XX4me Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 For all you power hungry NA guys. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...item=2445170968 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 I placed a bid! :grin: And I intend on winning it, unless the price gets out of range! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spEEdfrEEk Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 I placed a bid! :grin: And I intend on winning it, unless the price gets out of range! Cool, I hope you win it! That way you can put it in and try it out and give us a review :grin: :cool: TJ :cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey Posted November 28, 2003 Share Posted November 28, 2003 You might want to get someone mechanically inclined to install that for you :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XX4me Posted November 29, 2003 Author Share Posted November 29, 2003 I payed a little over $600.00 for the JE 9:1 compression 1/2 millimeter over bore pistons in my bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mickcbr1100 Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 You got a bargain Chris, might have a busa killer come Spring. :cool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 We'll see................ :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CALCXX Posted December 3, 2003 Share Posted December 3, 2003 Chris, I'm sure glad you got it!! I've been watching it, hoping you would win the bid. When ya gonna install it? Cal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Over the winter. I already contacted a reputable engine builder in the area, and will be doing baseline dyno runs within the next few weeks, prior to teardown. I'll start a thread in the Garage when it's time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CALCXX Posted December 4, 2003 Share Posted December 4, 2003 Looking forward to it! Later, Cal Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XX4me Posted December 6, 2003 Author Share Posted December 6, 2003 I'm looking forward to it as well. Before and after dyno runs will be interesting. Are you planning on having the head ported, adding different cams or any other mods while you have her apart? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted December 6, 2003 Share Posted December 6, 2003 Are you planning on having the head ported, adding different cams or any other mods while you have her apart? I'll have the bike on the dyno within the next couple of weeks, and figure out what we need to do to make the gains we're looking for. Before/after dyno runs will definitely be posted, and I'm calling this a "project", so we're excercising all options on power gains. If you've got any ideas, let me know. :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XX4me Posted December 8, 2003 Author Share Posted December 8, 2003 COOL! It all really depends on how much you want to spend. From what I gathered on the "other" site you won't need rods or clutch basket if you are under 200 HP. But, if you have it apart anyway..... If you are getting the head ported and polished I have heard good things about carpenterracing.com. Carillo rods (mostly insurance) = $1000.00 Falicon super crank (lightened balanced and polished) = $700.00 Falicon Billet clutch basket (insurance) = $395.00 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggenpwr Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Congrads on winning the ebay auction. I looked at it but didn't want to do that much work. According to J&E Pistons site (they have you download a pdf) the kit you bought requires "boring and plating." However, the ebay auction seller's comments said that the kit only required "honing." :oops: If you are upset about that you could legally decline purchasing the kit, as the seller's mis-statement would constitute a material misrepresentation of a substantial fact that you could of reasonably relied on to your detriment -- which is legal babble for saying you thought you were buying something simpler and less expense to install than was advertized. :shock: Okay, good luck and I hope the kit works out for you. :grin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XX4me Posted December 9, 2003 Author Share Posted December 9, 2003 The Blackbird has steel sleeves. No plating required, but it will have to be bored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikey Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 What's the difference between boring and honing? And when would plating be required and why? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demon Posted December 9, 2003 Share Posted December 9, 2003 Boring: removing lots of material in the cylinder wall- like 2mm for increased displacement. Honing: scuffing the surface of the cylinder wall for ring break-in, very little material is removed. Plating the cylinder walls with nicasil (sp.?) is for aluminum linerless cylinders. If the cylinders weren't lined with the hard plating, they would wear out VERY fast. Steel liners do not require plating because the steel is hard enough to resist wear. Some bikes have aluminum cylinders to reduce weight like the current batch of supersport 600's and the light liter bikes. Class dismissed, go ride. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggenpwr Posted December 10, 2003 Share Posted December 10, 2003 It makes sense that you should not have to plate. However, the J&E Piston website does specify "plating." You might want to email them and ask if the plating is an error; or what they had in mind, since the XX has steel sleeves. It's best to find out from the source. You don't have to guess just email them. I hope you don't have to plate 'cause that would make it easier for anyone considering this upgrade. However, even steel sleeves that are thin or worn could benefit from plating; it's all just what works according to how J&E Pistons designed the kit and how thick and durable are the XX cylinder walls to begin with. Also, the compression will go up from stock of 1:11 to 1:11.5 -- so you might want to be sure the engine is tight, anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XX4me Posted December 10, 2003 Author Share Posted December 10, 2003 It's a typo you don't need plating on steel sleeves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 The bores are cast iron. You either need soft rings, or a soft bore, or major problems can occur. Most bores are cast iron, with either a moly or chrome surface on the rings. Nikasil treated bores will use a softer ring (ductile iron), which is uncoated. Reason one has to be softer than the other is so they will wear in together. If you had soft rings + soft bore = rapid wear & compression loss. Hard rings + hard bore = lots of heat, rings that won't break in, and possibility of rings welding themselves to the bores from friction. Piston material doesn't dictate bore surface or material, ring material does, and visa versa. I haven't seen aluminum bores used for anything but lawn mowers, and even those are the really cheap, disposable ones. All the good ones are cast iron lined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggenpwr Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 According to Dave, my mechanic, In Daly City -- the Blackbirds that he's worked on have aluminum engines with nickel-silver plating. It should be easy enough to check the technical specs on this; it may be that earlier models were steel sleeves. But if this is true, Dave says -- bore and replating will run you $1,000. Add to this $600 for the kit and 8 hours of mechanic time. You're then talking about a $2,000 upgrade. On the other hand, J&E Pistons may have sold an earlier kit that has been superceded by the current kit that requires plating. If so, then the earlier kit may just have rings which are slightly larger than stock thus allowing a larger piston put not requiring boring. Anyway, I hate to speculate, the best thing is to just find out. If I can find the specific engine design spec, I'll post it for you. But it may take some digging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggenpwr Posted December 11, 2003 Share Posted December 11, 2003 Here is all I could find on what the cylinder walls of the XX are made of. I could not find any definitive answer -- I did a wide search on Yahoo.com and looked at dozens of spec sheets and mod sites. Here's the few details I could find out about the engine itself and its design. But the weight of the evidence suggests the XX engine was designed after the F4 and 900RR and therefore would be aluminum with hard plating. Any one know different??? Here are the specs I did find (bold highlight for emphasis): ***************************************** The CBR1100XX's all-new, lightweight 1,137cc engine features the same crankcase and cylinder block style used in both the CBR600 and CBR900. Lightweight 1137cc liquid-cooled four-cylinder engine with one-piece upper crankcase and cylinder block. Engine clock and upper crankcase based on the Fireblade engine, but with a slightly reduced included valve angle of 30 degrees as against 32 for the CBR900RR. The engine is angled forward to push the centre of gravity downwards which improves the balance of the bike. To reduce overall bulk, the cylinder block was designed with the minimum of excess material, to keep it as light as possible. Even the valve angles were steepened to keep the combustion chamber utterly compact !!! In the interest of narrowness, the twin camshafts are driven from one end of the crank, and the other driving an ultra-compact generator. Open-deck casting technology is used in the cylinder area to maintain an ultra-narrow cylinder sleeve spacing and bore pitch. Much of the new engine's design work concentrated on minimizing friction and inertial mass. Compact size and light weight were major requirements, and in spite of displacing nearly 140cc more than the CBR1000F and featuring an all-new dual-shaft balancer configuration, the new engine weighs fully 22 lbs less than the 998cc powerplant. Its small size permits it to be positioned in the ideal location in the frame for optimal mass centralization, contributing to the XX's ultra-light handling. ***************************************** Hmn, looks like cast iron would not be the material used for the cylinder sleeves, but I could be wrong. Even if steel or iron is used look at the 5th entry: "... ultra narrow cylinder sleeve spacing and bore pitch..." That does not sound good for boring out the sleeve. Pitch of the bore, I believe, means the thickness of the cylinder sleeve, which is here indicated to be ULTRA NARROW. So, be careful if you bore this engine no matter what it's made of or how it's plated or not plated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XX4me Posted December 11, 2003 Author Share Posted December 11, 2003 Ok look here is the definitive answer. They are not plated. I had my 2003 bored out when the piston melted. It's not plated. I had this same discussion with the guy from Gatlin racing. He swore up and down that they were plated. NOT! I had the head mechanic at the local shop call the Honda tech line and they said cast in/ non-removable sleeve not plated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 cylinder sleeve That's the key phrase here. If they were plated, then they would refer to them as "cylinder bores". Sleeve implies that they are separate from the original casting, and installed later. I have never seen an engine designed for any kind of production automotive purpose use aluminum cylinder walls, and I'll stand on that, until someone can prove me wrong. BTW, your mechanic, Dave, smokes crack. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muggenpwr Posted December 12, 2003 Share Posted December 12, 2003 Hey, I think we are both right on this matter, but we are just coming at it from different directions. Haynes repair manual lists the crank cases and engine block as being made of ALLOY ALUMINUM!!! :shock: Haynes also lists bore sleeves which are non-removable. Haynes also goes into great detail and instruction on how to hone and/or bore the cylinder sleeves. There is no mention of plating, or the need to replate. So Haynes is on your side in this regard. But HONING is supposed to remove no measurable amount of material; and BORING because of wharping or out-of-round conditions should be no more than 0.5 mm. Given these facts several issues arise. First, of course you are right when you say that no automotive engine relies on aluminum cylinders. But different types of platings and sleeves inside the aluminum block is what I believe all the fuss or confusion is about. GSXRs and Ninjas use a variety of high tech platings on sleeve, and these sleeves go inside aluminum blocks. The sleeve materials are plated with electrostatic this and that including ceramics!!! What Dave was talking about (I checked with him today) was an aluminum block with nick-a-silv(?) coating over the sleeves. (I'm not certain how to spell nick-a-silv, but it is made of nickel, silver and other metals). And if that is not the case, it appears that other mechanics have made the same false assumption that the XX was plated. So I will take the blame for assuming that the raw alloy is sometimes plated. That was my misunderstanding or false assumption. On my side though is this: the Haynes manual does not state what the sleeves are made of. It is glaring that Haynes leaves this out. Haynes only calls the sleeves "material" that is honed and bored. This omission in itself sounds suspect, as if Honda uses a propiertary material in its sleeve. Further, the sleeves could be made from a hardened form of Al alloy -- such as forged and anodized which is 80% stronger than billet. But lets assume that the sleeves are steel. Iron cast sleeves would seem to produce too much friction. Remember that cast iron rotors are used on race bikes just because the iron produces so much friction. In any event, there is still cause for concern no matter what the sleeve material is or whether it is plated or not. Why? The Haynes manual (1997 to 2002) in chapter 2, page 48 states that if the bore is out of service limits for wear, taper or out-of-round they can be over bored to +0.50 mm. The service limits are 0.10 mm. However, the J&E Piston kit requires a 2.0 mm over bore; and at the section of the cylinder wall that joins any two cylinders -- you will have a 4.0 mm reduction in sleeve matter. This weakening throws up a red flag and raises cause for concern. At least it should be an issue that needs checked out -- for anyone engaging in the boring of an "ultra narrow" and light weight engine design. Think of any two side by side cylinders as a figure eight (8). The place where the two circles join is the place that is reduced by 4.0 mm. Further, the firing sequence is 1,2,3,4 left to right. This is important here because it means that for adjoining cylinders there is a shearing force going on. That is, when one piston is going down the other is going up. The analogy is like sharpening knives the old fashioned way where you slide one edge against the other. Lots of shearing force, sharpening force occurs. The design of the cylinder walls are also what can be called semi-floating. That is, the walls are mostly surrounded by coolant and without the buttress effect of fins or supporting sections (for the most part). This means that a weakening of adjoining walls can be the site of future material failures. This is especially suspect when the kit increases compression and rpms which further stresses the adjoining walls and increases the shearing forces of the side by side pistons moving in opposition to each other against the weakened wall. Give the above, and the ultra compact design specs of the engine... It would seem only prudent to run this boring kit by Honda's technical phone advisors at least. And perhaps to inquire whether J&E Piston disclaims any warranty. My guess is that Honda will tell you (CYA) that the big bore kit voids its warranty. I further bet that the J&E Piston Company's literature for the kit states that the kit is for competition use only and the buyer uses it at his/her own risk, or something to that effect. Now I could be wrong, but there's enough signs here to keep your eyes open and do some homework before launching into this project. So just how much over-engineering has Honda done on the XX engine to make it "big-bore-able???" With the engine's design specs to be ultra light weight, compact, narrow and to cut out all excessive weight and material... And with the adjoining cylinder walls being weakened by 8Xs the amount of a remedial over-bore... (0.5 mm compared to 4.0 mm) well, I'm just saying here to look before you leap, if you know what I mean? :roll: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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