Northman Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 http://www.vandmracing.com/projects.asp?PAGEID=4 Read that article, and let me know if you're still worried about the structural integrity of an overbored engine. Honda commissioned V&M to build 50 such bikes, that came with a Honda warranty. Keep in mind the CBR954 was derived from the original CBR900, which is essentially the same block, but each new model getting a larger and larger bore. Engineers recognize future needs may require larger displacement, so when designing a new engine, a small amount of extra room may be left just for that purpose. Sure, the engine may be 5-10 mm wider than is absolutely necessary, but it would save re-designing a complete set of crankcases just to accomodate a minor cc increase in a future model. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggenpwr Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 But check out this site for big bore kits and notice that the better kits have new high tech bore barrels included to avoid reducing engine strength. http://www.tts-performance.com/bigborepage...46a701cc2c06103 Think about that and that the J&E Piston kit lacks these bore barrels, and ask yourself, are you sure that the V&M and other 1200 models used the J&E Piston kits, or did they use kits with new bore barrels or did they plate the sleeves for added strength and/or to reduce friction??? Can you answer these questions for certain? If not, you don't have to guess. Instead, try contacting the 1200 model builders if you haven't done so. Thereby you will be getting a hedge on what problems might crop up and how to avoid them ahead of time. You might also find that 1137cc was the most Honda engineers thought they could bore out the basic engine block they were starting with, or not. All I'm saying is that we don't know for sure, at least from what I was able to dig up, whether there are problems to watch out for. One clue though suggests that there will be -- it is that the over bore kit itself only takes the engine up by 60 cc, which is only 15 cc per cylinder. The caution used to minimize the over bore to only 15 cc (by 2 mm widening of the piston, no stroke was added) is, ahem, worrisome. It is some indication that the designers were dealing with a minimum allowance of over engineering. I could be way off base; but what if V&M used stronger bore barrel inserts, or some other accommodation to avoid weakening the cylinder walls? And why not just find out one way or the other first. It could save you a lot of head aches in the long run. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggenpwr Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 duplicate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggenpwr Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 At this website -- you will find a list of what it really takes to re-bore an XX and get a real job done. Notice the RE-SLEEVING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So, man, how is my 2 cents being way past my expertise when I'm just asking the right questions. Here's proof -- you imba-silly person. Okay, go ahead and do your own rebore with a $400 kit, and blow your bike up!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just remember this: I WON THIS BATTLE AND HERE'S PROOF!!!! A list of the real beans... Okay, go ahead and cry now, booh, hooh! :cry: :cry: :cry: ________________________________________________ http://www.bigccracing.com/welcome.asp?page=46 Kent Race Cams Ported and Gas Flowed Cylinder Head Slotted Sprockets Heavy Duty Valve Springs 1200cc Pistons Rebore Titanium Retainers 1mm Oversized Valves 3 Angle Valve Seats 998 Wiseco Pistons Re-sleeved Upper Case Rebore Genuine Honda Parts and Fluids Labour Total ride in / ride out cost £2,750+VAT Stage 4 Motor Tune: Kent Race Cams Ported and Gas Flowed Cylinder Head Slotted Sprockets Heavy Duty Valve Springs Titanium Retainers 1200cc Pistons Rebore 1mm Oversized Valves 3 Angle Valve Seats Re-sleeved Upper Case Falicon Con Rods Falicon Billet Crank Genuine Honda Parts and Fluids Labour Total ride in / ride out cost £4,995+VAT Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XX4me Posted December 12, 2003 Author Share Posted December 12, 2003 Sorry but just because they post something on the net doesn't make them an expert. Have you ever had an XX motor apart? Refering back to your post about Haynes the bird has cast in sleeves. If you want to talk about reducing structural integrity look at an XX engine block and think about boring the original sleeve out and continuing to remove metal so as to be able to resleeve. Ain't gonna work there won't be enough aluminium left between the cylinder and coolent passage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted December 13, 2003 Share Posted December 13, 2003 I've said my peace, and I'm done with this thread. Thanks for the help, XX4Me, and Rockme. I guess we lost the battle, and we all don't know what we're talking about................. :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggenpwr Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 You know there's nothing wrong with modding your heart out and taking the risk yourself. However, you guys just don't get it when it comes to safety and the whole world potentially reading