muggenpwr

You know there's nothing wrong with modding your heart out and taking the risk yourself. However, you guys just don't get it when it comes to safety and the whole world potentially reading these things. So here goes! Dear Rockmeup, Man, that peg lowering stuff was just way too dangerous. You got some balls to post that. For if 400 read it and 40 try it then 4 -- will crash their bikes on it, and one most probably has suffered very serious injuries. You know why? All sorts of out of whack things happen with those NON-ENGINEERED PEGS: boots catch, kickstands get caught, brake pedal gets toe slipped and foot caught under brake pedal -- because pedal now too far away... Man, it's a hazard for the unwarry, amateur do-it-yourselfer. And for the guy who's in the hospital, well... You'd never get it reported back to you because, he's now eating his breakfast through a straw and doesn't know his own name. Don't you get it, buddy, that you are messing with a F**king system????? When you change one part of an integrated whole the rest goes out of balance and the potential for disaster is just as sure as Murphy's law, to wit, if something CAN go wrong it WILL go wrong. And so too is the danger of the head work contemplated by this thread because you are ignoring the rest of the engine system. You just can't go around working on one piece and unbalancing the rest -- without risking disaster. That's why the professional engine upgraders at the above site went to great lengths to re-balance the engine. They upgraded the clutch springs and the valve springs and strengthened the cylinder sleeves just to name a few. Lastly, the XX's engine was state of the art in 1997, being the first to be virtually vibe free using a twin counterbalancer and centralizing mass by eliminating all extraneous weight that was safe to eliminate. Now some hacker comes along and says stick in a few stronger parts to get more power but ignore the total design of the whole balanced system. At the very least -- you will be reducing the useful life of the a 100,000 mile engine to 20,000 miles and at the worst you will cause an internal failure which depending on when it happens could cost you and others who follow you -- BIG TIME. Now, I hadn't planned on getting preachy here. I had planned to only add one comment to this thread, but you guys just didn't see what absolute fools you are as viewed by the engineering world, and that blindness is potenially ultra-hazardous to be sure. So, I felt and still feel compelled to give you this warning here. Which in summary is this: when dealing with super technical complex systems stick to tried and true mods or just comfort/cosmetic ones, especially when that system (here read engine) if toyed with wrongly can bury you. I know I sound like your father, but someone has to browbeat some sense into your reckless heads! :sad:

At this website -- you will find a list of what it really takes to re-bore an XX and get a real job done. Notice the RE-SLEEVING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! So, man, how is my 2 cents being way past my expertise when I'm just asking the right questions. Here's proof -- you imba-silly person. Okay, go ahead and do your own rebore with a $400 kit, and blow your bike up!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Just remember this: I WON THIS BATTLE AND HERE'S PROOF!!!! A list of the real beans... Okay, go ahead and cry now, booh, hooh! :cry: :cry: :cry: ________________________________________________ http://www.bigccracing.com/welcome.asp?page=46 Kent Race Cams Ported and Gas Flowed Cylinder Head Slotted Sprockets Heavy Duty Valve Springs 1200cc Pistons Rebore Titanium Retainers 1mm Oversized Valves 3 Angle Valve Seats 998 Wiseco Pistons Re-sleeved Upper Case Rebore Genuine Honda Parts and Fluids Labour Total ride in / ride out cost £2,750+VAT Stage 4 Motor Tune: Kent Race Cams Ported and Gas Flowed Cylinder Head Slotted Sprockets Heavy Duty Valve Springs Titanium Retainers 1200cc Pistons Rebore 1mm Oversized Valves 3 Angle Valve Seats Re-sleeved Upper Case Falicon Con Rods Falicon Billet Crank Genuine Honda Parts and Fluids Labour Total ride in / ride out cost £4,995+VAT

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But check out this site for big bore kits and notice that the better kits have new high tech bore barrels included to avoid reducing engine strength. http://www.tts-performance.com/bigborepage...46a701cc2c06103 Think about that and that the J&E Piston kit lacks these bore barrels, and ask yourself, are you sure that the V&M and other 1200 models used the J&E Piston kits, or did they use kits with new bore barrels or did they plate the sleeves for added strength and/or to reduce friction??? Can you answer these questions for certain? If not, you don't have to guess. Instead, try contacting the 1200 model builders if you haven't done so. Thereby you will be getting a hedge on what problems might crop up and how to avoid them ahead of time. You might also find that 1137cc was the most Honda engineers thought they could bore out the basic engine block they were starting with, or not. All I'm saying is that we don't know for sure, at least from what I was able to dig up, whether there are problems to watch out for. One clue though suggests that there will be -- it is that the over bore kit itself only takes the engine up by 60 cc, which is only 15 cc per cylinder. The caution used to minimize the over bore to only 15 cc (by 2 mm widening of the piston, no stroke was added) is, ahem, worrisome. It is some indication that the designers were dealing with a minimum allowance of over engineering. I could be way off base; but what if V&M used stronger bore barrel inserts, or some other accommodation to avoid weakening the cylinder walls? And why not just find out one way or the other first. It could save you a lot of head aches in the long run. :wink:

