New Carrozzeria Wheels, mass produced forged bargains???

[ralfybebedosekys]

Any info members have about the new Carrozzeria forged aluminum wheels would be greatly appreciated.

They look like a genuine bargain but there are a lot of unknowns about them because they are so new.

The best thing is this: www.engineeredracingproducts.com -- will configure the wheels for the Honda CBR1100XX so you can mount them with stock parts right out of the box.

Here are the benefits but are these genuine. These assumptions need to be verified that is why I am posting them here.

1. both front and rear wheels (cushdrive provided) only $1380, could be cheaper with a group buy discount.

2. wheels are shipped ready for mounting with stock rotors, axel, barings and everything except a rear sprocket (which you can buy from them at a discounted $29);

3. The forged wheels come anodized in black or gold, have six spokes and are stronger and 20% to 40% lighter than stockers;

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Okay, some research needs to be done on this. Namely, are these Carrozzeria rims the long awaited mass produced Japanese wheels that are 30% to 40% cheaper than DynMag, RC, PM, O.Z. and the alike???

If the research pans out this would make a fabulous group buy proposal. I believe a large group buy could get 15% to 20% off, by large I mean 20 to 30 orders. If this is the long awaited bargain wheel that might be possible.

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What jumps out at me about the wheel besides the price is the lack of hidden costs. This is the first of the forged aluminum wheels that has a direct application to the CBR1100XX, which means plainly that you need to buy nothing else except a new sprocket, all the stock fittings will work with it. NO Hidden Costs!!! Can this be true?

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What also needs to be researched -- how real is the weight savings???

For example, I heard that the Honda stock rear wheel only weighs 16 to 18 lbs to begin with depending on what exactly you are weighing, namely wheel and cushdrive, barings, etc. Is this true? Does anyone have exact figures for stock wheel weights that actually specify what exact parts are included???

Well, RC Racing states that their wheels weigh about 15lbs., if so, then that brand would not be much of an improvement over stock, no?

Consider this: with a 25% lighter rear (say 12lbs or 4 lbs less), a wave rotor (1.5 lbs. less) an AFAM hard anodized sprocket (2 lbs less) and a high end sport tire (2 lbs less) [stock Bridgestone 020 weights 17 lbs. while a Pirelli Diablo weighs 15lbs.] Well, you can reduce the total weight of the rear rotational mass by 9.5 lbs. Now, if the stock weight is about 40 lbs the new weight would be 30.5 pounds or a reduction of almost 25%. Hmm.........

Man, that's a lot of reduced weight, and hence increased power because it's rotating. Hmm, the engine now has to rotate 25% less mass, that is worth repeating!!!

Okay, if any members would like to work on researching this new mass produced bargain forged wheel -- that would be greatly appreciated.

Further, the site listed above also sells Galfer wave rotors at discounted prices.

For any Bird pilot who is approaching 40,000 miles on the clock or 30,000 hard ridden miles -- you might have to change out your rotors anyway and then time this with a new tire purchase and then go ahead and get the forged wheels... boom... all of a sudden your bike is producing 25% more power off the line... ("let's go cruising for 'Busa bait"). Eeee...

But is this real??? Can someone figure this out.

[Redbird]

forged wheels... boom... all of a sudden you're bike is producing 25% more thrust off the line

Sounds promising, but that's a bit of a stretch, dontcha think?

[ralfybebedosekys]

Well, right, not actually 25% more thrust. To be exact thrust is equal to torque at the crank times the ratios of the primary drive, gear and final drive. :-o

For example, if the engine produces 80 lbs/ft of torque at 7,000 rpms you multiply that times primary, gear and final. Okay, lets use the numbers from the owner's manual to figure this out: :shock:

(1.57 or primary drive ratio) X (first gear ratio of 2.77) X (final drive sprocket ratio of 45/17 which is 2.65)

80lbs/ft (@7,000 rpms) X 1.57 X 2.77 X 2.65 = 922 lbs of thrust in first gear. :grin:

Now the 922 lbs of thrust has to move the weight the rotating mass of the rear wheel first to overcome inertia, and then the thrust acts on the total weight of the rider-vehicle combination. So the thrust is reduced by the weight of the wheel, it's that simple. :wink:

There is a formula to calculate acceleration by relating thrust, total mass and rotating mass and the coefficient of grip. But again I can't remember the formula, perhaps someone knows it.

I do know that the coefficient of grip for rubber on asphalt (bike on street) is around 0.8 where 1.0 equals total grip, and 0.05 is metal on ice (a bit slippery, eh?).

