HELP please

[arcticflipper]

I've been looking into fork spring upgrades, and now after placing the order, and waiting for the last 2 weeks allready, now this comes back to me....

I was just been informed by the factory that they do not recommend the progressive springs any more for the CBR 1100 XX. The reason is that the bike is "riding very low" from the factory with the progressive springs.

The springs they are offering now are straight rate springs with either 9.0 Nmm or 9.5 Nmm rate.

The price is the same. I did talk to some people who have the new springs and they are happy with it. The bike is riding higher up and does not dive significantly when braking

Ok the order was for a progressive fork spring.

I don't have a clue as to what I'm reading here, so what I'm understanding now is that I will have the same type of spring as what I currently have in the XX, just with another name on it?

Is this correct?

Then WTF is the point of spending the USD ???

Bastards.....

[99Birdman]

Actually, I believe the factory spring is a progressive .89 spring. The Wilburs springs many of us bought in a previous group buy were linear (aka straight rate or non-progressive) .9 or 1.0 springs. When installing the new springs, you use a different amount and weight of oil than stock. I'm happy with my Wilburs .9 spring with 150mm air gap and 2.5wt oil but I only weigh about 175lbs.

[arcticflipper]

Shaaait I'm much lighter than that.... 65 KG's

donno the pounds there...

So the reply I got back from them is that then the same thing you guys bought, and is it still worth my while or should I rather go elswhere for the full progressive spring?

The guys were talking about the spring increasing the ride height?

Have you guys had anything like this?

[99Birdman]

65 kg = 143 lbs.

I'm ceretainly no suspension expert but,the general feeling, I believe, is that the XX is undersprung and overdampened as it comes from the factory. Any of the aftermarket springs with the proper oil amount and weight should give you an improvement. Most of the guys on here are considerably heavier than you so they noticed a big difference with the new springs. Helvet really seems to like the Hyperpro springs and I think they are progressive. I was tempted to run a little less oil and larger air gap since I am lighter than the board average but it seems to work well with the recommended 150mm air gap. If you go with the Wilburs, you might consider using slightly less oil at your weight.

[99Birdman]

BTW - I noticed no difference in ride height and my sag was right on at 30mm with the new springs and standard spacer.

[arcticflipper]

Was there a noticable handeling improvement, in other words is it still worth my while to then upgrade to these springs.

I have allready dropped the front by 1", but have not yet shimmed the rear.

I have 56 000 km on the clock, and have never touched the suspension - replacing oils, springs or anything.

I am able to drag a knee in corners currently, but would like to get a bit more stability when you pick the bike up out of a corner.

It sometimes waddles a bit out of the corner, and there is a bit of oversteering from the back, This might be due to the power being delivered so quickly to the rear, and the weight of the bike.

[XXTi]

Have you checked Jaws web site for fork springs? Look in the vendors section for a link.

[Pete in PA]

I've got HyperPro springs being shipped after talking to Doug in the US here.

Even with my weight of 300lbs. (136 kg) He says the progressive spring will be fine.

I'm installing over the winter and I'll let everyone know in the spring how it rides.

[Helvet]

I've been looking into fork spring upgrades, and now after placing the order, and waiting for the last 2 weeks allready, now this comes back to me....

I was just been informed by the factory that they do not recommend the progressive springs any more for the CBR 1100 XX. The reason is that the bike is "riding very low" from the factory with the progressive springs.

The springs they are offering now are straight rate springs with either 9.0 Nmm or 9.5 Nmm rate.

The price is the same. I did talk to some people who have the new springs and they are happy with it. The bike is riding higher up and does not dive significantly when braking

Ok the order was for a progressive fork spring.

I don't have a clue as to what I'm reading here, so what I'm understanding now is that I will have the same type of spring as what I currently have in the XX, just with another name on it?

Is this correct?

Then WTF is the point of spending the USD ???

Bastards.....

You got me really confused here.....

Did you try to buy progressive springs from Honda? What's the point of that? If they didn't get it right the first time, why do you think they will get it right this time?

Or did you try to buy progressive springs from a suspension-factory? Which one?

They will all tell you that they don't like the progressive springs, or that they don't make them anymore, because Hyperpro has a patend on fully progressive springs....

They still make them, and they work great! Especcially for a lighter rider, you can even drop the front a little more....

[XXTi]

They will all tell you that they don't like the progressive springs, or that they don't make them anymore, because Hyperpro har a patend on fully progressive springs....

How the hell can someone patent a progressive spring? They have been around and in common use in various applications for decades.