these things. So here goes! Dear Rockmeup, Man, that peg lowering stuff was just way too dangerous. You got some balls to post that. For if 400 read it and 40 try it then 4 -- will crash their bikes on it, and one most probably has suffered very serious injuries. You know why? All sorts of out of whack things happen with those NON-ENGINEERED PEGS: boots catch, kickstands get caught, brake pedal gets toe slipped and foot caught under brake pedal -- because pedal now too far away... Man, it's a hazard for the unwarry, amateur do-it-yourselfer. And for the guy who's in the hospital, well... You'd never get it reported back to you because, he's now eating his breakfast through a straw and doesn't know his own name. Don't you get it, buddy, that you are messing with a F**king system????? When you change one part of an integrated whole the rest goes out of balance and the potential for disaster is just as sure as Murphy's law, to wit, if something CAN go wrong it WILL go wrong. And so too is the danger of the head work contemplated by this thread because you are ignoring the rest of the engine system. You just can't go around working on one piece and unbalancing the rest -- without risking disaster. That's why the professional engine upgraders at the above site went to great lengths to re-balance the engine. They upgraded the clutch springs and the valve springs and strengthened the cylinder sleeves just to name a few. Lastly, the XX's engine was state of the art in 1997, being the first to be virtually vibe free using a twin counterbalancer and centralizing mass by eliminating all extraneous weight that was safe to eliminate. Now some hacker comes along and says stick in a few stronger parts to get more power but ignore the total design of the whole balanced system. At the very least -- you will be reducing the useful life of the a 100,000 mile engine to 20,000 miles and at the worst you will cause an internal failure which depending on when it happens could cost you and others who follow you -- BIG TIME. Now, I hadn't planned on getting preachy here. I had planned to only add one comment to this thread, but you guys just didn't see what absolute fools you are as viewed by the engineering world, and that blindness is potenially ultra-hazardous to be sure. So, I felt and still feel compelled to give you this warning here. Which in summary is this: when dealing with super technical complex systems stick to tried and true mods or just comfort/cosmetic ones, especially when that system (here read engine) if toyed with wrongly can bury you. I know I sound like your father, but someone has to browbeat some sense into your reckless heads! :sad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbirdxx2000 Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Don'nt forget to post your 1/4 mile time and MPH :grin: and can guess your MPH based on your project, but what the hell do I know :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomek Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 You are gonna be fine with 2mm overbore,it is not gonna to blow up or anything like that.Stock motor makes reliable 220 hp with turbo,it is overengineered,60 ccm of extra displacement is not going to kill it. XX uses ceramic liners and I understand there is a room for 2mm overbore .No need for new liners or replating. Also J.E. or Wiseco are a forget pistons,stockers are cast,less quality pieces I think, so durability is not compromised in this area. With big bore valves are effectivelly moved 1 mm from cylinder bores and that improves filling,further enhancing power gains. I would jump compression to 12.2-12.5 and set squish to 0.8 mil. Don`t use that awful Cometic gasket. Factories know that does not matter how much displacement somebody,somewhere is going to put big bore on the bike,so they leave an extra room between bores.Or they can do it on their own and charge us more for "totally" new model. Factory engineers are not all knowing Gods,that is why there are flying pistons in R&D dyno rooms.Try and error is a part of development. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted December 14, 2003 Share Posted December 14, 2003 Well answered, Joe. :worship: I don't remember ever stating I was going to "jam in 2mm oversize pistons, and see what happens", so correct me if I'm wrong. I'm building a 1195cc version of my 2000 CBR1100XX, with some other internal engine mods to make the "system" work as a whole. I'll leave out the small details, as I'd like to keep some of this to myself. The results will speak for themselves, too. I've built literally hundreds of engines. Probably half of them were modified in some way, with quite a few modified to a large extent. I've seen failures, but only once did an engine not make it into the vehicle before it had to be "rebuilt". This engine had the wrong spark plugs installed (by the owner), then was subjected to a rookie operating the dyno who felt he should try and stall the engine (at a given rpm) to properly measure it's output. He melted 3 pistons in the process, and the electrodes off of 5 plugs. This engine will last, and if you follow along, before jumping to conclusions, you'll see the results for yourself. Now, Harry, will you finally fuck off forever? Why do you bother coming back here? You