So to be precise in calculating the effect on acceleration of a 25% drop in rear wheel mass, we would have to know the exact equation, which I don't, as I said AND I'M CALLING FOR HELP HERE. :sad:

Anyway, here's an approximation of what such an equation would have to contain, that is, the equation would look something like this:

740 lbs (wet XX plus a fully suited up rider) factored by

922 lbs of thrust at 80% grip efficiency DEPLETED by having to turn a 40 lb. rear wheel/tire assembly VERSUS HAVING TO TURN A 30 POUND REAR WHEEL/TIRE. GET IT??? :razz:

Now just looking at the numbers without knowing the formula but knowing by experience the effect of 7,000 rpms in first gear -- you can get a feeling for the result. It's a very big wheelie, hehe???

The more you can increase the grip coefficient, like for example using fully heated race tires :shock: , AND the less DEPLETION you have to the thrust by reducing the rotating mass of the rear tire assembly -- the MORE thrust that will actually be tranferred to MOVE the 740 lbs rider/vehicle.

So, you are right that lowering the rotating mass by 25% does not increase thrust by that amount. But it does decrease the raw depletion of thrust caused by rotating mass. :sad:

How significant must the reduction be to be significant??? What are the real world numbers??? That is what I'd like to find out.

And would those numbers justify spending the money on the wheels, rotors, tires... :???:

Well, one argument says that if stickyer tires drop many seconds off of lap times, well then, lowering the rear wheel mass must also have a substantial effect. :shock:

It would be nice if an expert would come forward and spell out and sort out the real from the unreal. Where should we spend our money on mods? Is a forged aluminum wheel justified for it's performance gains? And if you include a wave rotor, lighter sprocket and tires would the total weight reduction be enough to justify the cost? Or is rotating mass just a myth? :?:

Anyway, side hooligan comments don't help. They just confuse the matter. If all the weight reduction mods are a rip off then lets find out instead of making cryptic and bad jokes like you are some kind of Dennis Miller wannabe!!! Harsh, Harsh... :twisted: :evil: :roll: :wink:

[kg4fku]

damn 740 lbs :shock: fat ass :twisted:

[Motobeagle]

Ah there you go throwing math into the equation.

What are your credentials?

For example, if the engine produces 80 lbs/ft of torque at 7,000 rpms you multiply that times primary, gear and final. Okay, lets use the numbers from the owner's manual to figure this out:

(1.57 or primary drive ratio) X (first gear ratio of 2.77) X (final drive sprocket ratio of 45/17 which is 2.65)

80lbs/ft (@7,000 rpms) X 1.57 X 2.77 X 2.65 = 922 lbs of thrust in first gear.

[MiDNiTXX]

I wish you had told me boaut this before I sent my rims to be chromed...can't rebudget now!

[Northman]

Hmm, I've yet to analyze all of your data, and theoretical performance increases, but most important factor here is:

Are they pretty? :grin: (got any pics?)

[BDAZ XX]

[BDAZ XX]

Dup....... :oops:

[BDAZ XX]

The link is in his first post if you READ it..............

http://www.engineeredracingproducts.com/hipoint/stage1.htm

I read it, I just wanted to try out my new little "I need pics" happyfaces.

BTW Nice wheels!

[Redbird]

here ya go-

Dammit, Randy- I hate it when that happens. I'll post a couple more so I don't look like a complete ass.....

[mickcbr1100]

Why all the calculations? the wheels are only reducing unsprung weight which does improve handling but the only effect on performance is the actual reduction in the overall weight of the bike ie "7lbs = 1hp" or am I totally wrong again :oops:

[jrdxx]

I can see the reduction in rotating mass improving handling, acceleration and braking (though not top speed); I just don't believe the improvement would be worth the price. But if you have to be the only Blackbird on the block with Carrozzeria wheels....

[Redbird]

Being lighter will reduce rotating mass, which in turn will reduce turn in effort due to the lessened gyroscopic effect. Reducing unsprung weight will also improve suspension action, so there are definite benefits.

I believe it would also be of some benefit in straightline acceleration, it just may have been overstated a bit here. Maybe Dean can help with that, he a much smarter and better informed man than myself.

Seems to me the energy required to move the wheel, by itself, will be reduced by 25%, fair enough, but to call that an overall increase in thrust of 25% seems to be oversimplifying thing a bit to me. You'd need to factor in everything that's resisting the forward rotation of the wheel, not just the weight of the wheel, and no, I don't know the formula for that.

Anyway, side hooligan comments don't help. They just confuse the matter. If all the weight reduction mods are a rip off then lets find out instead of making cryptic and bad jokes like you are some kind of Dennis Miller wannabe!!! Harsh, Harsh...

Stick around for awhile, it gets worse. But we do get to the answers, sooner or later. Or if we're not quick enough for you, you could always ask somewhere else :wink:

[BDAZ XX]

I run aftermarket wheels on my XX and it does not make a difference in straightline acceleration (per my Butt dyno), so to speak, but does make a tremendous difference in transitioning left to right.

