Racetech front suspension

[RXX]

Just got finished talking with John at CTR Suspension here in Knoxville. CTR is a Racetech Center and J travels around working for the AMA if I understand him correctly. He will be doing a complete rebuild of my forks with gold valves, springs, etc the middle of March. I figure $500 or so for a 10 year old bike works out to $50 a year. Maybe I will have a little more confidence in my cornering abilities, and maybe, just maybe I will stay within site of you guys' asses out west. Any suggestions on what else to do to front end while I am torn down?

[bartonmd]

Mileage dependant, I'd probably replace fork seals and slider bushings with new Honda parts... Mine were still in good shape at 42,000 miles when I replaced them while I was putting the Gold Valves in, but asside from oil changes once a year or so, I don't want to be getting into the forks much now that I've got them set up...

Mike

[beondwacko]

Don't forget to check the headset bearings while your in that area. You may also want to repaint or powdercoat the lower tubes. Enjoy the results with the forks! I'm a little jealous.

Keep this thread going or revive it when it's back together to give us your impression.

[jon haney]

Just got finished talking with John at CTR Suspension here in Knoxville. CTR is a Racetech Center and J travels around working for the AMA if I understand him correctly. He will be doing a complete rebuild of my forks with gold valves, springs, etc the middle of March. I figure $500 or so for a 10 year old bike works out to $50 a year. Maybe I will have a little more confidence in my cornering abilities, and maybe, just maybe I will stay within site of you guys' asses out west. Any suggestions on what else to do to front end while I am torn down?

I too went the Gold Valve route and am very pleased with the results. If you really want to "hang with the guys out west", a track school is the best way to improve your skills. Star Racing's school is about the same money as your fork rebuild. Some tracks have their own schools for less money, but I don't think you'll get as much out of them.

[JB4XX]

Just got finished talking with John at CTR Suspension here in Knoxville. CTR is a Racetech Center and J travels around working for the AMA if I understand him correctly. He will be doing a complete rebuild of my forks with gold valves, springs, etc the middle of March. I figure $500 or so for a 10 year old bike works out to $50 a year. Maybe I will have a little more confidence in my cornering abilities, and maybe, just maybe I will stay within site of you guys' asses out west. Any suggestions on what else to do to front end while I am torn down?

Phillip I have Racetechs valves and springs in my 97 along with new seals and oil.

Your welcome to give it a spin if you are up this way.

[bartonmd]

If you weigh closer to 200 than 300, you're welcome to give mine a spin... sprung and valved for 190# rider...

[OZDave]

I too went the Gold Valve route and am very pleased with the results.

+1

[Scated]

I'm considering this same fix. One of my buddies said to go with Ohlins Springs and Valves. Does Ohlins make those pieces for our bikes? Thanks.

[jcrich]

Jon at CTR does excellent work. He just refreshed my forks and Penske shock on the track bike. He then had me bring the bike down after assembly to set sag and everything else back up. There is not a nicer person that I have met in the motorcycle industry.

[haWHYnXX]

Tapered head bearings could be done while you're at it. Congrats on the rebuild.

[spoot]

RaceTech valves & springs here, too.

Very nice upgrade.

I had to replace a gasket on fork...everything else looked fine. 16k on the bike when it went in.

[Para045]

I'm considering this same fix. One of my buddies said to go with Ohlins Springs and Valves. Does Ohlins make those pieces for our bikes? Thanks.