[arcticflipper]

OK so this is now the reply that I've received after a couple of days, and also a bit of research on my side.

I have to say that I weren't in the least bit impressed when i received the previous posted info from them.

The whole story began with a post regarding suspension upgrades.

The first thing every one on this site said was to upgrade the fork springs, and then also to lower the front with 1"

Great! was my first impression, until I started looking into what is available on the market, and shaaaaiiiiiiitttt there is just too damn many manufacturers. Great for lowering prices, shit for making a informed decision.

So I looked back on the forum and found that there was a group buy on Wilbers a while ago.

Contacted them, after getting the right measuremnet off another site, that was also posted on one of the many suspension threads.

Now Helvet has convinced me kinda that the progressive spring is the best thing since sliced cheese, or bread or both....

And yes Wilbers did have a progressive spring - the Hyper Pro spring that they resold for less than what I could get it from HyperPro USA, or Helvet

Asked them for a flowchart, and compared it to the flowchart on the HyperPro site, and presto - it matched - same spring!

Now I'm really happy, but still not too sure so I start asking the local guys here in South Africa, England, Germany, Australia ..... etc.

And I have to say that the majority of all manufaturers and riders and specialists came back with a reply that the progressive springs is not to be used in the XX.

Even blackbirdspares.co.uk gave me this advice.

Then I get feedback that Wilbers do not, or is not prepared to supply me with the progressive spring due to the reasons mentioned above, and now I'm really confused.

So I read that someone is installing the Hyper Pro Springs, and I know that Helvet and the guys in the Netherlands are using these, but the question will now be to all...

Please keep us up to date with the performance of these springs, and also how these stand up after a couple of months and also a year or two...

This is the reply that I now have received directly from Wilbers.

"I was assured by the technicians that the straight rate spring is the only correct change for this bike model, a progressive version is not satisfactory.

Wilbers is selling also Hyperpro springs and we know about the complains from the customers about Hyperpro products. Their steering dampers are excellent, but the spring policy is open for improvements."

I know that Helvet has mentioned that Wilbers and HyperPro has had a tiff of some sorts, but it seems like they are still selling the Hyper Pro stock.

I am aware that there will always be competition amongst companies, but the fact that after I spoke to and got emails back from over 300 people, and the majority did not like the Progressive spring setup surely does mean something.

I still aggree completely with the HyperPro explanation on the website, but would like to get some more actually tested feedback over a prolonged time period.

Unfortunately our ZAR Currency is very weak, and therfor I can't import both the linear and the progressive springs to test, so I will have to ask for help from people who allready have it installed, or is installing them soon. - Progressive springs.

[Pete in PA]

Recieved my HyperPro box already yesterday. Fast shipping!

I'll be doing the swap over the winter (we just got 8 in. of snow) so I won't have a ride report for a while.

I also wonder how they can patent a progressive spring.

http://www.progressivesuspension.com/ Has been selling them for years. It does bother me they don't have any springs for the XX, Why?

Makes me worry about the "don't use progressive springs on the XX" thing.

I went ahead with HyperPro based on Helvet and talking to Doug, hope I'll be happy.

[rodantking]

Add me to the confused list.

If it is about it being low how come no one is talking up about draging parts on the several suspension treads that have been passing the last month? Weight doesn't make any sence because W.C. posted he put them on his FJR which is 150 pounds more than the XX.

This is on my winter list so I will be watching close.

[Redbird]

I seriously doubt that the springs installed on Warchild's FJ are the same rate as the ones sold for the XX.

That said, it makes no sense to me that they sell the same spring to everyone (on an XX) regardless of weight. Do they even make any recommendations on pre-load or spacer length?

[tomek]

I just wanna mention one thing in this "proggresive " spring issue.

In case of the front fork,it is progressive anyway even with straight rate spring due to the air gap being compressed and acting like progressive spring .With progressive spring it just gets more ,,,,,,,,,,uhm,progressive.

If you increase air gap it gets less progressive and vice-versa.

[Helvet]

They will all tell you that they don't like the progressive springs, or that they don't make them anymore, because Hyperpro har a patend on fully progressive springs....

How the hell can someone patent a progressive spring? They have been around and in common use in various applications for decades.

OK guys, I'll try to explain this:

1. a linear spring. This is wound in such a way that the gap between each winding is the same. Both the top and bottom part can be wound tighter. This spring gives a certain pressure for every inch you press it extra. For instance, the first inch gives 1 kilogram pressure. The second inch gives another 1 kilogram, making 2 kilogramms. This way 10 inches (no dirty jokes here please) gives 10 kilograms pressure.