And DUDE RALFY LAYOFF THE CAFFINE! With stats and calcs like that your hurting my head! Your not racing the XX are you?? :mrgreen:

[ralfybebedosekys]

Thanks for all the replies so far.

Why all the calculations? Because it's the only real way we can get to a price performance evaluation.

A REAL PRICE-PERFORMANCE EVALUATION.

By the way, I found the thrust equation in BIKE Magazine, where the dyno was actually charting thrust in each gear. The graph showed overlays for each gear. The mod they were testing was different end cans. I will look for the article and post the exact situation soon, and some verification of it.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY: when you are spending thousands on wheel/rotor/tire/sprocket mods -- it seems reasonable to find out exactly what is bull and what is going to help.

For example, I've seen many articles which show that the most cost effective performance mod is to simply change the sprockets.

Example, a mere $100 can get you a 16 tooth front and a 46 tooth hard anodized rear -- which will give you a real 8% acceleration increase, at the expense of 8% off the top speed. Which means you'll only be able to go 162 mph instead of 175 mph, which seems a reasonable trade off in the real world. Why 16/46? You don't have to mess with the chain.

Also, in Northern California at Sears Point Raceway, there is a weekday night race called "Kids vs The Cops" where you pay only $14 to drag the quarter against other bikes.

If you check out American Motorcyclist, Issue November 2003, on page 38, there's an article by Bill Wood called "Run what you Brung." IT shows how there are similar drag races in Ohio and all over. And to our XX chagrin, there's tons of Suzuki guys running in the low 9s and even 8.9 with terminal speeds over 150.

This type of racing is cheap, fun and legal. Here's another two economic mods that will improve your quarter mile time dramatically.

1) Translogic makes Quickshifters which run about a $1,000. However, you can get the no frills version for a mere $303 (System 6, you have to ask for it as most sites won't list it, they want to sell you the more expensive System). The ability to make full throttle upshifts without the clutch can save you a substantial amount of time in the quarter mile; and serious seconds on lap times on track days. An AFM friend who qualified for and ran in the AMA 600 race at Sears Point, a hardcore privateer -- told me about the Translogic shifter.

2) For a mere $167 you can get Techlusions new TFI box which can go on top of a PCII or PCII or be used by itself. The TFI box has four little clock faces where you set rpms levels to mimic carburetor jet adjustments, i.e., main jet, accelerator pump and the alike.

CONSEQUENTLY, FOR ABOUT $570 YOU CAN REDUCE QUARTER MILES TIMES BY ABOUT 2 SECONDS, from say 10.9 stock to 8.9 with above three mods. Compare this to spending $4,000 on Dynmags, PCIII with custom map, and Akropovic full system??? It's about the same performance increase but cost you only one-eighth as much.

Get it?

We as a group -- have the economic buying power to command real discounts on performance mods through group buys or by allowing discount advertising. So, it is to our advantage to sort out what is a rip off from what are real performance gains, and to evaluate these mods with genuine specificity. And to evaluate whether the performance gains come at a reasonable price for the amount of gain.

Hence, using hard physics equations and then testing on the track or strip is the only real way to get at the performance vs. price analysis with any certainty.

On the other hand, self testing on backroads or canyon carving can show a lot but usually only after the accumulation of a whole set of mods.

To feel whether only one mod made a significant difference is problematic when you are combining mods or when the bike has several mods already. As you must know, making large performance gains gets harder and harder the more advances you make because higher speeds are acquired -- not linearly but exponentially.

Example, 40 horse power can get a 500 lb. bike to 100 mph, but it takes 140 hp to get to 180 mph. If gains were linear every 40 hp should get you another 100 mph. IN A LINEAR WORLD, 160 hp would yield 400 mph.

Moreover, there's a myth that as your performance goes up each new performance mod gets more expensive. So don't think there's nothing left to do but go turbo or nitrous. If you make hard evaluations you can bust that myth. So let's do so.

Given all that, let's figure out if the Carrozzeria wheels are a genuine price break from Japan due to the economics of mass production or are just the latest scam. :roll: Q.E.D.

[Redbird]

Dude, are you for real?

Re-gearing? what a concept- do a search and you'll find a lot of info on it right here

There's bracket racing going on in America? Holy shit, thanks for sharing, I'd have never known.

Powershifters? there's one here- http://www.holeshot.com/goto?http://www.ho...in/welcome.html for around $200 if you're looking for cheap, but don't waste your money if you really believe this and some tuning is going to knock 2 seconds off your ET.

CONSEQUENTLY, FOR ABOUT $570 YOU CAN REDUCE QUARTER MILES TIMES BY ABOUT 2 SECONDS, from say 10.9 stock to 8.9 with above three mods. Compare this to spending $4,000 on Dynmags, PCIII with custom map, and Akropovic full system??? It's about the same performance increase but cost you only one-eighth as much.

You're high- get it?

