Steering Head Bearing Help Please

[ActionStarCBRxx]

Greetings! I am humbly requesting help with my steering head/bearing replacement.

I have a 1997 Blackbird. Recently about four/five months ago, I pulled the forks and replaced the springs and changed out the fork oil to a 5 weight oil. While I had the forks off, I pulled the steering/head bearings and replaced them with the All Balls roller bearings. When I installed the new bearings, I used the old bearing and tapped on that to push the new bearings in placed. I put everything back together using the torque supplied by the book (I don’t recall the torque off the top of my head now). It worked beautifully for a few weeks, until I ran over a speed bump in the parking lot. (the speed bumps are used in our work lot to slow traffic) After that, I noticed that if I applied the brakes real hard, or went over another speed bump while braking that the front end would feel like it was shifting forward. It was a subtle movement… nothing dramatic… just a subtle shift forward.

My thought at the time was that the bearings shifted a little bit and I just need to re-tighten them again. So I did exactly that, I pulled the bars, the center clamp, undid the big nut and re-tightened it again, then put everything back together. Same thing… it held for a week or two, then I noticed it going over a speed bump again at work while braking hard, that the front end was shifting forward a little. Other than the shifting forward under hard brake, the bike would steer correctly, and lay down easily in the corners.

This time I thought maybe I didn’t tighten it enough, as the last time I did it by feel, and not by the “book” so I took everything back off again, backed the nut off, then tightened it again. I used the right torque settings this time on the nut. I tightened the nut on the trip clamp before I tightened the fork clamps. I know I over tightened the bolt on the triple clamp… but I wanted to see what would happen. .. I was hoping that it would settle down in a week or so, and it would be a perfect fit. But alas… its doing it again when I hard brake or brake over the speed bumps, and now its too tight to turn correctly. When you let go of the bars, it wants to veer a little to the side.

Does anyone have any suggestions? Did I toast the bearings putting them in and I need to replace them again? Is there anyone if the DFW area that I could take the bike to verify what’s going on?

Any help would be much appreciated!

Thanks!

Kelly

[Skull]

You probably either damaged them on install or didn't torque them properly and damaged them on the speedbump. Once damaged, though, anything else you do is pointless. Get a new set and try again, following the directions this time.

[mikesail]

Sounds to me like the bearing cup was not installed properly. I suspect it is not centered, and has moved when you hit a good bump. My bet is that the bearing is probably still fine, but you will need to take it all apart and correct the installation.

[cbrxxquad]

You need to verify that the cup seated against the stop, inside. And that it is seated all the way around. Top and bottom. I suppect it is not. Load will move it, and with the angle of the bearings a little will feel like a lot.

And if it seated and you tightened the torque it will not turn, so backing it off is required.

When you taped the old ones out, there is a notch top and bottom to put the drift against. You should be able to see that the race is against the stop from the top with the stem out.

I come to DFW a lot, and there are a few in that area that are good enough mechanics to help. But, if you have done the deed, you should be able to determine that it seated correctally.

Now, for the bad news. I have seen the neck crack if done bad. not a a bird. But, if it is seated, and does it again something is giving.

Hope that makes sence, if it does not pm me for a number, I talk better than I type. If you understand hick.

[Redbird]

I read your whole post and saw no mention of the washer with the locking tabs that need to be bent into the castling on the nuts. You did do that, right? 'Cause if you didn't, exactly what you're describing would happen.

[Hobicus]

I read your whole post and saw no mention of the washer with the locking tabs that need to be bent into the castling on the nuts. You did do that, right? 'Cause if you didn't, exactly what you're describing would happen.

I was kind of wondering the same thing... that washer (cheap piece of metal, but important nonetheless) locks the nuts together and keeps them from loosening up.

[Skull]

Haha. He has loose nuts.

[Hobicus]

Haha. He has loose nuts.

So you like him then, huh?

[Skull]

Haha. He has loose nuts.

So you like him then, huh?

Only if he has loose morals.

[ActionStarCBRxx]

I read your whole post and saw no mention of the washer with the locking tabs that need to be bent into the castling on the nuts. You did do that, right? 'Cause if you didn't, exactly what you're describing would happen.

Yes, I did install the washer. It goes in-between the two nuts, to keep the top and bottom one from separating and keeping the nuts tight. *wondering what Hobbie and Skull are going to twist that last sentence into?*

[tomek]

Grease,You have greased those bearings,right ?

