Guest rockmeupto125 Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Alright.....if you read in the Pub, you know my Ford is hormonal today. I can turn a wrench, but I prefer not to actually know any more about this lump than necessary......so feed me, please. 1987 Ford E150 with a fuel infected 302. In its normal state of distune, has just humped 2000 miles plus downhill to and uphill from Florida. Occasionally farts and belches when too much is requested of it, but is reliable to date. Ran per usual until I shut it off this morning at 0530. Attempts to start since are unsuccessfull. It has strong battery, and spins without difficulty and at length. Its never given a problem starting. It really sounds no different than any other day when attempting to start. So I assume a lack of fuel or spark rather than compression...there are no tattletale signs of loose schrapnel in le motour. Pull the air filter cover, give it a great 10 second blast of ether, and replace the cover. Keying the ignition yields one short fudda-fudda-fudda. Not the quick ignition and rapid rise of RPM before the ether burns off that you'd expect. Removing the doghouse and doing a spark check shows a fat healthy 2 inch spark from the boot to the plug. So I'll looking at probable fuel deliver at this point. Is anyone familiar with these motors, and could give me more than generic advice.....which I'm fairly good at myself. BTW, I have this 6 foot pry bar......... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JJP XX Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Hey Joe, I had a 302 Ford give similar symptoms that you are describing. In my case, it was the timing chain that got stretched so badly that it jump time and would not start. After installing new timing chain and gears, it started right up. Not sure of an easy way to check without disassembling front of the engine. Another thing to check, if fuel injected, see if the inertia switch needs to be reset. It is a push/pull switch that will go off in vehicle is hit. Hope this helps, :grin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demon Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 You might want to check the inertia switch. This shuts fuel off in case of an accident. Sometimes they will trip for no reason. It is on the passenger's side kick panel on the trucks, but I don't know about a van. Swap your fuel Pump relay with the one for the horn, should be the same, and try it. Can you hear your fuel pump? Take the schrader valve cap off with the key on and depress the needle inside for a second. You should have a good squirt of fuel come out if the pump is working. Keep us informed. I'll check back in with ya in a little while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Joe, CHeck the damn "hey, just letting you know you wrecked" switch first as stated above. Second... have Bull turn on the ignition while you're down, not under it, but listening to the fuel tank... If you hear the buzzz of the fuel pump for a few seconds, it's probably OK... if not... It's probably the fuel pump... If you need to get one more trip out of it, you can usually pound on the bottom of the tank and it'll work for one or 2 more starts... but I wouldn't just drive on it that way until it goes out again. (also... you will have a fuel pressure port on the fuel rail... turn the ignition on and press the Schrader valve there and see it the fuel is pressurized). Just My $.02... After these results, let us know what happened... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rockmeupto125 Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Because its a van, things are hard to reach. I've dug down to the fuel rail, and will yank the cap off and check for fuel pressure tomorrow. What JJP said worries me. I didn't know if it was gears only or a chain drive. As I said, it spins over quite well......almost too well. Which is what started the cam timing fears in the back of my mind. Of course, that's usually when they skip...when the motor is shut off. :sad: And 136,000 miles....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furbird Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 At that mileage, it shouldn't be the chain. I've owned 300,000+ mile Chevy's and never had one throw a chain. But that is a Chevy, not a Ford. My first impulse says fuel pump, and with the symptoms you describe and the things you mention you did to check out the truck SCREAMS fuel pump. If there's no fuel in the cylinders, then there's less stuff to compress, so the engine will turn over easier. You've got fire, and if the cam chain jumped timing, it would still fire off with fuel in it, just like the ether did. So it's got to be a fuel problem of some sort, most likely the pump. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matey_peeps Posted January 11, 2005 Share Posted January 11, 2005 Are the tires cupped? Har har just funnin' ya. I'll second what has been said about the fuel pump and tip-over switch. My girlfriend's sable crapped it's pump and it would work intermittently, I had to replace the whole sending unit as one of the wires had arced and was busily trying to turn the whole mess into a rolling fireball. If you yank the sending unit, look for signs of arcs and burned/melted plastic around the connectors. But that's a moot point cuz it sounds like it has jumped time to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demon Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 An engine will actually start and run if you jump time by maybe a tooth or two. If the timing chain has indeed broken, you would be very lucky not to have the valves come into contact with the pistons. I still think it's a fuel problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rockmeupto125 Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 It doesn't really start and run after blowing ether....just kinda fup-fup-fup's enough so that I know something was happening. I never knew where the fuel pump was on this. There's not one in each tank, is there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furbird Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 That age vehicle is probably either on the motor itself or it's on the frame rail somewhere. I don't think they started doing in-tank in domestics until the early to mid 90's, but don't quote me on that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Should be