We as a group -- have the economic buying power to command real discounts on performance mods through group buys or by allowing discount advertising. So, it is to our advantage to sort out what is a rip off from what are real performance gains, and to evaluate these mods with genuine specificity. And to evaluate whether the performance gains come at a reasonable price for the amount of gain.

Thanks for explaining that, it never occured to anyone here.

To feel whether only one mod made a significant difference is problematic when you are combining mods or when the bike has several mods already. As you must know, making large performance gains gets harder and harder the more advances you make because higher speeds are acquired -- not linearly but exponentially.

Again, thank you for enlightening us

Do you always come off this condescending, or is it just with people you've just met?

[ralfybebedosekys]

Hey, you Dude.

Let me clarify. Not there's no need to get insulting.

What brings peace is knowledge. So let me give you some. :cool:

************

Dude, are you for real?

YES.

Re-gearing? what a concept- do a search and you'll find a lot of info on it right here

I USED RE-GEARING AS AN EXAMPLE OF A CHEAP MOD, NOT AS A CONDESCENDING NOTICE TO THE SUPPOSEDLY IGNORANT. I SUGGEST YOU MIS-READ THAT OR DIDN'T READ CLOSE ENOUGH TO GET MY PURPOSE. SHAME ON YOU. MOREOVER, WHEN YOU ARE WRITING ON A BOARD WITH 896 MEMBERS, YOU OUGHT TO SPELL THINGS OUT SO EVERYONE CAN GET IT, WHICH IS WHAT i WAS DOING, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

There's bracket racing going on in America? Holy shit, thanks for sharing, I'd have never known.

THE RACING INFO WAS AIMED AT THE EARLIER COMMENT WHICH ASKED IF I WAS GOING TO ACTUALLY RACE AN XX. THIS REASONABLY CAUSED ME TO ASSUME THAT MANY OF THIS BOARD'S MEMBERS WERE MORE INTO SPORT TOURING, OR THAT CASUAL DRAG RACING WAS EITHER TOO EXPENSIVE OR NOT AVAILABLE. HENCE, I WENT OUT OF MY WAY TO SHOW THAT THERE ARE CHEAP AND FUN PLACES TO "RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG." FURTHER, there is a new class called Street ET, which allows any bike to run against any other by handicapping them. See the magazine article I sighted above.

Powershifters? there's one here- http://www.holeshot.com/goto?http://www.ho...in/welcome.html for around $200 if you're looking for cheap,

IN POINT OF FACT, DALE WALKER'S SYSTEM WILL COST YOU $363 IF IT WOULD WORK ON AN XX. BUT WALKER DOESN'T MAKE A BARREL TRIGGER FOR THE XX. SO YOU CAN'T GET A POWERSHIFTER FOR ANY AMOUNT FROM WALKER. WHEREAS, YOU CAN GET BARREL TRIGGER AND BLACKBOX AND SWITCH FOR ONLY $303 THAT WILL FIT AN XX. AGAIN WALKER DOES NOT MAKE A BARREL TRIGGER FOR US. TRANSLOGIC DOES AND IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

but don't waste your money if you really believe this and some tuning is going to knock 2 seconds off your ET.

WELL, THERE IS A PROBLEM HERE. AND I UNDERSTAND YOUR SKEPTICISM. THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU CAN ONLY GET 2 SECONDS OFF OF A COMPLETELY STOCK XX. WHY? IF YOU HAVE ALL THE COMMON MODS LIKE RACE CANS, PC, K&N... YOU'RE ALREADY HITTING THE "EXPONENTIAL" WALL WHERE ONLY SMALL GAINS CAN BE OBTAINED BECAUSE GREATER AND GREATER POWER INCREASES ARE NEEDED.

Quote:

You're high- get it?

NO. I'M NOT TOO HIGH IN PRICE BECAUSE WALKER'S $199 BOX IS ONLY HALF A SYSTEM, AND YOU CAN'T GET A WHOLE SYSTEM FROM HIM FOR THE XX.

...And to evaluate whether the performance gains come at a reasonable price for the amount of gain. ...Thanks for explaining that, it never occurred to anyone here.

THIS IS AN UNFAIR STATEMENT TO ME IF YOU READ THE WHOLE THREAD. IN FACT, IN MY FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT I DID NOT MENTION THIS BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS OBVIOUS, BUT AFTER IT APPEARED THAT PEOPLE WEREN'T GETTING THE IDEA, I FELT I HAD TO JUSTIFY MY POSITION. SO I WENT TO LENGTHS TO DO SO. NOW Y0U ARE SAYING THAT I AM DAMNED IF I DO AND DAMNED IF I DON'T.

