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superhawk996

Oil change/shifting experience.

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My '97 had Mobil1 15-50 with about 2k miles when I got it.  Shifting was a bit clunky and I could never get neutral from first, it would jump to 2nd, and getting from 2nd to neutral was possible but quite difficult.  I've read that the early 9 plate clutches are a bit picky about oil so I decided to try a change.  After some reading about clutch action with different oils on different bikes I decided to try Motul 300V 10-40, just shy of $60 for a 4 liter jug on Amazon.  When I fired it up getting neutral was just as bad, but right away the shifting smoothed out, I wasn't expecting that.  After a short ride finding neutral became a little bit better, I'm hoping that some soak time and riding will make it keep improving.

 

The shifting smoothness is pretty shocking.  I almost always synchronize downshifts on every bike otherwise they'll clunk pretty badly, I tried no synchro downshifts and it was more of a click instead of a clunk.  This was just a test after seeing how much normal up and down shifting had improved.  The oil is bright green and has a sweet smell with maybe a hint of banana, kinda cool.  

 

The performance improvement is unbelievable.  Cruising 6th gear at 4,000RPM it gained 3.7MPH with the new oil!

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My 69k mile '97 bird shifts and finds neutral just fine.  I'm currently using Lubrimoly in it, but have put whatever quality 10w-40 oil is on sale in it every 3k miles.  IMHO your clutch might need a rebuild.  Alternatively, check your hydraulic clutch actuation system - it might not be functioning correctly.

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2 hours ago, Chewtoy said:

My 69k mile '97 bird shifts and finds neutral just fine.  I'm currently using Lubrimoly in it, but have put whatever quality 10w-40 oil is on sale in it every 3k miles.  IMHO your clutch might need a rebuild.  Alternatively, check your hydraulic clutch actuation system - it might not be functioning correctly.

It doesn't have the hydraulic system, it has some kind of 'custom' cable clutch system.  It seems to actuate properly from what I can tell, but I don't know what the normal throw is to know if mine is short stroking.  What's odd is that with the engine off, in gear, and the clutch pulled I can turn the back tire by hand with what seems like reasonable resistance so I don't think there's a warped plate or short stroke issue.  It seems like there's some kind of dynamic thing going on with the clutch, or maybe the trans just has some strange problem making it hard to get neutral, but I don't know if that's possible.

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Like ChewToy, my 97 also doesn't have any issue finding N with anything from car dino to Mobil 1.  The M 1 does feel a little bit better in the shifting dept and for $25 for 5 qt, it is good enough for me.  With that said, your high $ oil must be some good stuff. 

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It's supposedly super special great oil, but normally I wouldn't spend that kinda $.  I did it as a last attempt before deciding that there is definitely something up with the clutch that needs investigating.  The shifting smoothness compared to the M1 15-50 makes it worth the $, but if my clutch does have an issue it might shift as well with the cheaper oil once that's cured.

 

If any of you would shoot a pic of your clutch through the oil filler hole it might help me ID what's in there without taking it apart, mine may have an aftermarket clutch.  Also, if you have a way to measure the stroke of the clutch while you're there that could be quite helpful.

 

One of my previous bikes, maybe my first '97BB, had a noticeable improvement with bike spec 10-40 (I think it was Castrol synthetic) compared to Rotella 15-40.

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I "recycled" Motul 5w30 300v from track bike after one weekend. The amount of noise from top end was too much for my comfort. Yamaha recommends 10-15w/40-50.

The oil went to VFR- bingo, superb shifting and clutch action. Honda recommends 10w/30.

The bike went on that oil to Alaska and back or around 8 k miles no problem.   

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Is 300V the oil you said has shown HP increases on dyno tests?  I think it was, but can't remember for sure.

 

I'd expect a track bike to get the oil pretty damn hot, running a 5-30 seems like a dangerous experiment even with spectacular oil.  I considered the 5-30 or 10-30 Motul since I don't run the Bird hard, but then decided to just stick with 10-40 which I think is the recommended weight for the Bird.  If the Motul doesn't cure my clutch/shifting issue after some ride time I think it's safe to say that it has a problem.

 

A thought just hit me, I wonder if maybe the trans has race cut/under cut dogs and if that could be what's making it hard to get neutral?  I've never knowingly ridden a bike with a race cut to know what it's like, but logic would say that the cut would make the gears harder to disengage with any amount of force being put on the trans, and a wet clutch always puts some amount of force on it.

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Dude, before you go  farther with your infinite wisdom. There are, and people use, 0w-20 race oils for superbikes.

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6 hours ago, tomek said:

There are, and people use, 0w-20 race oils for superbikes.

In road course track racing conditions or drag racing?

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2 hours ago, blackhawkxx said:

IMG_20200502_194319122.thumb.jpg.24fe1b96aaa06aab3594b569df0f9336.jpgIMG_20200502_194430148.thumb.jpg.8f157dcf638deacdcec7b1c3f6a76b30.jpg

Thank you.  Would you take a shot at about the angle of the first one but with the clutch lever depressed?  That should give me a good reference for how far the stock system moves it.