I have a set of 04 forks that I bought from OzCrow (Crow of OzBB) and they have Ohlins valves in them

I will be fitting them soon with some 1.2kg/mm Sonic Springs and will give some feedback when they are done (also doing the AllBalls head bearings)

[HANKSXXX]

I had Gold Valve's in my 97 BB and switched to Penske Super Sport valves, both compression and rebound. I liked the overall feel much better with the Penske's. 1.0 KG springs with 5 wt fork oil set at 120mm. I shortened the fork travel by 1/2" to help the fender clear the intercooler. Also rotated the shock plates in the rear to lower the bike, while sliding the fork tubes up to 45mm, IIRC. I'm going to try one more thing with the Penske compression valves and it should be just about prefect. I have a Penske on order for the rear, which may or may not require some changes up front...Hank

[bartonmd]

I had Gold Valve's in my 97 BB and switched to Penske Super Sport valves, both compression and rebound. I liked the overall feel much better with the Penske's. 1.0 KG springs with 5 wt fork oil set at 120mm. I shortened the fork travel by 1/2" to help the fender clear the intercooler. Also rotated the shock plates in the rear to lower the bike, while sliding the fork tubes up to 45mm, IIRC. I'm going to try one more thing with the Penske compression valves and it should be just about prefect. I have a Penske on order for the rear, which may or may not require some changes up front...Hank

I wouldn't think the specific valves would make much of a difference, but rather, how they are shimmed... People get really good results from drilling out the stock valves and shimming them like aftermarket valves...

Mike

[HANKSXXX]

I wouldn't have thought so either, but back to back, the Penske's were an improvement over the Gold Valves and the Gold Valves an inprovement over stock. The Penske's design is a bit different than the Racetechs which could explain the difference in feel. The Racetechs have bigger passages for the oil to flow through than stock, which I'm pretty sure a drill could correct. My question would be how many times do you want to pull the front end to drill, change the shim stack, reinstall, test, etc. One cycle may show an improvement, but is it as good as it can be? Probably not, so do you try again and again till it's right for you? If you bypass the right spot, do you then return to the previous settings?

Dunno....Hank

[bartonmd]

Did you use the same shim stack, and just change valves? If you didn't, then it was probably just the shim stack being different... BTW, being that this bike's suspension is not adjustable, you'd have to keep changing the shim stack to find what you want with ANY aftermarket valve/shim setup... It sounds as if it just happened that you just liked the suggested Penske setup better than the suggested Race-Tech setup?

Mike

[HANKSXXX]

I was referring to drilling the stock valves and then trying to come up with a shim stack that works well. This is similar to what business's like Racetech do and charge for and for the most part hit a good set up, through selling hundreds of kits and getting feedback. When I had the Gold Valves, I tried the recommended C-36 stack and then a C-34 or 35...can't remember which. Then I went to the Penske's. The Penske looks entirely different than the Racetech as is the shim stack. I also used a Penske rebound valve setup, rather than restacked stockers. I think the difference here is due to a different approach to solve the same problem and Penske, in my opinion, has a better setup. My only gripe is on small, harsh bumps and if I get energetic, I'll pull it apart and try a little less compression damping. I am not going to do that till I get the Penske on the rear. I was waiting for a friend to custom build a triple adjustable shock and he (and I) finally realized (after a year) his workload wouldn't allow it, so he's getting me a Penske. Just what I need...more adjustments...LOL

[bartonmd]

I was referring to drilling the stock valves and then trying to come up with a shim stack that works well. This is similar to what business's like Racetech do and charge for and for the most part hit a good set up, through selling hundreds of kits and getting feedback. When I had the Gold Valves, I tried the recommended C-36 stack and then a C-34 or 35...can't remember which. Then I went to the Penske's. The Penske looks entirely different than the Racetech as is the shim stack. I also used a Penske rebound valve setup, rather than restacked stockers. I think the difference here is due to a different approach to solve the same problem and Penske, in my opinion, has a better setup. My only gripe is on small, harsh bumps and if I get energetic, I'll pull it apart and try a little less compression damping. I am not going to do that till I get the Penske on the rear. I was waiting for a friend to custom build a triple adjustable shock and he (and I) finally realized (after a year) his workload wouldn't allow it, so he's getting me a Penske. Just what I need...more adjustments...LOL

hmmm... I have both the compression and rebound Gold Valves... You get their aftermarket valve (no, there is no drilling to do unless, like us, you don't have adjustable suspension... then you have to drill a #52 (or somewhere around there) bleed hole in the side of one of the valves' ports) and a bunch of shims, as well as other misc. hardware... Repeat, the Gold Valve Rebound setup comes with its own valve, not reshimming the stocker.

