HELP please

[Redbird]

I do question the rear Pro-link though. I thought it was a progressive ratio not just a constant 3 to 1 in that at small bumps it moves easily then near full compression the ratio goes higher to stop bottoming.

I won't argue that, Pete, as I haven't really delved into it. I was told 3/1 at one point and went with it as it agrees with the final measurements I got after shimming, but that may well change as the swingarm moves.

I'm guilty of regurgitating info there, something I usully try to avoid without at least qualifying it.

[Helvet]

I agree with Redbird on the forks, unless the springs coil bind at full compression, the travel remains the same no matter what you stuff in there.

Yes and no.....

All suspension has a certain travellenght, both in positive and negative direction. With longer springs you make the negative travel shorter, and the positive longer......

[Guest rockmeupto125]

Not to join a hyperpro argument (I've voiced my feelings before) but to clarify....

I don't corner that aggressively with my brakes on. I have video which can demonstrate that my forks are not fully compressed in corners, and I have Racetech 1.06 springs. Centrifugal forces will compress the springs a wee bit, but not enough to bottom them out.

And my Ohlins shock is raised 6mm over stock.

Dropping your trees on the forks WILL lower the bike enough to hit when cornering aggressively.

[Helvet]

Not to join a hyperpro argument (I've voiced my feelings before) but to clarify....

I don't corner that aggressively with my brakes on. I have video which can demonstrate that my forks are not fully compressed in corners, and I have Racetech 1.06 springs. Centrifugal forces will compress the springs a wee bit, but not enough to bottom them out.

And my Ohlins shock is raised 6mm over stock.

Dropping your trees on the forks WILL lower the bike enough to hit when cornering aggressively.

I am sorry Joe, but maybe it does with Racetech springs and not with the Hyperpro? I don't have this problem anymore....

The force on the springs when cornering is quite big, and when you hit a bump even more..... It will not bottom out (almost never), but like I said earlier dropping the front a bit neutralizes the longer springs. Therefore I think we are both right....

[Guest rockmeupto125]

:devilnangel: :D/

[Redbird]

I agree with Redbird on the forks, unless the springs coil bind at full compression, the travel remains the same no matter what you stuff in there.

Yes and no.....

All suspension has a certain travellenght, both in positive and negative direction. With longer springs you make the negative travel shorter, and the positive longer......

You're splitting hairs. Front suspension travel on the XX is 4.3" (109mm), no spring can change that, period. What your talking about is sag- where in the suspension travel you are when riding or cornering.

Everyone (except maybe Hyperpro) agrees you want to be in the midrange of the total suspension travel when leaned over in a corner, that's why you set rider sag at 1/4-1/3 of total suspension travel. Depending on how aggressively you corner centrifugal force will get you the rest of the way to the sweet spot. All you need to do is explain to me how one spring can do this for riders from 180 to 300lbs. Fully progressive or not, that spring is going to compress considerably more with an extra 120lbs on it. That will change both steering geometry and where you are in the suspension travel, both pretty important factors.

[K9XX]

It works if you own stock in Hyperpro

Am I helping yet???

[XXTi]

It works if you own stock in Hyperpro

Or at least become a HyperPro dealer.

[Helvet]

It works if you own stock in Hyperpro

Or at least become a HyperPro dealer.

I was a fan long before I became a dealer.....

I tried most other springs, but I liked the Hyperpro the best by far......

Racetech is not available in Europe (at least I've never seen any...), so I can't tell if it's good or not.

Yes, I agree you should adjust static sag. Hyperpro Europe also adjusts for sag. I don't know how the USA importer thinks about this....

Why they don't compensate for heavier or lighter riders is because the springs used are lighter than the others in the first few inches of travel, and heavier than others in the last few inches. That way they have a very large area covered. Hyperpro has springs made in lots of types. For the Blackbird they only have one fitting spring. For some other bikes they have more, but 95% buys standard.

Personally I could agree with you that if you are an exceptional rider (in skills or weight) you might be out of place with these springs. But in those cases I would advice to go beyond springs, and buy complete shocks.

[arcticflipper]

Suspension sag??

Rates??

etc???

Slow down, I'm new to this stuff, trying really hard to follow but seems to be a little lost here..

