poida Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 after some advice on the best way to go from here.was removing the old waterpump today so i could fit the new one but one of the bolts holding it in has snapped.there is still a little bit of the bolt sticking out so would anyone know the best way to proceed from here before i wreck what bit of bolt is left to grab.have sprayed it with a releasing spray and left it at that for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 If there's enough sticking out to get some vise-grips on it do that. I use small ones that have serrated tips, you don't wanna use smooth jaws on something that small. Clean up the release spray and any oil to avoid a fire, rarely happens but better to be safe, heat it with a torch and try. If there's not enough to grab, use a dremel and make a slot in it for a screwdriver to fit. If you cut into the aluminum a little don't sweat it, you'll probably only get one chance so make sure the slot is deep enough to get a good bite onto it. Heat it up and if you have an impact screwdriver try that, if not a regular screwdriver. Lightly tapping the sides with a light hammer while twisting with pliers or screwdriver can help greatly. Use a very light hammer, you want to shock it but not damage it and a light hammer swung faster will usually do a better job than a heavy one swung slower. If you aren't in a hurry, letting the release spray work at it, assuming it's something useful, can help. What is the release spray you're using? Warm it up, spray, tap the sides, let cool a couple hours, and repeat. The heating/cooling can help draw the spray in, tapping it helps break the bond and remove corrosion allowing the spray to penetrate better. I'm a big fan of Kroil if you have it available, or make a mixture of ATF and acetone, it shows promise of being better than most penetrants on the market. If you can slip a small piece of hose onto the piece sticking out you can make a reservoir for the oil to sit in and soak onto the bolt, but this won't replace heating and tapping to help get that oil in there. If it has to be drilled out; grind it flat, put the pump on, use a transfer punch to get a centered starting point. I'm just waking up so some better ideas may come along. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poida Posted October 18, 2016 Author Share Posted October 18, 2016 (edited) thanks superhawk.i used reducteur penetrating oil .i need to buy new bolts to replace the old ones but there are none available in australia so they will need to be ordered from japan.that will give me 2 or 3 weeks to get the broken bit out.was thinking of trying loctite freeze and release on the bolt.a friend suggested using a hot air gun on the engine casing leaving the bolt cold another suggested welding an 8mm nut onto the bolt,although that sounds a bit extreme at this stage.i know the engines get hot when running but do you know if there is anything that could be damaged by applying heat to just a small area of the casing?forgot to add,there is about 3 to 4mm of bolt sticking out. Edited October 18, 2016 by poida Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TOXXIC Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Sure got lucky having that much of the bolt shaft sticking out! I am betting vice grips will provide the the right extraction tool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXitanium Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Do you have a welder? I've heard, but never had the need YET, that you can take one of those high frequency engraving tools and back it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXitanium Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 https://www.ar15.com/archive/topic.html?b=6&f=2&t=273968 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon haney Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 (edited) Soak it for a couple days with the 50/50 mix of ATF and Acetone. Then drill the center and use a small "easy out" extractor tool. Heating the cases while applying force to the bolt is a good idea, but be careful, if using a flame. Four mm is not enough, in my opinion, to get a good hold with vice grips, unless the penetrating oil is some kind of miracle stuff. Edited October 18, 2016 by jon haney Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 Heat or the freeze stuff does about the same thing, you can alternate or try both together, hot on the case cold on the screw. It would take quite a bit of heat to be any problem and since it's a small protruding part a flame right on it will heat it quickly, then the heat will soak into the surrounding area, but you don't need to heat the whole block just that little piece. Getting it super hot could burn the penetrating oil and make it sticky so don't go crazy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXitanium Posted October 18, 2016 Share Posted October 18, 2016 I was also recalling using a left hand drill bit to drill it out. If it loosens up you effectively have an easy out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poida Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 thanks for all the advice.will try the freeze spray on the bolt and heat on the casing for a few days and see if that free's it up.will start with vice grips or small stillsons and try not to shear off the bit protruding. spent a few hours googling last night and found out about left hand drill bits,only problem is finding them here in australia and a mate has a small easy out kit at work he has offered to lend me.i have a mig welder so welding a nut on wouldnt be a problem just not sure if i want to go down that path just yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 The left hand bits are great for removing screws that sheared in use or sometimes ones that broke from being over tightened, one that broke due to corrosion sticking it is extrememely unlikely to spin it's way out. If it was gonna come out that easily a pair of pliers could pull it out instead of drilling. If you're gonna drill it make sure it's drilled dead center and straight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poida Posted October 19, 2016 Author Share Posted October 19, 2016 drilling and easyout would be as a last resort when i have nothing left of the bolt sticking out.would prefer to use the gentlest options first like heating/cooling to try and free it up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 Absolutely. Those options are the least likely to lead to a problem. In fact, I think the welding of a nut is less likely to be a problem than drilling unless you have a way of drilling it perfectly. Even if welding failed you can still drill, but not the other way around. Please report once you have success and what it took. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redxxrdr Posted October 19, 2016 Share Posted October 19, 2016 We are blessed in the States that we can buy left hand bits, with screw extractor kits at many bolt and tool stores. I frequent a site named " The Samba". It deals with restoring old VW. A trick used a lot to remove very old frozen hardware is to weld a bolt to the broken one. The heat of welding loosens the rust and corrosion. I know I have seen posts saying that they did this with a MIG. But I have always worried that welding current through the stuck bolt might weld the broken bolt in place. I plan to use a torch when I start fixing my pickup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted October 20, 2016 Share Posted October 20, 2016 10 hours ago, redxxrdr said: We are blessed in the States that we can buy left hand bits, with screw extractor kits at many bolt and tool stores. I frequent a site named " The Samba". It deals with restoring old VW. A trick used a lot to remove very old frozen hardware is to weld a bolt to the broken one. The heat of welding loosens the rust and corrosion. I know I have seen posts saying that they did this with a MIG. But I have always worried that welding current through the stuck bolt might weld the broken bolt in place. I plan to use a torch when I start fixing my pickup. The current concern is valid, but haven't seen it happen. You could attach the ground clamp to the nut and eliminate the potential issue. Torch welding will transfer more heat to the surrounding area, something to consider. So now that you mentioned Samba, I have a bunch of VW stuff to sell so let me know if there's anything you're looking for. I got way into it then got out entirely leaving a ton of stuff in the wake from basic parts to race parts and machining tools. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poida Posted October 27, 2016 Author Share Posted October 27, 2016 update.finally managed to get it out.welding a nut on didnt work as it was difficult to get good penetration with a weld. so i upped the amps slightly on the welder and welded directly on to the bit that remained sticking out.slowly built up the amount of weld till there was enough to get a good grip on it with small stilsons and was able to initially get it to turn clockwise a bit.then spent the next few hours slowly turning it in and out with doses of penetrant till it came out.there was some thread stuck to the end of the bolt but hopefully it hasn,t damaged the thread enough that i cant get a new bolt to do up once they arrive. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon haney Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 13 hours ago, poida said: update.finally managed to get it out.welding a nut on didnt work as it was difficult to get good penetration with a weld. so i upped the amps slightly on the welder and welded directly on to the bit that remained sticking out.slowly built up the amount of weld till there was enough to get a good grip on it with small stilsons and was able to initially get it to turn clockwise a bit.then spent the next few hours slowly turning it in and out with doses of penetrant till it came out.there was some thread stuck to the end of the bolt but hopefully it hasn,t damaged the thread enough that i cant get a new bolt to do up once they arrive. Make sure you chase the hole with the proper metric tap, or you may be breaking another bolt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted October 27, 2016 Share Posted October 27, 2016 Or better yet a thread chaser. If the threads are buggered up and you're unsure about them use a stud instead of a bolt to get deeper in where there's good threads. If it's real bad you could try tapping it to 1/4" since it's just a little bigger, if that fails you'll have to go with a helicoil type repair or epoxy a stud in. Getting the bolt out was the critical part, it's downhill from here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmike Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 Put some heavy grease in the vertical grooves on the tap/thread chaser; that'll pick up any chips/flash/etc. that may result. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon haney Posted October 28, 2016 Share Posted October 28, 2016 8 minutes ago, ironmike said: Put some heavy grease in the vertical grooves on the tap/thread chaser; that'll pick up any chips/flash/etc. that may result. A blow gun works good, too for removing chips. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 On 10/28/2016 at 10:10 AM, jon haney said: A blow gun works good, too for removing chips. :-) Yup, and grease will hold the chips making them harder to blow free. I only use grease when chasing spark plug threads or something else where having them fall free could be a problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poida Posted October 31, 2016 Author Share Posted October 31, 2016 i threaded the other bolt that didnt snap into it while using plenty of penetrant.just worked it in and out slowly going deeper.threads seemed to be holding ok.ultimate test will be when i tighten them up once the pump is in.had a call today that my replacement bolts are in so will pick them up in the morning and fit the pump.should i coat the new bolts in anything like brake caliper pin grease? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jon haney Posted October 31, 2016 Share Posted October 31, 2016 10 hours ago, poida said: i threaded the other bolt that didnt snap into it while using plenty of penetrant.just worked it in and out slowly going deeper.threads seemed to be holding ok.ultimate test will be when i tighten them up once the pump is in.had a call today that my replacement bolts are in so will pick them up in the morning and fit the pump.should i coat the new bolts in anything like brake caliper pin grease? Anything that will slow down electrolysis would be good. Anti-seize might be your best bet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
superhawk996 Posted November 1, 2016 Share Posted November 1, 2016 I'll second the anti seize. Or at least some oil or grease. The torque value will change compared to dry so keep to the low side of the torque spec when you assemble and don't get any lube between the screw head and pump as that'll change things even more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
poida Posted November 2, 2016 Author Share Posted November 2, 2016 i ended up using permatex aluminium anti seize on the bolts.i read that when using anti seize on bolts that you need to lower the recommended torque so just did them up by feel.with the pump being held in place by only 2 bolts i'm guessing that there is not a lot of stress on it.hopefully i get another near 300 000 klms out of it before it needs doing again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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