[ActionStarCBRxx]

Grease,You have greased those bearings,right ?

Yes... the good moly grease!

[Hobicus]

I read your whole post and saw no mention of the washer with the locking tabs that need to be bent into the castling on the nuts. You did do that, right? 'Cause if you didn't, exactly what you're describing would happen.

Yes, I did install the washer. It goes in-between the two nuts, to keep the top and bottom one from separating and keeping the nuts tight. *wondering what Hobbie and Skull are going to twist that last sentence into?*

Nothing like a nice set of tight nuts...

The two top nuts are supposed to lock together, keeping them from spinning loose. My guess is that you didn't tighten down the top nut quite enough, creating that lock.

What I'd do is tighten them up again, and mark the lower and upper nut with a Sharpie in a fixed spot on the steering head. (like... with the handlebars straight, and mark the center) IF they move, then you'll know they're working loose.

[Redbird]

I read your whole post and saw no mention of the washer with the locking tabs that need to be bent into the castling on the nuts. You did do that, right? 'Cause if you didn't, exactly what you're describing would happen.

Yes, I did install the washer. It goes in-between the two nuts, to keep the top and bottom one from separating and keeping the nuts tight. *wondering what Hobbie and Skull are going to twist that last sentence into?*

Nothing like a nice set of tight nuts...

The two top nuts are supposed to lock together, keeping them from spinning loose. My guess is that you didn't tighten down the top nut quite enough, creating that lock.

What I'd do is tighten them up again, and mark the lower and upper nut with a Sharpie in a fixed spot on the steering head. (like... with the handlebars straight, and mark the center) IF they move, then you'll know they're working loose.

If the locking tabs on the washer are folded into place properly there is no way the nuts will work loose. That's what that washer (and more specifically the tabs on it) is for.

Action, you've said you used the washer, but just to be clear, did you bend the tabs into place to lock the nuts?

[Hobicus]

If the locking tabs on the washer are folded into place properly there is no way the nuts will work loose. That's what that washer (and more specifically the tabs on it) is for.

Action, you've said you used the washer, but just to be clear, did you bend the tabs into place to lock the nuts?

There's nothing on the washer to stop both nuts from spinning together.. it doesn't have a tab that holds it in place on the steering stem. If the two nuts aren't jammed together creating a lock, I could see how they both could turn at the same time, even if the tabs were folded.

[Mekanix]

I noticed when I packed my bearings (original, not rollers, they still work fine) that there is exactly enough threads to tighen everything up with no more to overtighten. If you forgot a washer or spacer it would prevent you from getting the bearings tight enough to prevent the rocking you are describing. I repacked my bearings when my steering was doing exactly what you are describing and it went away and drives and steers fine.

As a side, if you could find a correct sized spacer to go behind the nut, you could, essentially, give more lock down force on the bearings before locking down the nut and reassembling. I would first double check everything and make sure nothing is out of whack, though.

[ActionStarCBRxx]

Thanks all for the input so far.

I finally got a chance to work on it last night.

I pulled everything off, I checked the double nut and the retaining washer with the tabs, and the tabs were still in tact, so that the top and bottom nut could not turn away from the top nut.

I noticed that my bearing/top race does not sit flush inside the steering head. Meaning that if you were to lay a piece of paper completely over the top and cover the steering head the bearing/race sit above that plane. So I thought I would tap the race down a little further. (Note I had the front wheel on the ground not up in the air) So after a little pounding on the top race I ended up jarring the bearing/top race out. Actually just poped it off the stem.

So now it looks like I am committed again to having to redo the whole thing again.

Does anyone see any reason why I couldn't take an engine hoist and use a chain and attach it to my engine cage to lift the front of the bike up in the air? I had an engine cage made with sliders. It connects to each side of the frame, with a U shaped bar that goes under the bike.

Thanks again!

[cbrxxquad]

I don't know if what your saying is just not getting into my head right, but something is just not right in what your describing.

Sounds like you have the bearings and races backwards, or upside down. The races for the bearings press into the frame. That is the outside piece. They should seat against a stop in the frame. The bottom bearing goes on the stem after you put the the seal on. Slide the stem in from underneath, and the top bearing goes in and th seal, then the nut, then the lock washer and the lock nut, then the tripple, then the tripple nut.