a pump in each tank, with a boost pump on the frame, IIRC. If neither tank works, and it's a fueling problem, try the switching valve. Bypass it if necessary, or check that the suspect fuel pump(s) are getting power. If the timing chain is gone (never seen one just skip, they usually just strip the teeth and quit on ya), pull the distributor cap. If the distributor isn't turning, you've found your problem. If it turns, check your timing with a light, and the spout removed. If it's in time (or close), then the cam timing is fine. You've checked the obvious, like the plugs for fuel fouling, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demon Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 North's got a good point about the distributor cap and rotor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 North's got a good point about the distributor cap and rotor. Well, except for the fact if you have spark, the distributor has to be turning... :oops: If you have fuel & spark, Joe, check the timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rockmeupto125 Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 If you have fuel & spark, Joe, check the timing. Yah, that's pretty obvious. Fuel is easier to check, so that gets done first. A pump in each tank AND a booster pump? Holy..........but it is made in Canada, so you should know....and that's why I'm here. :grin: But it doesn't really fire well when I feed it ether. Seems that if it was just a lack of fuel delivery due to a bad pump or switching valve that it would catch and rev right up as it burned the ether...not just make a couple louder noises and speed up just enough to let go of the starter, then stop. It has strong regular spark, like it should...I just don't know if its at the right time. I've known engines to jump one or two teeth on the cam timing (chain driven). This engine runs the distributor off the cam, right? So if the ignition timing is retarded, the cam has slipped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demon Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 Yep, If the timing is retarded, or for that matter advanced but not likely, your timing chain could have jumped a couple teeth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superblkbrdxx Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 have you hooked up a fuel pressure gauge? ive seen a little fuel filter hiding by the pull pump on frame rail cause probs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERBXX Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 On my 91 5.0 , the thottle position sensor went causing the computer to think the throttle was wide open, which turns off the injectors. I use an 12 volt lLED soldered to two sewing needles to back probe the injector plugs to see if they are firing if that helps....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickrad Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 I had a truck that did the exact same thing and it was a clogged fuel filter, but I suppose you already checked (or don't have one) that so I have no other words of wisdom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardCranium Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 My fuel pump died around 125k on my Ford IIRC. It was in the tank. Not fun to replace. You should be able to easily eliminate that though since the pumps are noisy. You will be able to hear them when you turn the key on if they are working. I doubt both pumps went south at the same time though. That is if you have a dual/triple pump setup. You might poke around on these sites for more info. http://www.ford-trucks.com http://www.f150online.com http://fordtruckworld.tenmagazines.com/forums/ http://www.superford.org/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Canada0937 Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 If you were in Fort McMurray, Alberta, Canada today I'd tell you the answer was easy...the temperature. It's -40 degrees Celsius today. For you Americans that's -40 Fahrenheit as well. The only number on the 2 scales that are the same! No riding today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrdxx Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 I had a fuel pressure regulator fail on a Bronco years ago, though the failure mode was to fail to regulate the fuel at all, causing the cylinders to hydraulic lock. If a regulator could fail in a way that would not let any flow at all past the regulator, that might be a possibility. Good luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AQUAMAX Posted January 12, 2005 Share Posted January 12, 2005 I can't believe nobody as said SELL IT yet...you guys are slipping. :???: :grin: Have you had a chance to check fuel pressure yet? Some parts stores will rent pressure gauges. If I recall, the cam gear has nylon teeth & after say...129,999.9 miles or so, they become brittle & can shear off, causing the chain to slip a few teeth. If you pull #1 spark plug out & crank it around to top dead center (put finger over plug hole), look at your timing marks...it should be really close to zero, then pop your distributor cap off & see if the rotor is pointing toward #1 plug wire. If there's practically no compression when cranking (finger over plug hole), that's a good indicator that the chain has slipped. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demon Posted January 13, 2005 Share Posted January 13, 2005 Found anything yet Joe? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rockmeupto125 Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 Well.......good news, and a little bad news. Collected Bull and went out to do some diagnostics yesterday. He sticks the key in the ignition and it fires right up. Been driving it since....feels no different than before. Good news.....it runs. Bad news.....Can't diagnose something that's working at baseline. So if it happens again, I'm no smarter (except that I'd know its not the cam timing). Although it runs, I've fixed nothing, and therefore can expect that the same will reoccur.....with good odds that it won't be anywhere near as convenient as it was this time. Thanks for everyone's input on this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted January 14, 2005 Share Posted January 14, 2005 You DO have fire insurance, right? :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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