1. I need to upgrade the fork Springs,

2. then I need to drop the front +- 1 inch

3. Then I need to look at a 6mm shimm on the rear shock - this would be to lift the rear +- 18mm

4. Need to set the rider sag..... How do I do this? (Front)

Please keep in mind I'm a MIDGET - 5.11 and only +- 70 KG's (154 pounds)

If you drop the front, do you not change the ride position, leaning more forward and placing more weight onto your hands?

I do understand that this will help with the cornereing speed and response of the bike, but keeping in mind my weight and newness to this class bike, will I need to drop the front that much?

I've, with the stock springs, dropped the front +- 4mm so far, and can say that the bike is feeling a lot more stable in corners, and during the corner. I do however still need to upgrade the rear to keep the stability out of the corner.

[Helvet]

If you take a standard BB, and measure the distance between the front fender and the fairing, write this down.

If you upgrade to Hyperpro and do the same measure, the gap (distance) will be greater. This is because the springs are longer.....

Therefore you should lower the front to get to the same (or perhaps a little less) distance.

Rider sag is how much the bike drops after you sit on the bike, compaired to not sitting on it. There is a value suggested for this, but without the papers I could not tell you this exactly. With a heavier rider you could worrie about this, but I don't think you need to......

With your size however, I would strongly suggest not raising the rear. This will make it harder for you to reach the ground when standing still....

The good thing is you can experiment a little. Just start by going step for step. Do write down all measurements or you could get lost.

Goodluck!

[Redbird]

If you take a standard BB, and measure the distance between the front fender and the fairing, write this down.

If you upgrade to Hyperpro and do the same measure, the gap (distance) will be greater. This is because the springs are longer.....

Therefore you should lower the front to get to the same (or perhaps a little less) distance.

Rider sag is how much the bike drops after you sit on the bike, compaired to not sitting on it. There is a value suggested for this, but without the papers I could not tell you this exactly. With a heavier rider you could worrie about this, but I don't think you need to......

With your size however, I would strongly suggest not raising the rear. This will make it harder for you to reach the ground when standing still....

Dude, maybe find those papers before you give any more advice. You seem to have the concept down in the most general way, but you're a bit off on some of the details. Advising anyone not to worry about sag is just plain, well, stupid. Sorry, but it's one of the most basic and important ajustments you can make to your suspension. Ignore it if you will, but you're not getting your money's worth out of anything you spend on springs if you just throw them in there and hope for the best, regardless of Hyperpro's sales pitch.

[JasonW]

I'm no suspension expert myself, but I'd have to agree with Tim here.

So, Helvet, you're saying that the HyperPro springs will magically set the correct sag for you no matter what weight you are, so you make up for ride height by dropping the forks in the trees?.....or are you saying that the correct sag isn't even important in suspension tuning? Does Hyperpro allow just anyone to sell their product without any knowledge of suspension whatsoever?

arcticflipper,

I wouldn't waste your money on a spring change. The stock spring rate is okay for your weight and you would benefit more from revalving or changing the oil weight and setting the sag correctly, IMO.

All of the compaints about the stock setup being undersprung are from much heavier riders than yourself.

[Helvet]

I told him, and I mean only him, not to worry about the sag. He is lightweight, and the standard setup for these springs in this bike only differs 5 kilos. This makes hardly any difference in sag.

If you dont believe me, just ad 5 liters of water to your buddyseat (that is exactly 5 kilos). See what this does to your sag......

[shovelstrokeed]

First and most important adjustment is spring rate and, as Jason stated, at 154 lbs you probably have more than enough spring in your front fork. Sag, or preload asjustment helps to fine tune the spring rate to the individual rider. Basically it is the difference between the unladen fork or the just the bike weight fork position and that with the rider aboard. A good starting point would be about a 20 mm difference between the bike only sag and rider aboard sag.

From there, changes in fork rake and trail due to rear shock shims, raising or lowering fork tubes in the triples can make subtle to dramatic changes in the way the bike steers or turns in and in the stability of the bike during transitions from heeled over to straight up. It can also, if taken too far, have a really bad effect on straight line stability. The Blackbird can certainly benefit from a little quicker steering, IMHO, but it is not really bad in that respect when you take its long wheelbase into account.