Hey, I think we are both right on this matter, but we are just coming at it from different directions. Haynes repair manual lists the crank cases and engine block as being made of ALLOY ALUMINUM!!! :shock: Haynes also lists bore sleeves which are non-removable. Haynes also goes into great detail and instruction on how to hone and/or bore the cylinder sleeves. There is no mention of plating, or the need to replate. So Haynes is on your side in this regard. But HONING is supposed to remove no measurable amount of material; and BORING because of wharping or out-of-round conditions should be no more than 0.5 mm. Given these facts several issues arise. First, of course you are right when you say that no automotive engine relies on aluminum cylinders. But different types of platings and sleeves inside the aluminum block is what I believe all the fuss or confusion is about. GSXRs and Ninjas use a variety of high tech platings on sleeve, and these sleeves go inside aluminum blocks. The sleeve materials are plated with electrostatic this and that including ceramics!!! What Dave was talking about (I checked with him today) was an aluminum block with nick-a-silv(?) coating over the sleeves. (I'm not certain how to spell nick-a-silv, but it is made of nickel, silver and other metals). And if that is not the case, it appears that other mechanics have made the same false assumption that the XX was plated. So I will take the blame for assuming that the raw alloy is sometimes plated. That was my misunderstanding or false assumption. On my side though is this: the Haynes manual does not state what the sleeves are made of. It is glaring that Haynes leaves this out. Haynes only calls the sleeves "material" that is honed and bored. This omission in itself sounds suspect, as if Honda uses a propiertary material in its sleeve. Further, the sleeves could be made from a hardened form of Al alloy -- such as forged and anodized which is 80% stronger than billet. But lets assume that the sleeves are steel. Iron cast sleeves would seem to produce too much friction. Remember that cast iron rotors are used on race bikes just because the iron produces so much friction. In any event, there is still cause for concern no matter what the sleeve material is or whether it is plated or not. Why? The Haynes manual (1997 to 2002) in chapter 2, page 48 states that if the bore is out of service limits for wear, taper or out-of-round they can be over bored to +0.50 mm. The service limits are 0.10 mm. However, the J&E Piston kit requires a 2.0 mm over bore; and at the section of the cylinder wall that joins any two cylinders -- you will have a 4.0 mm reduction in sleeve matter. This weakening throws up a red flag and raises cause for concern. At least it should be an issue that needs checked out -- for anyone engaging in the boring of an "ultra narrow" and light weight engine design. Think of any two side by side cylinders as a figure eight (8). The place where the two circles join is the place that is reduced by 4.0 mm. Further, the firing sequence is 1,2,3,4 left to right. This is important here because it means that for adjoining cylinders there is a shearing force going on. That is, when one piston is going down the other is going up. The analogy is like sharpening knives the old fashioned way where you slide one edge against the other. Lots of shearing force, sharpening force occurs. The design of the cylinder walls are also what can be called semi-floating. That is, the walls are mostly surrounded by coolant and without the buttress effect of fins or supporting sections (for the most part). This means that a weakening of adjoining walls can be the site of future material failures. This is especially suspect when the kit increases compression and rpms which further stresses the adjoining walls and increases the shearing forces of the side by side pistons moving in opposition to each other against the weakened wall. Give the above, and the ultra compact design specs of the engine... It would seem only prudent to run this boring kit by Honda's technical phone advisors at least. And perhaps to inquire whether J&E Piston disclaims any warranty. My guess is that Honda will tell you (CYA) that the big bore kit voids its warranty. I further bet that the J&E Piston Company's literature for the kit states that the kit is for competition use only and the buyer uses it at his/her own risk, or something to that effect. Now I could be wrong, but there's enough signs here to keep your eyes open and do some homework before launching into this project. So just how much over-engineering has Honda done on the XX engine to make it "big-bore-able???" With the engine's design specs to be ultra light weight, compact, narrow and to cut out all excessive weight and material... And with the adjoining cylinder walls being weakened by 8Xs the amount of a remedial over-bore... (0.5 mm compared to 4.0 mm) well, I'm just saying here to look before you leap, if you know what I mean? :roll:

Here is all I could find on what the cylinder walls of the XX are made of. I could not find any definitive answer -- I did a wide search on Yahoo.com and looked at dozens of spec sheets and mod sites. Here's the few details I could find out about the engine itself and its design. But the weight of the evidence suggests the XX engine was designed after the F4 and 900RR and therefore would be aluminum with hard plating. Any one know different??? Here are the specs I did find (bold highlight for emphasis): ***************************************** The CBR1100XX's all-new, lightweight 1,137cc engine features the same crankcase and cylinder block style used in both the CBR600 and CBR900. Lightweight 1137cc liquid-cooled four-cylinder engine with one-piece upper crankcase and cylinder block. Engine clock and upper crankcase based on the Fireblade engine, but with a slightly reduced included valve angle of 30 degrees as against 32 for the CBR900RR. The engine is angled forward to push the centre of gravity downwards which improves the balance of the bike. To reduce overall bulk, the cylinder block was designed with the minimum of excess material, to keep it as light as possible. Even the valve angles were steepened to keep the combustion chamber utterly compact !!! In the interest of narrowness, the twin camshafts are driven from one end of the crank, and the other driving an ultra-compact generator. Open-deck casting technology is used in the cylinder area to maintain an ultra-narrow cylinder sleeve spacing and bore pitch. Much of the new engine's design work concentrated on minimizing friction and inertial mass. Compact size and light weight were major requirements, and in spite of displacing nearly 140cc more than the CBR1000F and featuring an all-new dual-shaft balancer configuration, the new engine weighs fully 22 lbs less than the 998cc powerplant. Its small size permits it to be positioned in the ideal location in the frame for optimal mass centralization, contributing to the XX's ultra-light handling. ***************************************** Hmn, looks like cast iron would not be the material used for the cylinder sleeves, but I could be wrong. Even if steel or iron is used look at the 5th entry: "... ultra narrow cylinder sleeve spacing and bore pitch..." That does not sound good for boring out the sleeve. Pitch of the bore, I believe, means the thickness of the cylinder sleeve, which is here indicated to be ULTRA NARROW. So, be careful if you bore this engine no matter what it's made of or how it's plated or not plated.

According to Dave, my mechanic, In Daly City -- the Blackbirds that he's worked on have aluminum engines with nickel-silver plating. It should be easy enough to check the technical specs on this; it may be that earlier models were steel sleeves. But if this is true, Dave says -- bore and replating will run you $1,000. Add to this $600 for the kit and 8 hours of mechanic time. You're then talking about a $2,000 upgrade. On the other hand, J&E Pistons may have sold an earlier kit that has been superceded by the current kit that requires plating. If so, then the earlier kit may just have rings which are slightly larger than stock thus allowing a larger piston put not requiring boring. Anyway, I hate to speculate, the best thing is to just find out. If I can find the specific engine design spec, I'll post it for you. But it may take some digging.

It makes sense that you should not have to plate. However, the J&E Piston website does specify "plating." You might want to email them and ask if the plating is an error; or what they had in mind, since the XX has steel sleeves. It's best to find out from the source. You don't have to guess just email them. I hope you don't have to plate 'cause that would make it easier for anyone considering this upgrade. However, even steel sleeves that are thin or worn could benefit from plating; it's all just what works according to how J&E Pistons designed the kit and how thick and durable are the XX cylinder walls to begin with. Also, the compression will go up from stock of 1:11 to 1:11.5 -- so you might want to be sure the engine is tight, anyway.

Congrads on winning the ebay auction. I looked at it but didn't want to do that much work. According to J&E Pistons site (they have you download a pdf) the kit you bought requires "boring and plating." However, the ebay auction seller's comments said that the kit only required "honing." :oops: If you are upset about that you could legally decline purchasing the kit, as the seller's mis-statement would constitute a material misrepresentation of a substantial fact that you could of reasonably relied on to your detriment -- which is legal babble for saying you thought you were buying something simpler and less expense to install than was advertized. :shock: Okay, good luck and I hope the kit works out for you. :grin:

Have a '99 XX, and pothole crunched the front wheel with crack. Have been offered a 1997 front wheel (freebee) but the part numbers are different and I heard the axle size changed in 1999. Is there a way I can still use the '97 front wheel? Can I just go get a '97 axle and use it with the '97 wheel on the '99 bike? Would the '97 axle fit the '99 forks? If not would a sleeve of somekind allow it to work? Is there anyway around the differences, like modifying something?