FWIW, some like to go one setup stiffer than RaceTech recs., but since I'm in the middle to the light side of the 1.0 spring, the reccomended setup worked perfectly for me the first time, both on rebound and compression.

It sounds as if a lot of the difference you are feeling is the fact that you are using the Penske compression and rebound valves, but you were only using a RaceTech compression valve, and restacked stock valves for rebound, instaed of going full-boat with the racetech?

Mike

[Banshee]

I had mine done about 2 weeks ago. 2nd BB I've had done. The forks had the compression valves replaced & the stock rebounds reshimmed. For my weight the stock rebound is ok. Interestingly, it seems the Honda may have played with the design again & they did not need to drill a bled hole in the '07 fork rods. (They did in the '98/'99 ones). I also had the springs replaced with Racetech ones. MUCH nicer to ride. It was set up for my standard commuting etc, not for track & all those small harse bumps are a thing of the past!

I also had a '94 RR shock to replace the stock rear. Last time I had the stock overhauled with a Gold Valve with great success, this time I wanted easier adjustability for preload etc so I had the RR one done with the Gold Valves & reshimed & resprung to suit me. All up cost was ~$1200AUD for both ends. Rode the bike in in the morning, watched them strip the bits down & rebuild them & rode home in the afternoon. With a couple of test rides to get it set up properly before I left. Oh yes, they also built a 6mm extra length/travel into the rear, so I don't need a shim on the top.

[HANKSXXX]

Dunno Mike...IIRC, the group buy, through GP Suspension, didn't utilize Gold Valves on the rebound side as they felt they were unnecessary. It would seem they can be shimmed sucessfully.

My take on the difference in feel is the path 3 different manufacturers took to solve the same problem. As a matter of fact, Ohlins has 20mm valves that can be used too, but my buddy Rick who both sells and services Penske, Ohlins and Racetech stuff recommended the Penske valves after my initial Racetech install and subsequent observations as to what the front was or wasn't doing. I spoke with one of the guys here (Dundane?) who was very well versed with suspension and he suggested a completely different stack for the Racetech valves. Unfortunately, I already had the Penske valves installed. I suppose I could try the Ohlins at some point too, but Rick already has done a lot of back to back with the different valves and I feel confident the Penske's are correct, for me.

I'm glad you're happy with the Racetechs, but you may have a different opinion if you tried the others too...Hank

[bartonmd]

Dunno Mike...IIRC, the group buy, through GP Suspension, didn't utilize Gold Valves on the rebound side as they felt they were unnecessary. It would seem they can be shimmed sucessfully.

My take on the difference in feel is the path 3 different manufacturers took to solve the same problem. As a matter of fact, Ohlins has 20mm valves that can be used too, but my buddy Rick who both sells and services Penske, Ohlins and Racetech stuff recommended the Penske valves after my initial Racetech install and subsequent observations as to what the front was or wasn't doing. I spoke with one of the guys here (Dundane?) who was very well versed with suspension and he suggested a completely different stack for the Racetech valves. Unfortunately, I already had the Penske valves installed. I suppose I could try the Ohlins at some point too, but Rick already has done a lot of back to back with the different valves and I feel confident the Penske's are correct, for me.

I'm glad you're happy with the Racetechs, but you may have a different opinion if you tried the others too...Hank

Hank,

It's not at all about me being happy with the race-techs, nor is it about thinking that what I have is the best without trying anything else (we all know people like that). Rather, I'd equate your comparison to cars... I had the Accord with the base 4-cylinder, then got the Camry with the optional V6, and the camry is better, because it's faster than my accord... It just wasn't a direct comparison.