...As you must know, making large performance gains gets harder and harder the more advances you make because higher speeds are acquired -- not linearly but exponentially. ...Again, thank you for enlightening us

GIVEN THE ARGUMENTATIVE NATURE OF TRYING TO COMMUNICATE WITH DOZENS OF NAY-SAYERS, IT IS ALMOST MANDATORY TO STATE BASIC PRINCIPALS AS BUILDING BLOCKS TO SUPPORT MORE COMPLICATED ARGUMENTS. PLEASE REREAD YOUR QUOTE FROM ME -- IT SAYS "AS YOU MUST KNOW..."

THAT IS SUPPOSED TO INDICATE THAT THE INFORMATION THAT FOLLOWS IS REVIEW. REVIEW INFORMATION IS PUT IN ANY TECHNICAL DISCUSSION AS A CONVENIENCE TO THE READER SO HE/SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO LOOK IT UP IN CASE IT SLIPPED THEIR READER'S MIND, AND ALSO FOR THOSE WHO LACK THE AUGUST INTELLECT OF THE LIKES OF A CERTAIN MR. REDBIRD.

Do you always come off this condescending, or is it just with people you've just met?

WELL, HONESTLY I NEVER INTENDED ANYTHING I WROTE IN THIS THREAD TO BE CONDESCENDING, EXCEPT PERHAPS THE LAST SHOT AT YOU R'BIRD. IF YOU READ THE WHOLE THREAD WITH A FORGIVING MIND, YOU MIGHT IMAGINE THAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DEFEND THE IDEA THAT REAL ANALYSIS OF COSTLY MODS IS VERY PROBLEMATIC. JUST WHAT IS WORTH SPENDING A TON OF MONEY ON AND WHAT ISN'T OUGHT TO BE A MATTER THAT WE FIGHT HARD ABOUT, AND PASSIONATELY ABOUT. AND IF YOU ARE A LONG TIME RACER OR A VETERAN WRENCH-JOCKEY WHO KNOWS IT ALL ALREADY... YOU SHOULDN'T COMPLAIN ABOUT NEWBIES SPELLING THINGS OUT SO EVERY LEVEL OF RIDER CAN PARTICIPATE IN THIS PUBLIC FORUM. OTHERWISE YOU ARE RELEGATING THIS FORUM OT ONLY THOSE WITH SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE -- WHICH IS A LIMITATION OF PURPOSE THAT DEFEATS US -- IT SAYS I'M TOO GOOD TO READ THIS REVIEW SHIT SO NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO READ IT. INSTEAD WHY NOT JUST SKIP OVER IT AND TAKE IN THE BASIC POINT, WHICH IS JUST HOW TO EVALUATE MODS WITH STRICT SPECIFICITY.

[TOXXIC]

You're high- get it?

NO. I'M NOT TOO HIGH IN PRICE BECAUSE WALKER'S $199 BOX IS ONLY HALF A SYSTEM, AND YOU CAN'T GET A WHOLE SYSTEM FROM HIM FOR THE XX.

Interesting thread. However, what was funnier than shit was Redbird saying, "You're high"

I'm CERTAIN he mean on a mind altering substance such as crack, meth, PCP, or LSD.

Gonna look into the shifter though. Sounds cool.

[Redbird]

I SUGGEST YOU MIS-READ THAT OR DIDN'T READ CLOSE ENOUGH TO GET MY PURPOSE. SHAME ON YOU

And I suggest, again, that, you're coming off condescending. Really. What is it you want here, anyway? You seem to be in possesion of all the answers, and while your willingness to share with us is touching, I'm not real clear on what you might want, other than a rapt audience for what you're saying. This is a serious question- what did you come here looking for?

IN POINT OF FACT, DALE WALKER'S SYSTEM WILL COST YOU $363 IF IT WOULD WORK ON AN XX. BUT WALKER DOESN'T MAKE A BARREL TRIGGER FOR THE XX. SO YOU CAN'T GET A POWERSHIFTER FOR ANY AMOUNT FROM WALKER. WHEREAS, YOU CAN GET BARREL TRIGGER AND BLACKBOX AND SWITCH FOR ONLY $303 THAT WILL FIT AN XX. AGAIN WALKER DOES NOT MAKE A BARREL TRIGGER FOR US. TRANSLOGIC DOES AND IT'S THAT SIMPLE.

I'll happily concede that point, but add that you're missing the gist of what I was trying to say there.....

WELL, THERE IS A PROBLEM HERE. AND I UNDERSTAND YOUR SKEPTICISM. THE PROBLEM IS THAT YOU CAN ONLY GET 2 SECONDS OFF OF A COMPLETELY STOCK XX.

...which was that simply isn't true. The XX will turn low 10s in the right hands (not mine, mind you), so with a gearing change, a powershifter and a Techlusion box it's an eight second bike? Low 8s even? I'm far from a dragracing authority, but I can tell you you're dreaming if you honestly believe that. You're misinforming those ignorant masses, all 896 of them, thank you very much.