Or so, if this sound like you don't have the correct stack. Might want to hold off till I can get there.

http://fiche.ronayers.com/Index.cfm/Module...p/STEERING_STEM

I have used my engine hoist to hold the bike up many times, but I use a strap hook to both sides of the faring mounts by your knees. Mine is the 2000 frame and welded. The 2001 was the bolt on ones and they were fine too.

So yes, you could use the engine cage.

[Redbird]

There's nothing on the washer to stop both nuts from spinning together.. it doesn't have a tab that holds it in place on the steering stem. If the two nuts aren't jammed together creating a lock, I could see how they both could turn at the same time, even if the tabs were folded.

If the two bolts are even lightly torqued together, they will not move together. That's the entire idea behind the double nut system there. The tabbed washer is there to insure the top nut doesn't back off from the bottom, which would then allow both nuts to move around a bit. For the bolts to "move together" that washer would need to be pretty much rattling around between the nuts, which will never happen due to the tabs. I'm also going by his original post where he said he torqued everything to spec and this still happened. The simplest explanation, IMO, was forgetting the locking tabs. Once again a case of "BTDT", embarrassingly enough.

It appears this branch of the discussion is moot, anyway.

[Para045]

Does anyone see any reason why I couldn't take an engine hoist and use a chain and attach it to my engine cage to lift the front of the bike up in the air? I had an engine cage made with sliders. It connects to each side of the frame, with a U shaped bar that goes under the bike.

Thanks again!

When I did the tapered bearings on mine I just put it on the CS and lifted the front using some MX tie downs around the steering neck and some ratchet straps from the frame either side of the carbs and up to the roof rafters Worked fine

[Mekanix]

I used the center stand and put a jack with a wood block under the engine till the rear tire "just" touched at the back. It was pretty stable, but I wasn't whacking on anything. If you don't have a center stand installed but have one of them rear swingarm lifts, I don't see why an engine hoist wouldn't work. I'd still be inclined to have it sit on wood blocks, but that's just me.

[cbrxxquad]

maybe a little hard to see but, for info

[ActionStarCBRxx]

I don't know if what your saying is just not getting into my head right, but something is just not right in what your describing.

Sounds like you have the bearings and races backwards, or upside down. The races for the bearings press into the frame. That is the outside piece. They should seat against a stop in the frame. The bottom bearing goes on the stem after you put the the seal on. Slide the stem in from underneath, and the top bearing goes in and th seal, then the nut, then the lock washer and the lock nut, then the tripple, then the tripple nut.

Or so, if this sound like you don't have the correct stack. Might want to hold off till I can get there.

http://fiche.ronayers.com/Index.cfm/Module...p/STEERING_STEM

I have used my engine hoist to hold the bike up many times, but I use a strap hook to both sides of the faring mounts by your knees. Mine is the 2000 frame and welded. The 2001 was the bolt on ones and they were fine too.

So yes, you could use the engine cage.

I may not be using the right vocabulary... What I was calling a race the link to Ayers is calling it a "head pipe bearing" (Number 7). The the head pipe bearing (not roller bearing) (number7) is what I was tapping with a cylindrical tube and hammer to "press/tap" the pipe head bearing down onto the steering stem further. The tapping on the head pipe bearing pushed the roller bearing up out of where it was seated on the steering stem. I don't think I put the number 7 head pipe bearing in upside down, but it is possible. The roller bearings can only go one way right... skinny side down first and the wide end at the top, like a triangle pointing down.

So the head pipe bearing was sticking about a few cunt hairs about (1/32 to 1/16) above the steering head. Is that ok, since the dust seal is supposed to cover the number 7 head pipe bearing? I am wondering if I don't have the bottom dust seal and number 8 head pipe bearing (roller bearing) down all the way against the bottom of the lower steering stem.

I don't have a center stand. My blackbird has the full two brothers exhaust, so the center stand was removed. I thought about drilling holes in the floor and installing eye bolts but thats invasive to the garage. Last time when I took the forks off, I used a POS lift for cruisers, and cringed every time the bike remotely moved as it was not all that steady.

CbrxxQuad... that red bike you have is pure sex. If you ever sell it, can I have first dibs? Even with the bike tore apart, that red still caches my eyes!

[XXitanium]

I tried a search on the forum for head bearings... I found the Ron Ayers site clumsy.

Are these the correct part no? please? I decided that I'm half way there, so why not finish it.

http://www.ronayers.com/ProductDetails/N/103048/SKU/353267

TIA,

Bill