Lynx60 Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Just had my new Metzler M-1 Sportecs mounted this afternoon, and the dealer asked me a question I never heard before: "Nitrogen gas or regular air?" At first I was baffled, but then he explained that most of the sport riders here in Taiwan use nitrogen in their tires, the advantage being that nitrogen does not expand under heat like air does. Hence your contact patch doesn't diminish as tire heat rises. I had him put 42lbs f/r as normal. Anyone else running nitorgen gas in their tires? Any other pros & cons about running it? Lynx60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molson309 Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 As I've heard it explained, typical compressed air contains a lot of water vapor. It's the water vapor that affects the expansion characteristics under heat. Since nitrogen is for all practical purposes moisture free, you avoid the problems that WV in your tires can cause. Taking care to fill your tires with air from a good source will come close to the same result. Installing a condensate trap or drier on an air compressor can make a big difference. Face it, even if you fill with nitrogen eventually you're going to have to top off the tire with air... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaine Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Where did you get your tires installed? I've never had anyone ask me if I wanted nitrogen instead of regular air. Sounds like something exotic to install and be able to brag about. Did it cost extra? If so how much and I wonder how much to get it topped off when the pressure falls? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhawkxx Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Nitrogen is lighter than air so it should decrease unsprung weight. :idea: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXTi Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 The nitrogen will expand with heat at almost the same rate as air. After all, air is mostly nitrogen (76%). Both nitrogen and air behave as "ideal gasses" for all practical purposes and expand/contract in direct proportion to temperature. I think Molson309 has the most practical reason to use nitrogen in tires, but a lot of the bottled nitrogen is not dry and still carries some water vapor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeloXXiraptor Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Air consists of about 79% nitrogen already, the remainder being oxygen ~21%, unless you're in L.A., and some trace gases. So, I'm kinda skeptical about what the dealer claimed if it was attributable solely to being pure nitrogen. All similar-density gases expand at fairly predictable and calculable rates, so one pure gas over another should have very little effect, unless it's heavier-than-air (or any of the major components of air) such as argon gas (argon would increase the apparent weight of the bike, too...loss of horsepower!!!) The presence of moisture making a difference is more plausible, but you would have to get the water pretty hot to have it vaporize (boil) and expand enough, as a gas, so as to dramatically effect the internal pressure of the tire and the tire shape. Does the gas inside a tire actually get to greater than 100 degrees Celsius (212 degrees Fahrenheit) where water boils? The boiling point would be elevated even more because the pressure is greater than 1 atmosphere inside of the tires! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Nitrogen WILL expand less than regular shop air, due to the absence of moisture (nitrogen molecules will not carry water vapor). We used to use nitrogen when we were racing. If anything, it's consistent in it's expansion, whereas "air" can change from tank to tank, or city to city, or even day to day on it's moisture content. Besides, nitrogen is cheap as hell, and all the aircraft use it. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sprack Posted January 3, 2004 Share Posted January 3, 2004 Why not helium then? Similar characteristics being an inert gas and it's even lighter. Hydrogen, now that'd be awesome....yeah. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXTi Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 Whoops!! :oops: You're right. Air is about 79% Nitrogen. Typo on my part. There IS a small amount of water in typical bottled nitrogen from your local welding supply house however. Also, nitrogen would expand less than air only if there was a significant amount of water, oil or other contaminates in the air. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynx60 Posted January 4, 2004 Author Share Posted January 4, 2004 Thanks guys for the feedback about the nitrogen. Blaine, I got the tires installed here in Taipei, Taiwan, at a Metzler dealership that also doubles as a motorcycle dealership. There was no extra change for the nitrogen, and I get free top-offs anytime. Maybe the dealer regards this as a cheap form of customer relations that keeps the customer coming back for free top-offs and other things. All I know is that he offers it to everyone who buys sport tires from him. I tried the new tires today and pushed them pretty hard after scrubbing them in. To me, there was a noticeable big difference between the OEM Bridgestone BT057s and my new Metzler M-1 Sportecs, but in all honesty I probably wouldn't know any difference if my new tires were filled with regular air, nitrogen, or fish farts. Lynx60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampNut Posted January 4, 2004 Share Posted January 4, 2004 On a different subject... 42psi is very high for sport riding, and will also make the bike ride harshly. You might get slightly higher tire life at this pressure, at the loss of traction and comfort. Most tires work best at 36-40 psi on this bike, with only the Avons working well at 40. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynx60 Posted January 5, 2004 Author Share Posted January 5, 2004 SwampNut: Thanks for your comments about air pressure. Yes, the bike does ride a bit harsh at 42psi f/r, especially on choppy or bumpy roads. I got the 42psi f/r settings from that little sticker that Honda pastes on the rear part of the chain guard. What, in your opinion, would be a more suitable tire pressure for my new Sportecs? 