Pete in PA Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 I wanted to settle this "don't use Energy Conserving Oil" thing for myself. At 75,000 miles now I just did my oil change with 3 quarts M1 10-30 and one quart M1 15-50. Now I 'll see if my clutch slips at the speed of light. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airborneXX Posted October 22, 2006 Share Posted October 22, 2006 Yer fucked Keep us posted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXSTAR Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 let us know where to bring the truck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhawkxx Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 A few years ago I put it in a Goldwing for a while and didn't notice any difference. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBBXX Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 "Friction Modifiers" are designed to reduce the amount of friction between moving parts in an engine. The clutch depends on friction to work. It's the foundation of its design. I was once too stupid to realise how foolish it was to use oil of that type. I'm now convinced it does cause slippage and possible damage to the clutch. I actually thought I had ruined my clutch, as it took a couple of oil changes to clear up completely. You may not notice it right away, but give it a few oil changes. The stuff imbeds itself in the clutch plates. If you're the kind of person who needs to find these things out themselves, fill your boots. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Do so if you wish, and let us know... I will say, though, that it trashed the clutch on my Nighthawk at 7,000 miles... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Do so if you wish, and let us know... I will say, though, that it trashed the clutch on my Nighthawk at 7,000 miles... It also killed my ST1100 clutch................. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 Do so if you wish, and let us know... I will say, though, that it trashed the clutch on my Nighthawk at 7,000 miles... It also killed my ST1100 clutch................. Was it the OIL........... or was it the Rider ??? ? I switch back and forth every oil change... never had any problems yet. Currently I'm running straight 15w-50. and. The shifting is noticably better with the thicker Erl in her. But alas... I don't do slip the clutch, but maybe once or twice a year, no Drag racing for my baby... so maybe there in lies the heart of it. Ps. If you do think it's causing you clutch slippage.... you can always pull the clutch plates, wash them off with Brake cleaner and re-use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sykotek-xx Posted October 23, 2006 Share Posted October 23, 2006 One time I fucked up and bought energy conserving synthetic, for the second oil change on my 3000-mile old 750 Katana. Clutch was toasted almost instantly, and changing the oil back to non EC didn't help. Good luck, though! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Was it the OIL........... or was it the Rider ??? mine was the oil... I hadn't started to run the pissout of that bike yet, and it had a lot of power compared to the 250 thumper I had before, so using the clutch was mostly a "drop it at idle and go" affair... After about ~1000 miles, I noticed that the clutch would start to slip above 7000rpm, so I thought the clutch was toast, and purchased a Barnett kevlar clutch and in stalled it. I was confused, because the old plates LOOKED in good shape, and I took them to the lab and measured them, and they were WELL within thickness spec... Only then, did I find out not to use car oil on bikes... Oh well, live and learn... The XX, simply because of its WAY over-built clutch may be OK doing it though, as long as you don't drag race the thing... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in PA Posted October 24, 2006 Author Share Posted October 24, 2006 "Friction Modifiers" are designed to reduce the amount of friction between moving parts in an engine. The clutch depends on friction to work. It's the foundation of its design. What do you think oil is??? It's a friction modifier! That dog won't hunt! When Sport Rider/Consumer Reports (I thought it was the SAME test) tested oil there were some motorcycle oils that had a ton of moly in them. M1 doesn't. I've been looking for a new oil since Mobil changed the Truck & SUV oil to a 10-30 and if I have to mix to get what I want I will. If mine starts slipping you can laugh then. No problems at 200 miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canadian Bird Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 What is "energy saving oil"? Do you mean "car" oil, "synthetic" oil. WTF is it? :icon_duh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBBXX Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 What is "energy saving oil"? Do you mean "car" oil, "synthetic" oil. WTF is it? :icon_duh: Here's a pretty good article Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Do so if you wish, and let us know... I will say, though, that it trashed the clutch on my Nighthawk at 7,000 miles... It also killed my ST1100 clutch................. Was it the OIL........... or was it the Rider ??? Hi Eric. In this instance, it was a very bad case of both. Admittedly, I was very hard on he ST1100 clutch. Desperately trying to keep XX's in your sight will do that I guess. It also had about 40,000 miles on it but ST clutches are known for two to three times that mileage. It never slipped until I used MX4T and then slipped within the first hundred miles. Way too coincidental in my opinion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoloTSi97 Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Okay, so this is the first oil thread I've seen since joining here. Is the consensus that using "car" oil in a bike will cause clutch issues, or is there more to it than that? Just curious, as I've used Mobil1 Syn in my F3 for the past 4 years/20k miles with no issues to report. I'll be doing the fall oil change on the 'Bird here soon, and if I hadn't seen this thread I'd have done the same for it as well. -Bob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rockmeupto125 Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 Just to hear the sound of my own voice.... Mobil 1 for the last 30000 miles. You guys know how much abuse that clutch gets. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ActionStarCBRxx Posted October 24, 2006 Share Posted October 24, 2006 What is "energy saving oil"? Do you mean "car" oil, "synthetic" oil. WTF is it? :icon_duh: Here's a pretty good article *** Nice article... I had not seen that one. I knew not to use Auto Oil in Motorcycles... but the article really explained why. I hate having to know all them acrynoms... The analogy of the tooth picks and chewing is a good visual. Definitly not something I need to do to verify... I can learn from others. thanks again! :icon_clap: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomek Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Oil tread. It is worse then religion treads. I always love when new/newer members try to enlighten us about dangers of using car oil in motorcycles. :icon_wall: :icon_wall: ,althougt old timers on this forum logged hundreds of K miles on car synthetics like M1 15w/50 or rotella 5w/40.My XX has 93 K miles,never seen motorcycle spec oil. I`ve been using M1 SM 0w /40 on my track bike becouse it gives hp boost.The only thing that slips is a rear tire at corner exits.Would motocycle oil cure that problem?? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Oil tread. It is worse then religion treads. I always love when new/newer members try to enlighten us about dangers of using car oil in motorcycles. :icon_wall: :icon_wall: ,althougt old timers on this forum logged hundreds of K miles on car synthetics like M1 15w/50 or rotella 5w/40.My XX has 93 K miles,never seen motorcycle spec oil. I`ve been using M1 SM 0w /40 on my track bike becouse it gives hp boost.The only thing that slips is a rear tire at corner exits.Would motocycle oil cure that problem?? car oils are OK as long as they don't say "energy conserving" on the label... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in PA Posted October 25, 2006 Author Share Posted October 25, 2006 I give this article WAY more credit. http://www.vmaxoutlaw.com/tech/motorcycle_oil.htm That other one tells you basiclly that when they stop making SG oil you must sell your car/bike and get a new one that can handle the next rating. Mike's makes more sense. If the API makes a new rating it covers all the old ratings. For Byrdman MX4T IS M1's motorcycle oil that wasn't your problem. I'll continue abusing my clutch climbing mountains hard near redline. Just to clarify I'm using (been using) M1 car oils and now also commiting the cardinal sin of using "energy conserving" oil also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBBXX Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Oil tread. I always love when new/newer members try to enlighten us about dangers of using car oil in motorcycles. :icon_wall: :icon_wall: ,althougt old timers on this forum logged hundreds of K miles on car synthetics like M1 15w/50 or rotella 5w/40.My XX has 93 K miles,never seen motorcycle spec oil. And what of those of us who have actually experienced the ill effects of using oil with the wrong additives. Are we just making this shit up? I'm not disputing the fact that many have used them with no problems. I'm just not one of them. All I'm saying is go ahead and roll the dice as long as you're prepared if it happens to come up craps. When my problems surfaced I was using Mobil 1. BTW as Mike pointed out, I'm not preaching not to use auto oils, just make sure you know what's in them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 I give this article WAY more credit. http://www.vmaxoutlaw.com/tech/motorcycle_oil.htm That other one tells you basiclly that when they stop making SG oil you must sell your car/bike and get a new one that can handle the next rating. Mike's makes more sense. If the API makes a new rating it covers all the old ratings. For Byrdman MX4T IS M1's motorcycle oil that wasn't your problem. I'll continue abusing my clutch climbing mountains hard near redline. Just to clarify I'm using (been using) M1 car oils and now also commiting the cardinal sin of using "energy conserving" oil also. I think Jeff meant that since MX4T uses a lot of Moly, unlike most other wet clutch compatible oils, that helped cause his clutch to slip... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Oil tread. It is worse then religion treads. True.... but only because Oil threads have usefull information... like this... What's your Oil got IN IT ! Look here... http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/voalibrary.html And here's a few samples to save you the trouble. ( and... notice the Calcium and Zinc levels... hint hint ) (at the bottom of the page.) Just to hear the sound of my own voice.... Mobil 1 for the last 30000 miles. You guys know how much abuse that clutch gets. You don't say...... Hmmm.... imagine that ! 