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20 minutes ago, superhawk996 said:

In road course track racing conditions or drag racing?

Road course race track. Oil temps are non issue, huge oil cooler. No noisy top end with this 5w/30

 

https://www.maximausa.com/product/530rr/ 

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Which 0-20 can also do that?  And is there an advantage to running something so light vs. something a little heavier, like the 5-30, that can handle more heat?

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2 hours ago, superhawk996 said:

Which 0-20 can also do that?  And is there an advantage to running something so light vs. something a little heavier, like the 5-30, that can handle more heat?

Horse power but....

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9 hours ago, superhawk996 said:

Which 0-20 can also do that?  And is there an advantage to running something so light vs. something a little heavier, like the 5-30, that can handle more heat?

I don`t see this being related to heat handling, if anything, thinner oil flows better and should be able to carry away more heat from the engine. 

Many major brands have 0w20 race oils, not sure I would wanna use it long term in my bike. Race engines of teams with enough $ get refreshed every 1000-2000 miles or whatever. They can trade increased rebuild intervals for couple hp.

 

https://www.joesracing.com/product/maxima-rs-full-synthetic-oil-0w-20/

 

 

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6 hours ago, blackhawkxx said:

Horse power but....

Yea, lighter oil can free up some power, but the flipside (in my mind) is having to keep it cool which means more weight and wind drag from a bigger cooler.  I can't imagine a 0-20 in road racing conditions, but even a 5-30 seems impossible and he apparently runs it.  Hhhhmmmm, but also smoked a motor so.. ?

 

Tomek, please understand that I'm not challenging you, I'm truly curious about this.  Try to set aside any BS from past conversations and not interpret my doubts or questions as implying anything, it's purely curiosity and you have more first hand experience & knowledge with this stuff than I'll ever have.

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17 minutes ago, tomek said:

 thinner oil flows better and should be able to carry away more heat from the engine

That is true, but "everyone" who road races cars talks about having to run heavier weight oils.  I assume it should translate to bikes.  The part about being able to afford to rebuild them frequently makes sense, they are probably giving up some longevity for a few 'free' horses.  So I guess the long answer would be that the light oil will work well enough to not be instant death, but the engine will suffer.  Do you think light oils might have lead to an early death on your R1?  Speaking of which; I lost track on that motor.  Did you rebuild it?  If so; any power mods done in the process?

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That was covered in detail, there is some progress in your case, but you are still largely immune to facts. 

 

Search archives.

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16 hours ago, blackhawkxx said:

IMG_20200502_194319122.thumb.jpg.24fe1b96aaa06aab3594b569df0f9336.jpgIMG_20200502_194430148.thumb.jpg.8f157dcf638deacdcec7b1c3f6a76b30.jpg

 

Kewl - never thought to look at those like that.

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23 hours ago, superhawk996 said:

Thank you.  Would you take a shot at about the angle of the first one but with the clutch lever depressed?  That should give me a good reference for how far the stock system moves it.

I found it hard to hold my larger phone and the lever plus click the photo.IMG_20200503_221732047.thumb.jpg.3d5723240412bb15b86866aec12a2420.jpg

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On 05/02/2020 at 7:39 AM, superhawk996 said:

It's supposedly super special great oil, but normally I wouldn't spend that kinda $.  I did it as a last attempt before deciding that there is definitely something up with the clutch that needs investigating.  The shifting smoothness compared to the M1 15-50 makes it worth the $, but if my clutch does have an issue it might shift as well with the cheaper oil once that's cured.

 

If any of you would shoot a pic of your clutch through the oil filler hole it might help me ID what's in there without taking it apart, mine may have an aftermarket clutch.  Also, if you have a way to measure the stroke of the clutch while you're there that could be quite helpful.

 

One of my previous bikes, maybe my first '97BB, had a noticeable improvement with bike spec 10-40 (I think it was Castrol synthetic) compared to Rotella 15-40.

 

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I measured .070" total pressure plate travel.

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IMG_20200503_212805047.jpg

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15 hours ago, superhawk996 said:

Do you think light oils might have lead to an early death on your R1?  Speaking of which; I lost track on that motor.  Did you rebuild it?  If so; any power mods done in the process?

 

I'm young and impressionable. If someone doesn't disprove this, I might try it.

 

 

....this one?

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3 hours ago, joblock said:

IMG_20200503_212805047.jpg

That kinda looks like a dial indicator, but they only measure linear movement in line with the plunger; what is that thing called?

 

Today I played with the adjustments and might have figured out the solution.  The mysterious mechanical clutch actuator is kinda odd and it appears that I just need to make some adjustments/tweaks.  The cable is too long to get a proper adjustment without having the adjusters all the way out to where they're falling off the threads, but at that point I was able to get a good release and find neutral.

 

I'll take some measurements using your guy's measurement & photo to confirm, then I'll probably have to have a cable made to the right length.  Thank you joblock and blackhawk.

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