2. a progressive spring. Yes, these have been around for ages, however this is the biggest fake ever! What is commonly known as a progressive spring is NOT a progressive spring, it's just 2 linear springs on top of each other (in one spring ofcourse, not 2). In this case you have a weaker spring, and a softer spring. The tight wound is the soft part, the looser wound is the harder part. If you compress these springs, you will see that the softer part gets pressed first, untill it reaches a point where you have enough forces to compress the stiffer part of the spring. Usually the hardest you can compress the soft spring (that is untill the windings are very close together, or even touching) is the stage where the stiffer spring just starts to work.

For instance: the first 5 inches you get 5 kilograms of counterforce. After this the second spring starts, and this gives 2 kilograms per Inch. So, the sixt Inch you have 7 kilos, the seventh you get 9 kilos, and the tenth you have 15 kilos. This is the way most motorcyclesprings are made.

3. a fully progressive spring. This is Hyperpro. In this case every winding of the spring is different, or I should say the gap is different. Every Inch you press this spring adds a different force to the total, progressively increasing.....

For instance, the first Inch gives 0.8 kilo, the second another 1.0, the third 1.2 and so on.... This way you get at 5 Inches 6 kilos, and at 10 Inches the same 17 kilos. This spring is the same size and weight as the progressive one, but wound differently. And yes, this type of spring is patented (for use in shocks that is) by Hyperpro.

The effect is that the first part of the spring is softer (more comfortable riding), and the last part is stiffer (giving better ground-clearance, higher curve-speeds, and less affected by bumps).

Also the Hypepro springs are polished so that they give less friction and less wear than others (like the Wilbers).

Is this clear? If anybody has any questions, I will be more than happy to explain....

We are very interested (me as a Hyperpro dealer, and aslo the Hyperpro factory which flow-charts you have compaired between Wilbers and Hyperpro because it is impossible that they are the same....).

Can you send me a copy?

This is not to use in court or something, but certain parties are telling you an incomplete or even totally false story..... The strenght of a good organisation depends on sending out the correct answers to questions customers have, and in this case there is a lot of wrong info around....

[Pete in PA]

I've since read the directions with the HyperPro springs and They just use the stock fork spacers. They also increased the "air chamber", fork oil setting is 140mm with 7.5 wt. oil.

On the spec list they have static sag but it's not the "normal" static sag. They want 25mm without rider, just the bike.

On the rear they want 10mm of no rider static sag. I'll set it up that way initially, ride it and check, but I think I'll wind up setting it up for my weight with PVC in the front and the rings in the rear.

They also include 2 (why?) 6mm spacers for the shock which I don't think I'll use due to all the chain adjustment problems. (dragging on centerstand, not knowing the correct chain sag, etc.) I like how it handles just fine the way it is.

BTW: no video with it, just genaric instructions with an XX specific page on the front.

For those who like purple, the rear spring is a real bright purple, I'm OK with it.

[rodantking]

They also include 2 (why?) 6mm spacers for the shock which I don't think I'll use due to all the chain adjustment problems. (dragging on centerstand, not knowing the correct chain sag, etc.) I like how it handles just fine the way it is.

Why would it affect the chain? The way I've read it you are lifting on top of the shock mount. I need to go look at what you saying when it warms up, but I haven't invisioned it beening a problem.

[Pete in PA]

Due to the Pro-Link shock linkage, raising the rear of the bike 6mm at the shock mount multiplies the movement at the end of the swingarm.

For anyone that's done it, how much higher is the rear end?

The chain is tightest when the sprockets and swingarm pivot are on the same plane.

The chain tension spec. is for when the rear suspension is topped out. Now you've gone and moved that position so now where do you set it?

People that have done this have had the chain rub on the centerstand when they had what they thought was the proper chain slack.

I'm fine with the steering as it is, I don't need to speed it up any. Besides, the HyperPro instructions have you moving the forks up in the tree also for a total stickout height of 45mm above the top yoke.

[Redbird]

Shock linkage is ~ 3/1, so you'll see about 18mm change at the axle. I've never had any problem with the chain rubbing the swingarm.

Not everyone agrees on terminology, but the way I understand it-

Static sag= bike only with suspension settled.

Rider sag= bike w/rider with suspension settled.

Good writeup here hits all the high points- http://www.cbrworld.net/FIREBLADE/suspensi...ds_by_andy_.htm

[Helvet]

The chain tension spec. is for when the rear suspension is topped out. Now you've gone and moved that position so now where do you set it?