NO. I'M NOT TOO HIGH IN PRICE BECAUSE WALKER'S $199 BOX IS ONLY HALF A SYSTEM, AND YOU CAN'T GET A WHOLE SYSTEM FROM HIM FOR THE XX.

That comment had nothing to do with any prices you quoted. You figure it out.

THIS IS AN UNFAIR STATEMENT TO ME IF YOU READ THE WHOLE THREAD. IN FACT, IN MY FIRST ANNOUNCEMENT I DID NOT MENTION THIS BECAUSE I THOUGHT IT WAS OBVIOUS, BUT AFTER IT APPEARED THAT PEOPLE WEREN'T GETTING THE IDEA, I FELT I HAD TO JUSTIFY MY POSITION. SO I WENT TO LENGTHS TO DO SO. NOW Y0U ARE SAYING THAT I AM DAMNED IF I DO AND DAMNED IF I DON'T.

I'm beginning to honstly believe that you feel that way, which explains a lot, but still.....

GIVEN THE ARGUMENTATIVE NATURE OF TRYING TO COMMUNICATE WITH DOZENS OF NAY-SAYERS, IT IS ALMOST MANDATORY TO STATE BASIC PRINCIPALS AS BUILDING BLOCKS TO SUPPORT MORE COMPLICATED ARGUMENTS. PLEASE REREAD YOUR QUOTE FROM ME -- IT SAYS "AS YOU MUST KNOW..."

THAT IS SUPPOSED TO INDICATE THAT THE INFORMATION THAT FOLLOWS IS REVIEW. REVIEW INFORMATION IS PUT IN ANY TECHNICAL DISCUSSION AS A CONVENIENCE TO THE READER SO HE/SHE DOESN'T HAVE TO LOOK IT UP IN CASE IT SLIPPED THEIR READER'S MIND, AND ALSO FOR THOSE WHO LACK THE AUGUST INTELLECT OF THE LIKES OF A CERTAIN MR. REDBIRD.

Dozens of nay-sayers? I might be reading the wrong thread, but you totally lost me there. That last bit was a nice shot, though. Feel free to call me Tim, and I can take a bit of abuse without kicking into ALL CAPS I'M SO ANGRY MODE, so please stop shouting and I won't start, 'kay?

WELL, HONESTLY I NEVER INTENDED ANYTHING I WROTE IN THIS THREAD TO BE CONDESCENDING, EXCEPT PERHAPS THE LAST SHOT AT YOU R'BIRD. IF YOU READ THE WHOLE THREAD WITH A FORGIVING MIND, YOU MIGHT IMAGINE THAT I HAVE BEEN TRYING TO DEFEND THE IDEA THAT REAL ANALYSIS OF COSTLY MODS IS VERY PROBLEMATIC. JUST WHAT IS WORTH SPENDING A TON OF MONEY ON AND WHAT ISN'T OUGHT TO BE A MATTER THAT WE FIGHT HARD ABOUT, AND PASSIONATELY ABOUT. AND IF YOU ARE A LONG TIME RACER OR A VETERAN WRENCH-JOCKEY WHO KNOWS IT ALL ALREADY... YOU SHOULDN'T COMPLAIN ABOUT NEWBIES SPELLING THINGS OUT SO EVERY LEVEL OF RIDER CAN PARTICIPATE IN THIS PUBLIC FORUM. OTHERWISE YOU ARE RELEGATING THIS FORUM OT ONLY THOSE WITH SPECIAL KNOWLEDGE -- WHICH IS A LIMITATION OF PURPOSE THAT DEFEATS US -- IT SAYS I'M TOO GOOD TO READ THIS REVIEW SHIT SO NO ONE SHOULD HAVE TO READ IT. INSTEAD WHY NOT JUST SKIP OVER IT AND TAKE IN THE BASIC POINT, WHICH IS JUST HOW TO EVALUATE MODS WITH STRICT SPECIFICITY.

See, if that was you're entire post, and you skipped the ANGRY CAPS, I'd be apologizing to you right now. You're obviously a pretty sharp guy, most likely smarter than myself, but leave room for the possibility that you may have been misinformed somewhere along the line, and that you may also be percieved as condescending even if that wasn't your intent.

It also helps to introduce yourself when joining a group of complete strangers asking for input, just a little advice for you there, and worth every penny you paid for it :wink:

[ralfybebedosekys]

And I suggest, again, that, you're coming off condescending... This is a serious question- what did you come here looking for?