contribute nothing, and yet seem to show up over and over again saying the same stupid things. Learn to shut your trap, go back to the ZZR guys (who realize you're an idiot, too), and don't come back. BTW, how the hell would you know what my mph would be with the mods I've given, unless you already know my power output? You don't even know what is planned here, moron. :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbirdxx2000 Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Thanks for the Intelligent response :grin: Just asked a question, but I forgot who I was talking to :roll: PS: notice I never called you a name or Insulted you :wink: and I am the one thats a moron :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 what the hell do I know That's the only question I could find in your post, Harry, and we all know the answer- not much. Why do you feel such a strong need to come here and stir the shit every couple weeks? Do you enjoy the abuse? You've alienated (look it up, genius) this entire board at one point or another, and then wonder why we don't gather 'round for a group hug every time you show up slinging more shit. Take your know it all bullshit outdated opinions back the the ZZR board, they seem to tolerate you, in a retarded little brother kinda way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbirdxx2000 Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Once again thanks for the entertainment you guys are loosing more menbers than you realize :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 you guys are loosing more menbers than you realize One would be enough. PS- it's losing, and I think you meant members- moron. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbirdxx2000 Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 you guys are loosing more menbers than you realize One would be enough. PS- it's losing, and I think you meant members- moron. I only wish someday I can be as Intelligent and good speller just like you redbird , whats your secret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 whats your secret I dunno, passing fourth grade maybe? I'm not going to bother continuing to correct all your spelling and grammatical mistakes, just rest assured you're making them, and looking like an ass in the process. Why don't you just go away, instead of hanging out here getting abused? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bbirdxx2000 Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Who said anything about be abused , I am playing you like a fine tuned piano , now who's the moron :twisted: PS: I am done with you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 PS: I am done with you Now where have we heard that before................ :roll: Promises, promises. :sad: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 I am playing you like a fine tuned piano Shit, you kill me, man. What color is the sky in your world? You couldn't manipulate a six week old puppy with a shock collar, an instruction manual and ten pounds of hamburger, but I'm sure you really believe you've got the best of me. Get over yourself and get on with your life. Go away like you keep promising to. Consider it a favor to me, I can no longer take the mind games you keep playing on me, pretending to be a complete idiot whilst playing me like a fine tuned piano the entire time. The inability to spell or punctuate was a fine touch. Nicely played, sir, I bow to your superior intellect :wink: Now will you go away? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Motobeagle Posted December 15, 2003 Share Posted December 15, 2003 Shit, you kill me, man. You couldn't manipulate a six week old puppy with a shock collar, an instruction manual and ten pounds of hamburger, but I'm sure you really believe you've got the best of me. I have no idea where (or what) you pulled that out of, but I'm applauding you. Generously. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Thank you, Tim. :worship: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G2 Posted December 16, 2003 Share Posted December 16, 2003 Both the Pub, and now the Garage, have been a genuinely fine read as of late. :razz: Keep up the good work! :wink: G2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOXXIC Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Shit, you kill me, man. You couldn't manipulate a six week old puppy with a shock collar, an instruction manual and ten pounds of hamburger, but I'm sure you really believe you've got the best of me. That really had me laughing my ass off. So much so I shared it with all my coworkers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Something about Harry brings out the best (worst?) in me. At a certain point I almost feel guilty, it really is too easy to abuse him- then he starts typing again and I can't help myself. Looks like this episide is over, regardless. Stay tuned for the next installment :razz: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VeloXXiraptor Posted December 17, 2003 Share Posted December 17, 2003 Tim, your creativity and eloquence during this entertaining repartee are most appreciated!! :cheers: Especially that bit about training the puppy... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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