cbrxxquad Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Brent sent me his motor to find out what went wrong. He had some problems that would not get better. Last was that it was not turning over. It had been down on power and looked like the compression was low. It is a turbo bird and is way custom. Shipped to me and I picked it up tonight. Had some visible changes to the wrap that was on it and some visible damage. Oil filter was visible and scuffed and the shrink wrap was tore in places. One was the stator cover and looked like it might be damaged, but, was just the chrome peeling. Weighed the motor just to see what the weight was really. 175 max clean of fluids. Pulled the valve cover and the cams and measured the shims to record the location size. Some looked bad and one would not come out with a magnet. Going to have to replace many of them. Broke the head bolts and pulled the head. The head bolts were very tight. Not sure what the torque was but I had a really hard time breaking them. So not loose for sure. As soon as I got the head off it was easy to see the problem. #1 cylinder had water in it and the head gasket had burn marks between each of the cylinders. The top layer of the head gasket had separated from the middle layer. Looks like it had a little to much boost for it to survive. Looks like a stock one, but don't know. If the problem with it not turning over is the rust in the cylinder galling the piston, I will not know till I get the bottom end apart. And without turning the crank, going to be very hard to get the crank out. Going to soak the cylinder in penetrating oil over night. Was thinking the bearing was the problem, while hoping that it was not. Cranks and rods are expensive. So if I can get the piston to let go and it turns, we are going to be a lot better off. Since Brent wanted me to post a picture book discription thread of the rebuild on here, I am going to. I will post some pictures here but the link is in my photo-bucket for all of them. Should be a good reference for those who would like to or just want to know how it is done. Photobucket folder for all the pictures.......click here Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spicholy Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Very good of you Stan. It looks like there is a fair amount of oil in the #3 cylinder also. Blown rings? Leaking valve seal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 Very good of you Stan. It looks like there is a fair amount of oil in the #3 cylinder also. Blown rings? Leaking valve seal? Yes, looks like is/was real wet. But, I won't know till I get it the rest of the way down and look at the rings, but don't think the head/seals are bad. Will be able to tell when I pull the valves out.Guessing, for sure, about all of it till I see what I find. Going to put a link to the correct PB location in my #1 post so you all can go and see alll the pic's if you want. He will have a folder for all the work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BackStreet Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 What you have there is chrome plated scrap metal. For about $5000 you could turn it into a $1500 motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 What you have there is chrome plated scrap metal. For about $5000 you could turn it into a $1500 motor. I guess we will see, but, I don't think there is any reason to think that with what we have seen so far. Bad head gasket, maybe surface the head, Water and rust are not a problem. Cylinder is not scored yet! Fixable. Of course it is a 400 hp motor, so might need to be done ocasionally with a freshen up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANKSXXX Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 What bore is that motor? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redxxrdr Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Stan, I'm Stoopid, followed the link and got to a PB home page. What name did you save the pictures under? I hope to never tear my bike down, but appreciate those of you who post how. Just in case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 Has turbo pistons, don't know the compression, yet, and yes, since it got all the inbetween gaps, more than likely lost fuel ratio. I don't think that Brent built this, but was a sorted setup when he got it.. He should post up the history, but he has asked for help in the past. I will look for a link. I know we sudgested an afr, but I was thinking he has a dyno tuner setting it. Might be a intermit fuel starvation too. He is trying to get it back right. But, when it froze, he quit. I am figuring water leaked into the cylinder from the gasket, on compression and hydro locked, now. Could have pulled the plug and lubed the cylinder and would have turned, but the gasket was gone so at least that was going to have to be replaced. I will go through everything and make sure it is clean and proper. Stan, I'm Stoopid, followed the link and got to a PB home page. What name did you save the pictures under? I hope to never tear my bike down, but appreciate those of you who post how. Just in case. scroll down and you will see them, click on them and they will get big. What bore is that motor? Looks stock, have not measured it yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 The head bolt torque was really high. I saw some lube on the bolts but it broke like it was