HMM, I SERIOUSLY DON'T MEAN TO BE CONDESCENDING. I'M JUST TRYING TO BE SPECIFIC, THOROUGH AND CLEAR BY USING EXAMPLES AND DETAIL TO ILLUSTRATE IDEAS, WHICH MAY OR MAY NOT BE APPLICABLE. I EXPECT NOTHING LESS THAN FOR THINKING PEOPLE LIKE YOURSELF TO CHALLENGE ME, BECAUSE QUESTIONING THINGS IS THE ONLY REALLY WAY TO LEARN. IT'S ACTUALLY CALLED THE SOCRATIC METHOD, WHICH IS HOW THE ANCIENT GREEKS BUILT THEIR FIRST DEMOCRACIES, AND HOW THE WRIGHT BROTHERS INVENTED THE 1:25 RATIO WING AND AN 80% EFFICIENT PROPELLOR. THEY ARGUED THE HELL OUT OF EACH OTHER. SO DON'T BE AFRAID TO DISAGREE, I'M LOOKING FORWARD TO IT, BUT YOU'D BETTER BE GOOD AND HAVE A FOUNDATION FOR WHAT YOU SAY -- 'CAUSE I'M GOING TO CHALLENGER YOU AND KEEP YOU HONEST. JUST DON'T FALL INTO THE TRAP OF GETTING PERSONAL. KEEP YOUR PERSONAL EMOTIONS OUT OF IT. THAT'S NOT TO SAY YOU CAN'T ARGUE AS PASSIONATELY AS YOU WANT TO. IT IS TO SAY THAT YOUR PASSION SHOULD BE DIRECTED CONSTRUCTIVELY TOWARD GETTING AT THE UNDERLYING TRUTH OF THINGS. LIKE WHAT IS A SCAM AND WHAT IS A GOOD MOD.

The XX will turn low 10s in the right hands (not mine, mind you), so with a gearing change, a powershifter and a Techlusion box it's an eight second bike? Low 8s even? I'm far from a dragracing authority...

I THINK YOU'VE ANSWERED YOUR OWN QUESTION HERE. CAN YOU GUESS? ISN'T IT OBVIOUS? YES, YOU ARE RIGHT, BUT I AM ALSO. HOW? WELL, I CAN'T TURN LOW 10s WITH A STOCK BIKE. YES, THAT'S IT. I'M PRESUPPOSING AN AVERAGE RIDER WHO WOULD GO OUT ON A WEDNESDAY NIGHT AND PAY $14 TO DRAG IN A "RUN WHAT YOU BRUNG" RACE. WHILE YOU ARE SUPPOSING A PRO RIDER. LIKE YOU, I ALSO DO NOT BELIEVE YOU CAN GET INTO THE 8s WITH JUST A SPROCKET CHANGES, A SHIFTER AND A BLACK EFI BOX. BUT CONSIDER THIS, FOR ME ANYWAY, THE SHIFTER ALONE SHAVED ALMOST 4 SECONDS OFF MY FIRST ATTEMPT AT THE QUARTER MILE, WHICH WAS IN THE 14s. (I've dragged A FEW times and just broke 11 seconds with the shifter in September -- that was without sprocket and box. I'm now hoping to break 10 seconds). AND YES, IF YOU ARE GETTING INTO THE MID 9s OR LOWER - YOU ARE GETTING INTO THE HARD ZONE WHERE EVERY TENTH OF A SECOND COMES WITH GREAT EFFORT. HOWEVER, MY MAIN POINT WAS THAT FOR $500 YOU CAN GET AS MUCH PERFORMANCE INCREASE WITH SPROCKETS, TFI AND SHIFTER AS YOU COULD SPENDING $4,000 ON EXPENSIVE CARBON WHEELS, A FULL RACE EXHAUST AND CUSTOM EFI MAPPING. WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT? MY POINT IS TO AVOID SPENDING MONEY IN THE WRONG PLACES, AND TO GET PEOPLE TO HELP ME FIND THE BEST PERFORMANCE MODS FOR THE MONEY. YES, IT'S A PROBLEM BECAUSE BIKES ALREADY MOD'D HAVE A VERY HARD TIME MAKING MAJOR GAINS... YES???

Dozens of nay-sayers? I might be reading the wrong thread, but you totally lost me there. That last bit was a nice shot, though. Feel free to call me Tim, and I can take a bit of abuse without kicking into ALL CAPS I'M SO ANGRY MODE, so please stop shouting and I won't start, 'kay?

I THINK YOU'VE GOT ME THERE. I'VE BEEN USING ALL CAPS BECAUSE I'M TYPING THIS ON A NOTEPAD PROGRAM. I TIRED TO TYPE ON THE SITE BUT THE DARN THING IS SO LOW THAT IT DROVE ME CRAZY. I DON'T REGARD ALL CAPS AS SHOUTING. FOR

ME IT'S JUST THE EASIEST WAY TO TELL THE DIFFERENCE FROM WHAT YOU WROTE AND WHAT I WROTE THAT YOU QUOTED, AND ALSO IT'S EASIER TO READ ON THE WEBSITE SCREEN (AT LEAST FOR US OVER 40 DUDES) -- I HAVE BEEN PROOF READING ON THE LITTLE WEBSITE WINDOW. MAN, THOSE LETTERS ARE SMALL.