People that have done this have had the chain rub on the centerstand when they had what they thought was the proper chain slack.

I'm fine with the steering as it is, I don't need to speed it up any. Besides, the HyperPro instructions have you moving the forks up in the tree also for a total stickout height of 45mm above the top yoke.

You adjust chain-slack on the centrestand. Yes, with proper settings, the chain is more loose at the moment the suspension is under full compression. This will not cause problems, but just keep an eye on it that it will not come too loose.

Yes, Hyperpro advises to move the forks up in the tree. That is because their springs are not only longer, but the will have a smaller static sag. If you don't move the forks, the bike's ride-height will be higher than original on the front, and the geometry will change.

Since there is no downside to moving the forks as they advise, why shoudn't you do it? The maximum travel will still be the same, and ground-clearance is plenty! I don't understand.....

You will have a bike that is great in a straight line, but that will hesitate to corner.....

It's a 15 minute job, so why won't you just try it? You can always undo it....

[Redbird]

That is because their springs are not only longer, but the will have a smaller static sag.

Length of the springs is irrelevant, the forks are only so long fully extended no matter what springs you stuff in there. Sag is relevant to steering geometry, but if they have no idea of the load, and thus the sag, so how can they make recommendations to correct for a number they don't have? I can tell you that if Pete sets his unloaded sag at 25mm, his loaded sag is going to be waaay up there- too high by anyone but Hyperpro's standards.

They seem to be selling a one size fits all spring kit, complete with unloaded sag recommendations, which makes absolutely no sense to me. I'm far from a suspension expert, but a 300lbs guy and a 180lbs guy being sold the same spring and being told to use the same preload just goes against what little I do know. Perhaps the language barrier is interfering here a bit, but I completely fail to see what the allure of the whole Hyperpro thing is.

[Guest rockmeupto125]

Since there is no downside to moving the forks as they advise, why shoudn't you do it? The maximum travel will still be the same, and ground-clearance is plenty! I don't understand.....

Perhaps if you nearly doubled your size, you would understand. If you've seen a picture of my bike, you've seen the scrape marks in the fairings, and the bent centerstand arm....

[Pete in PA]

Helvet I AM going to raise the forks up in the trees, I already have had them raised for some time, just don't know exactly how much currently.

What I'm not going to do is add the 6mm spacer to the shock at this time.

I agree with Redbird on the forks, unless the springs coil bind at full compression, the travel remains the same no matter what you stuff in there.

I do question the rear Pro-link though. I thought it was a progressive ratio not just a constant 3 to 1 in that at small bumps it moves easily then near full compression the ratio goes higher to stop bottoming.

[Helvet]

Since there is no downside to moving the forks as they advise, why shoudn't you do it? The maximum travel will still be the same, and ground-clearance is plenty! I don't understand.....

Perhaps if you nearly doubled your size, you would understand. If you've seen a picture of my bike, you've seen the scrape marks in the fairings, and the bent centerstand arm....

I had the same problem...... untill I installed the Hyperpro's. Yes, it's hard to explain in another language than your own, but I'll try....

Because the spring rate increases even more when loaded, the difference when riding in sag is not as big as a normal progressive spring. The lean-angle you are talking about is at the end of travel of the spring. If you look at the Hyperpro spring, the force it delivers in this region is much larger than conventional springs, and it is still comfortable with slower speeds. I used to scrape the fairing as well, and also the centrestand. I just bought a new centerstand because it's beginning to annoy me.....

When I mounted the HP's, I found I could corner a lot faster without anything touching the ground. I mounted Gilles footrests before to get more groundclearance, but they are not necessary now.

Yes, I am a leightweight rider, but even heavyweight riders will benefit of this (and even more). Now I never come to the end of the suspensiontravel, and before it happened a lot.....

The lenght of the springs IS a factor that counts. With longer springs you will reduce the static sag (if the spring has the same strenght that is). It will therefore give you more suspensiontravel....

Also a fully progressive spring has no resonance-moment (I don't know the correct word). All springs will start to jump around when you go to a certain frequency. I guess we have all seen older cars with weak suspension go over the bumps at a trafficlight. With the exact right speed the suspension will loose all contact with the road, and just jump around. The oil will provide damping in a good system when this happens, but the spring wants to react this way. If we ride over these bumps you will feel the front losing contact. With HP's this is much less because it is not frequency dependant.

If you get the chance, compair a Blackbird with Hyperpro springs with a standard one, and find a third with Öhlins or Racetech. We did the comparison, and had the bikes set up by the factory.

Everybody doing the testrides (over 30) chose the HP.....