40psi f/r? I'm no expert in these matters and my riding style is probably similar to most owners of an XX, a few moments of high speed blasts down the highways, but mostly carving corners through tight twisties in Taiwan's mountain roads. This is my first experiment with a tire different than the OEM Bridgestone BT057, so I would be most thankful for your advice. Lynx60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampNut Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 That's the maximum tire pressure, and also what will guarantee that the tire will survive at 180 MPH for an extended time. I've run the stockers to 180 at 38PSI just fine for about 10 minutes, and Avons at 40 rear/38 front. You should experiment at 36, 38, and 40. See what you think of the ride and stick. This should be measured cold, IE, the bike not ridden far (1/2 mile or less at low speeds). I've not used the Sportec, but I will guess that maximum grip will be at 34f/36r, and a good compromise would probably be 36/38. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
knight Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 The Nitrogen in tyres originated from Motorsport use in Formula 1 the teams found thet the moisture in the air would collect on the inner tyre under hut conditions and unbalance the wheel, which at 220Mph is a bit of a problem!.....its a race thing only where you are putting serious heat into the tyre, I doubt if you will notice the difference on the road....but hey its something to brag about down the pub.....just dont try it on the chicks :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blkbrdrydr Posted January 5, 2004 Share Posted January 5, 2004 A number of years ago, a Metzeler rep explained that the correct pressure for Metzeler tires is whatever cold psi allows the tire pressure to increase 10% when it's nice and hot. Here's how he told me to find the correct cold pressure: If the hot psi is less than 10% higher than the cold psi, your cold pressure is too high and needs to be lowered. If the hot is more than 10% higher than the cold pressure, the cold is too low and needs to be increased. It's a little bit of effort to come up with the correct number the first time but Metzeler seemed to believe in a "hands-on" approach to personalizing tires to each person's individual riding style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
erixx Posted January 14, 2004 Share Posted January 14, 2004 yeah, interesting stuff! But also consider that not all pressure guages are accurate.... I bought myself a digital one, sometimes there's a 2-3 points difference with what the petrol stations one says! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted January 15, 2004 Share Posted January 15, 2004 sometimes there's a 2-3 points difference with what the petrol stations one says! You'd be lucky if they were all that close. The "pencil" type pressure gauges are the worst, and the digital are definitely the most accurate throughout their range. You can buy some really good needle type gauges, but they can be pretty expensive $40-60, and if you drop them once, they're junk. Roadgear sells a really nice one (digital) for about $20. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cstucker45 Posted January 22, 2004 Share Posted January 22, 2004 NASCAR USES NITROGEN, SO IT MUST BE BETTER. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXMAN Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 It is used in aircraft tires and planes are very heavy with high landing speeds. I don't think it would hurt but I'm not sure if it is worth the trouble. :cycle: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeloXXiraptor Posted February 19, 2004 Share Posted February 19, 2004 Rob...is it dried nitrogen? Could any water in the gas freeze and cause problems? Chris...since the atmosphere is 79% nitrogen...and since there can be such incredible humidity in this atmosphere, why can't there be water molecules in a nitrogen gas sample? Both nitrogen gas and oxygen gas are soluble in aqueous systems (like your bloodstream...). I don't see the connection between nitrogen gas and exclusion of water. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXMAN Posted March 4, 2004 Share Posted March 4, 2004 I'll find out when I go to work saturday. :bike: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
revlimitbounce Posted March 6, 2004 Share Posted March 6, 2004 Just had my new Metzler M-1 Sportecs mounted this afternoon, and the dealer asked me a question I never heard before: "Nitrogen gas or regular air?" At first I was baffled, but then he explained that most of the sport riders here in Taiwan use nitrogen in their tires, the advantage being that nitrogen does not expand under heat like air does. Hence your contact patch doesn't diminish as tire heat rises.I had him put 42lbs f/r as normal. Anyone else running nitorgen gas in their tires? Any other pros & cons about running it? Lynx60 I used to race Formula Ford, FF2000 and a few F. Atlantic cars and spots cars and we always used nitrogen to fill tires because it was far more stable and predictable under thrermal variances (cold tires before practice, hot tires during race). I think even the NASCAR are using it now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXMAN Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 I found this on Nascar web site. Most of the teams remove the air from the tires and replace it with nitrogen. Compressed nitrogen contains less moisture than compressed air. When the tire heats up, moisture in the tire vaporizes and expands, causing the pressure inside the tire to increase. Even small changes in tire pressure can noticeably affect the handling of the car. By using nitrogen instead of air, the teams have more control over how much the pressure will increase when the tires heat up. I was not able to talk to a mechanic at work they were to busy how ever the nitogen bottles use to fill aircraft tires are labeled compressed nitrogen un 1066. Hope this helps. :patriot: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Herc driver Posted March 9, 2004 Share Posted March 9, 2004 Aircraft tires are filled with nitrogen simply because it's completely inert. In an environment with so much heat and fuel, it's easy and cheap to remove compressed air from the equation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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