See, if that was you're entire post, and you skipped the ANGRY CAPS, I'd be apologizing to you right now. You're obviously a pretty sharp guy, most likely smarter than myself, but leave room for the possibility that you may have been misinformed somewhere along the line, and that you may also be perceived as condescending even

if that wasn't your intent.

ANGRY CAPS. NO ANGRY CAPS HERE. TRY TO THINK OF THESE CAPS AS JUST ALTERNATE LINES IN A DIALOGUE WHICH CAN HELP YOU FIND YOUR PLACE BY BEING OBVIOUSLY DIFFERENT. I HAVE HONESTLY NOT INTENDED THESE CAPS TO BE ANYTHING BUT DISTINGUISHABLE, AND EASIER TO TYPE.

It also helps to introduce yourself when joining a group of complete strangers asking for input, just a little advice for you there, and worth every penny you paid for it

I thought I did when I filled out the profile, and when I posted a parts for sale ad. I invited anyone in the Bay Area to stop by and check the stuff out. (How is this Italics? And where did you get the idea that caps were "angry." I remember a time in programming when all computers did was print caps, funny, I didn't know those darn machines were so pissed off; probably because all we gave them to do was count holes in cards all day. Man, I'd be pissed too with a knucklehead job like that.

[Redbird]

IT'S ACTUALLY CALLED THE SOCRATIC METHOD, WHICH IS HOW THE ANCIENT GREEKS BUILT THEIR FIRST DEMOCRACIES, AND HOW THE WRIGHT BROTHERS INVENTED THE 1:25 RATIO WING AND AN 80% EFFICIENT PROPELLOR

Thanks for sharing, but this is exactly what I'm talking about. Totally irrelevant, so why post it? Is it an attempt to educate me, or simply you saying "hey, looky here at what I can pull out of my hat..."?

I ALSO DO NOT BELIEVE YOU CAN GET INTO THE 8s WITH JUST A SPROCKET CHANGES, A SHIFTER AND A BLACK EFI BOX.

Mmmmm.......

CONSEQUENTLY, FOR ABOUT $570 YOU CAN REDUCE QUARTER MILES TIMES BY ABOUT 2 SECONDS, from say 10.9 stock to 8.9 with above three mods

You did say it, that's all I have to go by.

THE SHIFTER ALONE SHAVED ALMOST 4 SECONDS OFF MY FIRST ATTEMPT AT THE QUARTER MILE, WHICH WAS IN THE 14s. (I've dragged A FEW times and just broke 11 seconds with the shifter in September

.

I would say this says more about your own progress than the shifter. With more practice you probably would've broken 11 without the shifter

MY MAIN POINT WAS THAT FOR $500 YOU CAN GET AS MUCH PERFORMANCE INCREASE WITH SPROCKETS, TFI AND SHIFTER AS YOU COULD SPENDING $4,000 ON EXPENSIVE CARBON WHEELS, A FULL RACE EXHAUST AND CUSTOM EFI MAPPING. WOULD YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

No. How many dragracers you know that are springing for carbon wheels, anyway? You sound like a guy who's done just enough reading to be dangerous. Are you interested in mods specific to dragracing? Extend the swingarm, lower the bike and strap the front, you'll be amazed how much this might help. If dragracing is specifically what you're looking for info on, there are a couple guys here you can help you, but you'd probably do better to go to a drag specific forum.

ANGRY CAPS. NO ANGRY CAPS HERE. TRY TO THINK OF THESE CAPS AS JUST ALTERNATE LINES IN A DIALOGUE WHICH CAN HELP YOU FIND YOUR PLACE BY BEING OBVIOUSLY DIFFERENT. I HAVE HONESTLY NOT INTENDED THESE CAPS TO BE ANYTHING BUT DISTINGUISHABLE, AND EASIER TO TYPE.

Caps are widely accepted to be "shouting" on online forums, I'd think a guy who likes going on about Socratic method and the Wright brother's 80% efficient prop might be hip to this little tidbit, and now I suppose you are. Italics are much nicer.

I gotta go to work, I'm sure someone more knowledgable than myself will check in from work today and maybe help you out. I can tell you if you're talkng dragracing, the wheels are a waste of money, spend it elsewhere. I think that was your original question, but I'm not sure......

[N1K]

What a dork....

[SwampNut]

Reminds me of the people I met at my first--and last--Mensa meeting.

[Rainchaser]

more thrust

thrust is equal to ... primary drive

thrust has to move the weight

the thrust acts on the total weight of the rider

thrust, total mass and rotating mass and the coefficient of grip

The more you can increase the grip

increase thrust

All this thrusting and I've got a chubby.