A better comparison would have been using the Gold Valves on both compression and rebound, then trying the same with the Penske valves... Or leaving your rebound valve the same (stock, stacked), and just using the Penske compression valve. Replacing a half-solution with a full solution, no matter what brand, is not a direct comparison.

When you put the valves in, or when you were there when the valves got put in, what did the valves look like in comparison to the racetech? I can't find a picture online of how the Penske stuff works, so I can only assume it works like the Ohlins and the Racetech stuff, except maybe has a valve stack much like what Dundain showed, with the high/med/low shims seperated by a small washer... A valve stack that can be put on any of the (3) aftermarket valves... Selling mostly a "do it yourself" product, there are way too many variables for RaceTech to put app notes in for hi/mid/low speed applications per bike, per weight, and per fork oil weight...

Again, show me pictures of what somebody else is doing, along with a description of why it's better than "one valve and any shim stack" and I could very well change my mind... As of yet, I have not been able to find anything that SHOWS me that Ohlins or Penske are any different from racetech or from each other, hydraulically...

Mike

[Para045]

I think you are talking about dunedain

[HANKSXXX]

The comparison I presented may not have been apples to apples (as I noted), but merely was verbage of my impression after riding both setups. Rather than turning this into 3 or 4 pages of

back and forth, how bout this...if I pull the front end apart again, I'll be happy to take pictures of

the Penske valves for your perusal. If I can find any pics of the Ohlins, I'll include them too. You can then give your impressions of what you see. Work for you? Now let me make you an offer..if you're coming to WVXXT, lets trade bikes. Be happy to talk about the different setups afterwards over a couple cold one's...Hank

[cb77xx]

The comparison I presented may not have been apples to apples (as I noted), but merely was verbage of my impression after riding both setups. Rather than turning this into 3 or 4 pages of

back and forth, how bout this...if I pull the front end apart again, I'll be happy to take pictures of

the Penske valves for your perusal. If I can find any pics of the Ohlins, I'll include them too. You can then give your impressions of what you see. Work for you? Now let me make you an offer..if you're coming to WVXXT, lets trade bikes. Be happy to talk about the different setups afterwards over a couple cold one's...Hank

Take a look at peterverdonedesigns.com for photos of the valves for comparison. I sent my dampers off to Dan Kyle

to have Ohlins valves and shim stacks installed, put them back in with Ohlins springs and Ohlins 16.5 centistoke oil

along with an Ohlins rear shock for the makeover. Results were outstanding... amazing what pro spec suspension can

do for a smooth platform like the XX.

[bartonmd]

Hank,

That would be great! I still can't find pictures of the Penske valves anywhere, and the Peter Verdon guy didn't mention them on his site... Though, I suspect they're new, being that I can't find them anywhere... I'm actually only doing 3 meets this year... RedNeXXt, SeXXt, and NeXXt... I would definately like to trade bikes if you're at one of those! If the Penskes are better, then they're better... I have no problem at all with that, and depending on price and how much better they are, might pick some up for myself...

CB77XX,

Thanks for the site! Very informitive! I gather that the RaceTech valves flow too much oil, and that he likes the Ohlins valves better, but only after modifying them... Says he's running racetech valves in his current bike, but will try messing with the stock showas before dumping them next time... Very interesting... I gather that the Penske shock is "better" than the Ohlins, but I got tired of messing around under the bike for a half hour every time the wife came with me on a ride to do the spanner thing on the preload... Now, with the Ohlins, I just crank down the remote preload, reach under the cowl and add 4 clicks of compression, and we're off! Yeah, when I went from all stock suspenders to the Gold Valves in the front, and the Ohlins, it made a WORLD of difference... Before, I'd see a bump in a corner and just brace myself to "skip" over it, but now the bumps just get soaked up, no drama, no nothin'...

Mike