Damping can benefit from adjustment of fork oil weight as the bike does seem to have far too much compression damping on the front. You may also adjust the level of oil in the forks to get a bit of "air spring" effect which, in your case, probably is not needed.

[Helvet]

I'm no suspension expert myself, but I'd have to agree with Tim here.

So, Helvet, you're saying that the HyperPro springs will magically set the correct sag for you no matter what weight you are, so you make up for ride height by dropping the forks in the trees?.....or are you saying that the correct sag isn't even important in suspension tuning? Does Hyperpro allow just anyone to sell their product without any knowledge of suspension whatsoever?

arcticflipper,

I wouldn't waste your money on a spring change. The stock spring rate is okay for your weight and you would benefit more from revalving or changing the oil weight and setting the sag correctly, IMO.

All of the compaints about the stock setup being undersprung are from much heavier riders than yourself.

I disagree (and you should pay more attention when reading). I never said that rider weight doesn't make a difference. It does....

I did say that because of the construction of the spring the difference is a lot less than with non-progressive springs (and in this case the progressive springs sold out there are not progressive, but a double lineair spring). Static sag is not as important as they want you to believe. It's the dynamic movement you need to worry about, and this is dependant on cornering, speed and bumps. Yes, if you get the static sag all wrong, you have a problem....

But just try it on a Hyperpro bike.

If you place a rider that is twice as heavy on the buddyseat, the difference is not that big. Even the heavy rider will not bottom out the springs when riding (only on very big speedbumps).

I do agree with all of you that there is more to the story than I told, but just don't overdo it. We are not GP-riders, and most of us will never know what is possible and impossible with upgraded suspension.

About Hyperpro allowing just anyone to sell their product without any knowledge of suspension whatsoever: are you kidding me?

Or are you really trying to make a point I don't know ANYTHING about suspension? That is just about as stupid as Jessica Simpson......

Do you really think that? So everything I ever said about this subject was all false? I guess we can agree you are mistaken here....

The fact is that I don't know everything, I agree (and I never said so). But I do know enough to sell the product, and I know a lot more than most bikedealers....

Yes, in January when I start my business I will have another course in suspension. Don't worry.....

[Redbird]

Do you really think that? So everything I ever said about this subject was all false? I guess we can agree you are mistaken here....

The fact is that I don't know everything, I agree (and I never said so). But I do know enough to sell the product, and I know a lot more than most bikedealers....

Helvet, whether it's the language difference or lack of knowledge on your part I'm not sure, but some of the advice you've given in this thread is questionable. Knowing enough to sell a spring and knowing enough to advise someone on suspension setup are (apparently) two very different things. Further, my wife knows more than most dealers, but she isn't in here telling people not to worry about sag. Saying it makes no difference at his weight makes no sense either. You install new springs, you check the sag and ajust if needed, period. It's part of the process if you're going to bother replacing the springs.

Speaking of sag, it's not real clear you even know exactly what the term means. Your description of sag and how to measure it a few posts back was at best vague, at worst just plain incorrect. This may be a language issue again, but no one here has any way of knowing that. From where I'm sitting you seem like a guy who's happy with a product he's bought, read all their literature and decided to to start throwing around advice. I may be wrong, but that's what it seems like.

How many bikes have you personally set the sag on? What's the static sag on your bike right now, front and back? What's the rider sag? How much preload on your front springs to get that number? Spacer length, oil height? Tell us about your own setup other than "it's Hyperpro" and you love it.

I do agree with all of you that there is more to the story than I told, but just don't overdo it. We are not GP-riders, and most of us will never know what is possible and impossible with upgraded suspension.

If us mere mortals are incapable of perceiving the benifits of a spring upgrade, why bother buying springs at all? Strage talk from a guy that's going to be selling this stuff. Main point- if you're going to bother mucking about with your suspension, it's best to do it right, GP racer or not.

[Red J]

Tim,

I think if you just try a Hyperpro bike, you will understand.

J.

[arcticflipper]

Thanks guys, Tim sorry I did see the link on a previous page, just didn't register...

Me bad there.

[Pete in PA]

HyperPro wants me to put in their springs, the stock spacer and button it up. This will set the bike weight only front sag at 25mm.

