it’s fully adjustable via a shim stack system and has a spring measured to suit your riders weight and for what purpose the bike is used for. There are two types of unit we supply, the first is a piggyback remote unit which costs £520.00 + V.A.T. Its adjustable for rebound damping, high and low speed compression damping, preload and ride height adjustment. The other unit we supply also has a piggy back remote reservoir but has high, medium and low speed compression damping adjustment. The unit also has rebound damping and a ride height adjuster. The unit is called the GP7 Maxton shock absorber and costs £620.00 + V.A.T. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveK Posted April 23, 2012 Share Posted April 23, 2012 I like the looks of the ZX14, but I liked the looks of the Hayabusa from the start, too. The BMW S1000RR, on the other hand, has got to be the ugliest thing to assault my eyes since Rosie O'Donnell. +1 Love the 14 and the Busa from the get-go. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEye Posted May 1, 2012 Share Posted May 1, 2012 Another possible option for the top steering stem bearing: RNA4906 35x47x17 Needle Bearing Much sturdier than the thin section ball bearing, no need to stack 2 of them so half the cost . . . don't see why this wouldn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TeXTrain99 Posted May 2, 2012 Share Posted May 2, 2012 C/mon Mike, hurry up...OzarXX is coming up in a few short weeks...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted May 2, 2012 Author Share Posted May 2, 2012 Grrr... I'm out of town that week, and OzarXX was the one I really wanted to go to this year. I should make some progress this weekend, I'll take photos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted May 6, 2012 Author Share Posted May 6, 2012 Okay, so I got to do some more assembly today. First, to recap, I bought a set of 2008 (EDIT: 2007) ZX-10R wheels off eBay. Except for the bearings in the rear wheel being totally roached, they weren't bad - polished edges and all. I had the new take-off ZX-14 rotors that I bolted up, and I picked up a SuperSprox 45-tooth sprocket for a ZX-12 (the 10 uses a 525 chain, that ain't gonna work). New bearings and seals went in the rear wheel ( :icon_wave: thanks Scott!). The fork installation has been straightforward so far, with the exception of the stuff others have mentioned - namely, finding a solution for the key and the stops - I haven't dealt with them yet. I was fortunate to source the correct tapered bearing for the bottom of the triple (not an All Balls!), and the three 5mm radial bearings sit atop the stem in their unholy arrangement. I may try RedEye's latest discovery, the RNA4906, as the aesthetics of the stacked bearings and random shims is... well, inelegant. Unless Alan gets his bearing cup adapter solution perfected... I just couldn't get used to the 14's fender. Fortunately, a ZX-10R fender swap isn't uncommon. I found a dude on the ZX boards who makes an adapter bracket to mount a ZX-10R front fender to the ZX-14 forks. Yeah, I could have made something. Yeah, it was too expensive. But for $60 I didn't have to run back and forth between Home Depot, Lowe's, and Grainger to get the nuts/bolts and stuff - it probably would have been close to a day of work including the running around, so I bought 'em. My day is worth way more than $60. When I started to look at fenders, I found that the 10R's fender is a 3-piece ordeal, and not cheap even used on eBay. So I talked myself into a CF fender from China. It arrived in a wooden framed box, and is a thing of beauty. Pictures don't do it justice. I hope the UV coating is good, because I will hate to see this thing turn yellow from the sun. The back end is where I did things a little differently. I really wanted to avoid having to find a machinist/welder to massage the caliper bracket, and I found a guy offing a setup that swapped ZX-10R wheels onto a 14 - really cheap. The left side lines up properly with the stock ZX-10R spacer, but there are all kinds of games to be played to make the caliper bracket work. I ended up using a 10R caliper and bracket, and some aluminum spacers and longer bolts from the 10/14 conversion to get the caliper to "stand off" the bracket far enough so that the bracket properly engages the XX swingarm lug. Other than the caliper, the only things I used from the kit are the aluminum spacers and the extended bolts, so I may re-source the bolts and have my buddy make the spacers so I can sell the kit on the ZX board, sans the 10R caliper. The spacers can be seen at the top, above the axle. As you can also see, the axle needs quite the spacer between the stock 10R right-side spacer and the relocated caliper bracket. What to do? Hmmm... seems the additional spacer needed is the same size as the stock left hand spacer (why I have an extra one of these, I don't know). And I needed a teensy bit of take-up outboard of the caliper bracket, between the caliper and the swingarm. A left-side XX axle washer fits the bill. Yeah, it's a little fiddly to assemble, and I may have a welder tack the spacers together - or one to the caliper bracket - and have him lay a bead on the right side of the bracket and file it down so I don't need the washer on the outboard side. I stole an XX brake line to go from the 10R caliper to the rear MC, as the 10R's line was a little short. Man, the 190 looks like a lot of meat! I still have things like routing front brake lines, balancing wheels/tires, messing about with the adjustable handlebar positioning, getting the front brake MC to play nice with the throttle/switchgear, bleeding brakes, mounting the front brake res, bolts for the front fender, adjusting the forks, figuring out a solution to the key switch (I cut the 14's "legs" on the upper triple to fit the XX key switch, just have to drill and tap) as well as the fork stops. I hope to make some additional progress tomorrow, but as of now, it is a rolling chassis again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Very nice! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Another possible option for the top steering stem bearing: RNA4906 35x47x17 Needle Bearing Much sturdier than the thin section ball bearing, no need to stack 2 of them so half the cost . . . don't see why this wouldn't work. NO won't work, you can not tighten the top nut on to anything that will turn like you can with the inner race of a ball bearing. Sorry I have been tied up and when I saw this it was on my phone and unable to post. If what I said is not clear ask an I will try harder. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 Have I mentioned,,,,that I think an 2000 / 2001 Sp1 RCV 51 tree may be an exact replacement for the xx frame to zx14 fork using the same stock bearings and key? And all in all, may be cheaper new? Maybe I did,, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted May 6, 2012 Author Share Posted May 6, 2012 Have I mentioned,,,,that I think an 2000 / 2001 Sp1 RCV 51 tree may be an exact replacement for the xx frame to zx14 fork using the same stock bearings and key? And all in all, may be cheaper new? Maybe I did,, If you did, I missed it. Not like it's a huge loss to backtrack some. OK, so... the entire RC51 triple/stem/bearings? Or just the upper with the remainder of the tree from the 14? If I can do some experimentation to move the swap forward some and simplify/perfect it after all the hard work and research y'all have done, I'm in! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEye Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 NO won't work, you can not tighten the top nut on to anything that will turn like you can with the inner race of a ball bearing. Right, got excited when I found another bearing with right dimensions and forgot the obvious, that this type of bearing doesn't have a separately rotating inner race. Have I mentioned,,,,that I think an 2000 / 2001 Sp1 RCV 51 tree may be an exact replacement for the xx frame to zx14 fork using the same stock bearings and key? And all in all, may be cheaper new? Maybe I did,, How about 04-07 CBR 1000RR triples? Not sure about the ignition but the bearings are the same. Rake is probably different, but the geometry isn't going to be stock XX with ZX-14 triples anyway. 1000rr parts are common and cheap, RC51 parts not so much, especially Sp1. Anyway, I think we need a sticky with everyone's front end swap info and insights. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEye Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 OK, so... the entire RC51 triple/stem/bearings? Or just the upper with the remainder of the tree from the 14? You'd need the whole RC51 setup. If you just have the upper, you're still stuck with a ZX stem that's too long and the wrong diameter for a stock bearing. Plus, the fork tube offset and angle are probably not the same between the 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IcePrick Posted May 6, 2012 Author Share Posted May 6, 2012 OK, so... the entire RC51 triple/stem/bearings? Or just the upper with the remainder of the tree from the 14? You'd need the whole RC51 setup. If you just have the upper, you're still stuck with a ZX stem that's too long and the wrong diameter for a stock bearing. Plus, the fork tube offset and angle are probably not the same between the 2. I couldn't imagine that the offset could be the same, and I figured there was no way to make up for the oversize stem. Wishful thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedEye Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 I just couldn't get used to the 14's fender. Fortunately, a ZX-10R fender swap isn't uncommon. I found a dude on the ZX boards who makes an adapter bracket to mount a ZX-10R front fender to the ZX-14 forks. Yeah, I could have made something. Yeah, it was too expensive. But for $60 I didn't have to run back and forth between Home Depot, Lowe's, and Grainger to get the nuts/bolts and stuff - it probably would have been close to a day of work including the running around, so I bought 'em. My day is worth way more than $60. Playing MacGuyver/Mad Scientist is how I spend most of my free time, so that would be a day well spent for me A lot of the -14 fender's width comes from the trim pieces with the little fins; I took mine off (2 screws each side iirc). Of course now it looks unfinished, but that matches the rest of the BeaterBird. It can stay that way until I decide what I'm doing with it . . . I don't really like any of the options so another overly ambitious project might be required. I talked myself into a CF fender from China. It arrived in a wooden framed box, and is a thing of beauty. Pictures don't do it justice. I hope the UV coating is good, because I will hate to see this thing turn yellow from the sun. Don't take the chance, 303 Aerospace Protectant is your friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted May 6, 2012 Share Posted May 6, 2012 What I know. I was able to modify the stem location of a sp1 top to fit the zx14 lower. So the width of the forks is the same and diameter. The hole was too small but the back wall of the hole was in the correct location. Had enough meat. After I did bore the hole in the location, it dawned on me the hole was about the same as the xx, so it would move the forks forward from what the zx is. Need to check the bearing numbers on Ron Ares.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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