30,000 miles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rockmeupto125 Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 Are we just making this shit up? I'm not disputing the fact that many have used them with no problems. I'm just not one of them. All I'm saying is go ahead and roll the dice as long as you're prepared if it happens to come up craps. I'm not preaching not to use auto oils, just make sure you know what's in them. Point 1. I think we really have to look for other causative factors in many instances here. My buddy and I rebuilt a VW engine, broke it in on dino oil, and switched it over Mobil synthetic. That's when the clutch started slipping. Was it the Mobil 1? No, of course not...its a dry clutch, and the seal didn't leak. The clutch slipped because of our willingness, after changing the break-in oil, to explore the horsepower of the new engine, coupled with a well polished clutch disk, and a pressure plate that wasn't built for more horsepower than stock. The point is, things are not always what you think...look further for an explanation. Point 2. I mean, we discuss oil in regards to the clutches as if dino oil has sandpaper in it, or some marvelous miracle ingredient that makes it, at the extremes of pressure and heat, and just the right place and time, suddenly become a super stick-em. It does that, but not in a motor thats gonna run for long, fellahs. Truth is, oil ain't nowhere near that smart. Regular dinosaurs already contributed a nice long chain carbon molecule to the machinery industry, and its those long molecular chains that give oil its ability to maintain a layer of lubricant. Synthetic oils are copies of those long strings made in a controlled environment with stronger chemical bonds that resist the fracturing of those strings under repetitive heat cycles.....and that's the worth of synthetic oil....longer change intervals. The same additives that help keep contaminants in suspension and buffer the acidity of those contaminants is added to both dino and regular oils. So does that mean that synth oil isn't slippery-er than dino oil? No, I'm not suggesting that. But if it were THAT much more slippery than regular oil, we'd not only need a different engine technology to use it, but there wouldn't be anyone NOT using it. Manufactures would murder for a way to decrease internal friction loss by even 20%....the cost savings would be astounding. There's nothing to indicate that synthetic oil is the holy grail, by any means. Point 3. I look at the way a modern wet clutch works, and truly wonder how changing the oil could make a difference in its performance. I mean, you'd need grease in there to screw it up. Those plates are made with stuff called friction material bonded right to them. Its designed and purposely made not to slip...while running in an oil bath. There's grooves and channels made to handle the oil flow and allow the clutch to work properly in that environment. So what is it about using synthetic oil that would cause a clutch to slip? Look at what makes something like a clutch plate grip or grab. What makes friction? Well...the lack of a smooth surface, right? Look at a road. Its chock full of little holes and hills that your rubbery, bendy tire surface can just mold right into....creating a grip..or friction. You know that's so...because you've all had the oportunity to ride on a very smooth section of pavement or concrete (maybe not on a road, but an access approach, or just a small area patch, cuz engineers are generally smarter than that) and noticed that puckery effect around your butt when you suddenly slipped or spun a tire...because your friction went away. Wouldn't want oil on that, would you? Hell, NO! But here's the thing....with deep enough hills and valleys on the "microsurface" of that concrete patch, you could put a layer of oil on it and see no difference in the friction component....and that's exactly the design of a wet clutch. Assembling all this----point 3 says a wet clutch should work no matter what oil is used, point 2 says that synth is not incredibly more slippery than dino oil, and point 1 suggests you not assume the oil is the culprit if your clutch is slipping. If your clutch is marginal, either with worn plates or tired springs, its certainly conceivable that your clutch might slip. If your clutch is operating at 8.2 kg/square inch of pressure when it needs 8.0 kg to meet the necessary coefficient of friction and your oil change decreases friction by 5%.....its gonna slip. Am I saying that you folks who've experienced this are pathological liars, or deluded? No....I'm saying that I'm willing to believe there's another cause, and that I really don't know the answer. See...you read this far to find out that I don't know any more about it than you do. Cool, huh? I know there are a lot of engineers (say that with a hard "g" please) out there who can quote formulas about friction, and oil, and clutch plate deangification relative to the phase of the moon...please don't bother. It wouldn't help in any way, or hold up against or for my argument...because I made it all up this morning while sipping my coffee. Your theories won't work in MY universe. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SBBXX Posted October 25, 2006 Share Posted October 25, 2006 And here's a few samples to save you the trouble. ( and... notice the Calcium and Zinc levels... hint hint ) (at the bottom of the page.) Wow, thanks for the pics because I couldn't view them from work. What's really an eye opener is that the highest concentration between the 4 of Moly is is the M1 MX4T. The M1 15-50, which I was led to believe had very little, is the second highest. Too bad the Honda oil isn't there. Awesome post, thank you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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