When I sit on it with my 300lb (136kg) ass, It HAS to compress more then 5-10mm to reach ideal rider sag of 30mm. I may be surprised, but I think I'll wind up shiming the stock spacer.

Joe, I would LOVE to hear your input on HyperPro. If it was covered before it didn't come up in a search. Maybe it was lost in the last site dump?

[Helvet]

If us mere mortals are incapable of perceiving the benifits of a spring upgrade, why bother buying springs at all? Strage talk from a guy that's going to be selling this stuff. Main point- if you're going to bother mucking about with your suspension, it's best to do it right, GP racer or not.

I guess we really got a language barrier here....

This is not what I meant at all.... :? I believe almost any rider with benefit from spring upgrades. I just don't think most riders will benefit from adjusting the setup without any knowledge or help from an experienced mechanic.

I meant to tell him that just installing the springs the way any manufacturer prescribes will be more than enough for most riders. Only if you want the best results you should be able to do some finer tuning....

For the other points, you are partly right. I don't adjust preload or sag on bikes. I just watched Hyperpro do it a few times. I am not a mechanic, nor do I pretend to be one.....

[Red J]

I believe almost any rider with benefit from spring upgrades. I just don't think most riders will benefit from adjusting the setup without any knowledge or help from an experienced mechanic.

Basically, you advise to change a single component in the system, a critical one. Without adjusting the other components in the system. Other components that are directly affected by the first component's function.

"Buy this spring, and get a better handling bike without changes to any other components. No adjustment necessary. And don't ask any technical questions."

You'll do well in sales.

----

I really should refrain from getting into this, as others here have tried unsuccessfully to educate you, but it is foolish to change out a spring for another spring of a different rate in any system, without verification of the preload (sag). Just plain stupid. I'm not suggesting that users need to do this themselves, if they are unfamiliar with the process, perhaps they should educate themselves, or take the parts to a bike shop to have them fitted.

This nonsense of physics not applicable to Hyperpro is, well, nonsense.

[Redbird]

I just don't think most riders will benefit from adjusting the setup without any knowledge or help from an experienced mechanic.

Believe it or not, that's what some people come here looking for.

Only if you want the best results you should be able to do some finer tuning....

Hey, look at that, we agree. Why would you bother replacing your springs if you weren't looking for the best results?

I am not a mechanic, nor do I pretend to be one.....

Fooled me. You were telling people how to check sag earlier in this thread, something you now admit you've never done yourself. If you're not qualified to give mechanical advice, then don't :wink:

[rodantking]

Redbird,

I thank you for some opposing info. I know very little about suspension, but intend to learn it if it kills me. I know there is not a one fix for every rider, but I would love to hear were you have you suspension and your weight.

I have all most no miles on this bike. As soon as I bought the bike about 3 weeks ago, winter hit as as I brought it home. I did notice the harsh damping.

I apologize because I haven't even check sag yet (I have a friend coming over this weekend to run a tape), but I what to get a start on this over the winter. I know it's going to need more work when I find a road warm enough to lay it over in.

Thank all of you for your knowledge.

[arcticflipper]

Must aggree on the language barrier here, for any newbie or anyone for that mater that has never really gone into so much depth with regards to suspension and certain upgrades to bikes, this could become very confusing very quickly.

I've never had to look into shocks or suspension setups, and have always been happy with the stock setup. But now since I've started to explore the capabilities of the XX, and getting all the info from this forum I can see why there is a need to do certain upgrades and changes.

I can also understand why a lot of readers will look at the posts, and get the impression that you only need to do one thing, instead of looking further into this and researching the entire solution.

I think this is a great + for the forum, the guys out there can see that the people on here really have the knowledge, and can easily mistake a half solution for a complete one. Because the majority of people on here have the knowledge, they only need half a word to understand the solution.

While for newer members that's still a long way off.

But then it is still your duty to make sure that you understand what is talked about before you try to do anything!!!!

I think the best and most likely only solution to this would be to test both the products and then make the decision.

Unfortunately due to costs involved, it would be greatly appreciated if we can get some feedback from current members who has installed the HyperPro option, against a Linear or any other non stock option. With the right sag setup included for the test.

After all, even though the info received from the manufacturer might not be 100% complete, we still now know that you need to check and adjust the sag.

Thanks for all the info.