sealant. Not sure but something seemed wrong. Should have reverse torqued one but felt like 150 lbs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 I know I am preaching to the Decon here -- I just want to make sure that anyone who has a turbo and hasn't come forward with an issue yet knows this stuff.. They are REALLY low maintenance (like a stocker) when they are set up properly. If it has turbo pistons, they are probably JE and run 9ish:1 as their standard item on a stock bore. If EFR originally built it then it will be around 9.5:1 since he runs a thicker dome. Stock rods? Carillos? Stock length? Some people have done the Stotz method of 2mm shorter rods and his piston from JE and then you get 8.5:1 on a stock bore too.. At any rate, hope it gets sorted out.. I still have that Innovate AFR meter if anyone is interested. I'll probably throw it on eBay next week if no one jumps on it. It has the RPM adapter too which makes tuning easier when you can see RPM, TPS, RPM, and boost levels in a log instead of on a guage. If this is going to be what I hope and Brent is looking for both you guys will have to do your thing. All questions and answers, tips, encoraged, no matter how far the end of the scale. I want to do a turbo and others too. I plan on recording each detail to get down the required and advanced and optional. So if you will, Dean, bring it. You too Hank, and Brent, your going to have to drop em. Cause we want to see it. Should be fun. And informative. The afr, man that is a required setup. I have one on a stock motor with custom header. Hate to see that have to go to Ebay. No matter how much it is cheap compaired to this. Going to measure everthing to find out... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXTi Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Forrest (XX4me) has quite a bit of street turbo experience. I hope he chimes in on this thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brent Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 Glad to see my baby is in good hands a little about the bike, has a 61mm large frame turbo, 3 core air to air intercooler, je pistons, carillo rods, falcon crank, big head studs, lockup clutch.. i ran the bike at 10/20lbs boost with premium gas, made 400hp no problem. the problems started when i cracked 3rd gear and sent my bike to a shop to fix the transmission, the bike was never the same... after tearing through it and finding loose wires for the fuel pump. and a few boost leaks i thought i found my problem but turns out i was wrong it was only making 16lbs so i turned it up a little thinking the guy played with the boost controller still 16lbs on the way back home to check for leaks i got a real nasty squeek noise.. then on the way to a friends house the bike locked up on the highway Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redcam622 Posted January 17, 2009 Share Posted January 17, 2009 This was my bike before Brent bought it from me. It went many times over 200 mph and many miles under heavy boost....most likely detonation happened when the fuel pump lost voltage for a second or 2 due to loose wireing...it is carbed not FI. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted January 17, 2009 Author Share Posted January 17, 2009 This was my bike before Brent bought it from me. It went many times over 200 mph and many miles under heavy boost....most likely detonation happened when the fuel pump lost voltage for a second or 2 due to loose wireing...it is carbed not FI. I was going to see if you would post all that you know about this motor. I am going to go through the teardown and rebuild to make sure it is clean and preped. But, it is pretty modded, and if you know any pitfalls, part numbers, equal to the friken huge head bolt spec's, might make my job go better. Thanks for the info and post. This might be fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 Update. I am kind a anal about how I think you should tear down. I bag everything with tags. Ziplocks, felt tip pen. Boxed. Never let me down, yet, and makes for a easy rebuild. I forget shit and have to remember, harder as I get old, but, good habits, help. I have added a lot of pic's to the file, but some need to be here, to tell the story. http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh231/trurotor/Brents%20motor/DSC03636D.jpgimg] Yep, number three rod bearing stacked, and just pieces. The screen for the pump had some brassy lookng slivers and there is some trash in the pan. Not bad just need a rod and a crank. and if I can get the number one out without scratching the cylinder, and the rust is not bad,,,,Sorry, Brent but that was the pig squeeling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spicholy Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Stan, is that a crack in the tooth of the large left gear? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANKSXXX Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 Don't know how big your spare parts pile is, but I have a carbed parts motor from a wreck. Lower crankcase is broken from the impact with a curb but it supposedly only has 6500 miles on it. Lemme know if you have any interest...Hank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted January 18, 2009 Author Share Posted January 18, 2009 I will look real close Dean, but not noticed any so far. Sure looks like a crack in the picture, will see. And I think that Brent has everything but a crank so far. Redcam do you know if the crank has anything done to it, special? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brent Posted January 18, 2009 Share Posted January 18, 2009 has a dyna 2000 ignition system, we dont know what was done to the crank just that it was prepped by fallicon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brent Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 has a dyna 2000 ignition system, we dont know what was done to the crank just that it was prepped by fallicon Ahhh, so THAT'S who made the trigger for MSD. I often wondered about that.. The crank doesn't have the Falicon "Polished & Lightened" look so it was probably just balanced, journals chamferred & polished then sent back. Probably has the balancers removed too..or at least disengaged. (Best guess..) Brent: How is fuel managed? Stock ECU + PC3? If so, then there is no boost referenced compensation, so I'd picture a BEGI style FMU in there as well, which is fine for most street purposes. I wouldn't push it above 12 PSI, personally, simply because I have seen how erratic they can be after a little wear. Stan: How damaged/gouged are the crank journals? Honda has some pretty sizable bearings that may save a few dollars if it were just sent off for repair. If you're looking to make this setup bulletproof, now is the time to consider changes, btw. Fuel pump, injectors, and fuel controller would be high on my list.. Its carbed with a big fuel pump from a volvo, the computer is part of the dyna 2000 yes bgi fmu hopefully these pictures help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Been tied up today with church, so no progress, but the bearings were stacked, so the ticking noise was the bearing out. Nothing else. The squeal was the bearing tightening when it stacked. They were half gone, so there is a lot of metal somewhere. Going to cut the filter apart and unroll the element to see how much it caught. Going to worry about the bearings in the turbo. With the problems I had and getting to the solution, I found that all it takes is loss of pressure. Not any amount of time, for the bearing in number three to fail. It will tick but, it is done. On the second one it did not tick where you could hear it. But, I saw the oil light blink. And with a stethoscope could hear it under idle. Pulled it down and the bearing was to the copper, no more. still got the crank and rod, as per Elton. I am under the impression that pre oiling a tore down motor, is essential. I use a Cannon oil accumulator. It allows me to crank the engine, without ign, and store oil in it, and block with a valve. Then before I start open and pre oil. Excessive, I know, and more than not, likely, not necessary. But, the preoil without ign, is. One thing is that my tap is on the end with number three oil galley, the right side. I had a better choice on the other end as to fit. But, with the number three, having the problem I thought that feed from that side would be better. All this means is that the tick started at the same time that the oil was lost,or about as soon as you could guess. Another thing that is very important, per Elton. That the relief valve be replaced or shimmed to produce no relief of oil till 100 lbs. And the oil pump be able to produce that amount of pressure. I get that with a stock pump, but a elderly one that had been through the failure of the bearing did not. Could not see the few thousands that were added in clearance to the end play on the rotors. The little scars in the clearance between the rotors. Add up. Coating them would make for a better pump, with a Teflon, or such. The crank is pretty bad Dean, I will measure to see, but the exchange with Elton is 300 last I was told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JB4XX Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 I have a good crank I could pull from my 01 motor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 No crack in the gear and no aluminum on the pistons. The crank from Elton done by Falcon, has tighter clearances, for the oil problem, I am told. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANKSXXX Posted January 19, 2009 Share Posted January 19, 2009 Take a good look at the cylinder head, where the cams run. That's another area that doesn't like metal particles, if any got through. Hank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted January 19, 2009 Author Share Posted January 19, 2009 Take a good look at the cylinder head, where the cams run. That's another area that doesn't like metal particles, if any got through. Hank Yes had heard that, and looking at them, I see no scratches, but the covers look dull, and the head looks shiny. So some problems. The crank does not look as bad as I would have expected,but, have not checked the diameter yet. Neither does the rod, but they can't be correct. Will dial bore them and report. Now the filter, well the metal in in there, and the back side looks pretty clean. There was a small amount of metal in the pan, but not as bad as I would have expected. Filter did it's job, but the bypass let some through it seams. But, the cylinder is bad, and other than being way down in the cylinder where the pitting is, should be bored to remove the problem. That is scouring pad clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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