XXSTAR Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 one more time is there away to check to see if the Knock senser is good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesail Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 In practical terms, No. I have examined the operation of mine using an oscillascope, and have some belief that it is ok. But even with the equipment to see what it is doing there is no published info on what the proper output is. I do believe that there is very little chance of it going bad though, it should be extremely reliable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
R1000 Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 one more time is there away to check to see if the Knock senser is good http://www.picotech.com/auto/waveforms/knock_sensor.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXSTAR Posted April 25, 2007 Author Share Posted April 25, 2007 thank you Mike, good to see there is one person that cares about another member, Ron one more time is there away to check to see if the Knock senser is good http://www.picotech.com/auto/waveforms/knock_sensor.html one more time is there away to check to see if the Knock senser is good http://www.picotech.com/auto/waveforms/knock_sensor.html thank you R1000, Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RXX Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 thank you Mike, good to see there is one person that cares about another member, Ron one more time is there away to check to see if the Knock senser is good http://www.picotech.com/auto/waveforms/knock_sensor.html one more time is there away to check to see if the Knock senser is good http://www.picotech.com/auto/waveforms/knock_sensor.html thank you R1000, Ron I am sure that will change over time! (Windscreen sent this afternoon, btw, and THANKS!!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXSTAR Posted April 25, 2007 Author Share Posted April 25, 2007 thank you Mike, good to see there is one person that cares about another member, Ron one more time is there away to check to see if the Knock senser is good http://www.picotech.com/auto/waveforms/knock_sensor.html one more time is there away to check to see if the Knock senser is good http://www.picotech.com/auto/waveforms/knock_sensor.html thank you R1000, Ron I am sure that will change over time! (Windscreen sent this afternoon, btw, and THANKS!!) thanks Philip, ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBadExxample Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 Have you inspected the wiring harness connection to the knock sensor? Look for corrosion, loose wires, frayed wires, etc.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redxxrdr Posted April 25, 2007 Share Posted April 25, 2007 I remembered reading this a while back. I think they spaced the sensor out a bit with washers to make it less sensitive. Symptom changed, so he replaced the sensor. I THINK. Knock Sensor Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in PA Posted April 26, 2007 Share Posted April 26, 2007 Hook up a timing light then while engine is running tap on sensor with a screwdriver handle and see if timing retards at various RPM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 Ron, do you have the manual? i was looking tonight and the knock sensor is a pizio sensor that mesures voltage across it. When there is knock the voltage goes down as the vibration breaks the contact some and this is what the ecm mesures to determine retard of the ign. It has three ranges. I have not tried it but, you should be able to ohm it and supply a vibration and mesure less conductance...Got a vibrator???? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesail Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 Ron, do you have the manual? i was looking tonight and the knock sensor is a pizio sensor that mesures voltage across it. When there is knock the voltage goes down as the vibration breaks the contact some and this is what the ecm mesures to determine retard of the ign. It has three ranges. I have not tried it but, you should be able to ohm it and supply a vibration and mesure less conductance...Got a vibrator???? Stan, unless I've been living in a dreamland, you are out to lunch. A piezo sensor is a voltage generator, not a moving contact. It generates voltage by mechanical stress on the quartz crystal, really it is just a microphone set to emphasize mechanical response. Its conductance will be zero. And it is also resonant, so it is very frequency selective. There is another style sensor used on some cars which is not resonant, but I digress. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXSTAR Posted April 27, 2007 Author Share Posted April 27, 2007 do you think the a bad CCT could make the KS turn the FI light on. the reason I don't think it is a bad KS is, the FI light comes on when the engine is not under a load. seams like the engine would knock only under a load. my CCT has just started to make a little noise. I am going to put a new one on. does anyony have a KS I can buy or use to try it. I will also try a O ring on the KS. what size rubber O ring do I need, Thanks Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesail Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 My o-ring experiment was a test, not a fix for anything. Don't waste your time there. Have you checked the wiring harness as described elsewhere? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXSTAR Posted April 27, 2007 Author Share Posted April 27, 2007 yes I did check the wring and I have done the loom fix, I guess I will have to order a new knosk senser, Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in PA Posted April 27, 2007 Share Posted April 27, 2007 Did you try what I said? I wasn't just talking out my arse. Did you try just disconecting the KS and see if the FI light stays off? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXSTAR Posted April 28, 2007 Author Share Posted April 28, 2007 yes I did the light did not come on, I have not found a TL. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in PA Posted April 28, 2007 Share Posted April 28, 2007 yes I did the light did not come on, I have not found a TL. Ron Then leave it disconnected and ride! Just listen for pinging. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXSTAR Posted April 28, 2007 Author Share Posted April 28, 2007 sounds go to me. I have never heard it ping, no reason it should start, thanks Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted May 31, 2007 Share Posted May 31, 2007 Ron, do you have the manual? i was looking tonight and the knock sensor is a pizio sensor that mesures voltage across it. When there is knock the voltage goes down as the vibration breaks the contact some and this is what the ecm mesures to determine retard of the ign. It has three ranges. I have not tried it but, you should be able to ohm it and supply a vibration and mesure less conductance...Got a vibrator???? Stan, unless I've been living in a dreamland, you are out to lunch. A piezo sensor is a voltage generator, not a moving contact. It generates voltage by mechanical stress on the quartz crystal, really it is just a microphone set to emphasize mechanical response. Its conductance will be zero. And it is also resonant, so it is very frequency selective. There is another style sensor used on some cars which is not resonant, but I digress. yep, one wire generates voltage, retards timing. Reading skills still growing. Looks like if disconected should not fault or retard,,,,I wonder, garkness??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gharknes Posted June 10, 2007 Share Posted June 10, 2007 Ron, do you have the manual? i was looking tonight and the knock sensor is a pizio sensor that mesures voltage across it. When there is knock the voltage goes down as the vibration breaks the contact some and this is what the ecm mesures to determine retard of the ign. It has three ranges. I have not tried it but, you should be able to ohm it and supply a vibration and mesure less conductance...Got a vibrator???? Stan, unless I've been living in a dreamland, you are out to lunch. A piezo sensor is a voltage generator, not a moving contact. It generates voltage by mechanical stress on the quartz crystal, really it is just a microphone set to emphasize mechanical response. Its conductance will be zero. And it is also resonant, so it is very frequency selective. There is another style sensor used on some cars which is not resonant, but I digress. yep, one wire generates voltage, retards timing. Reading skills still growing. Looks like if disconected should not fault or retard,,,,I wonder, garkness??? It is my understanding On a stock Bird fault 25 will flag at 3000revs if you disconnect the KS, I wish I could get my hands on one to try, the reason I won't just buy one is because someone else with same problem as me replaced the KS and it made no difference to the fault condition, this means it is either the (1) ECU or (2) some other fault that makes the expected normal KS readings appear wrong and the ECU flags a fault condition, my choice is number 2, in order to progress this further I need the precise test parameters so that I can test every on of them, as the ECU relys on Throttle position - revs - timing - mixture etc etc, I suspect a fault with any of these other things could be interpreted by the ECU as KS Thoughts 1. Throttle position - this has its own diagnostic so is unlickly to be at fault, not ruled out 100% 2. Revs - can't see how this could be at fault, the engine revs up and the rev counter shows it. 3. Timing - ECU controls the ignition timing based on almost every variable on the engine, retards when it gets Knock signal from Knock sensor, I can't see what could mechanically move or slip that would cause the timing to slip out of tolerence although I'm not ruling out the possibility, if the ECU is testing the Knock sensor and it thinks the timing is in a certain condition (retarded or advanced) when it isn't, it could easily interpret this as a KS fault, can't see how this timing error could occur though but I'm open to suggestions. 4. Mixture - again controled via the ECU dependent on revs - throttle - temp - ecu map, ECU controls the injectors directly, can't see how there could be a failure here, only thing maybe would be fuel pressure which could cause the mixture to be wrong, this again could cause the KS to produce invalid readings when being tested, running rich will surpress knock - lean will encourage it. when the ECU shows a fault condition it is indicating that the indicated component is not working correctly There is an awfull lot of testing required here if my overview is correct, what would be extremely helpful is some technical data from honda that explains the actual KS test in detail, on the other hand I could be way off base ................................ http://www.cbr1100xx.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=46100 I also think that this is going to be a common problem amongst early FI birds, I now know of 3, perhaps over the next 12 months that figure could increase. you guys have no idea how frustrating this whole thing is for me, every time I get on my bike (every day) after about 2 mins the FI light comes on my power drops 30% and my fuel consumption drops, I have a workshop I use but it is a general none specialist place, they can strip an engine and build blindfolded but when it comes to stuff like this they are relying on me to tell them what to do, there is also a language barrier, thailand doesn have honda dealers but only for small 100cc bikes. I have no doubt if I was in the states or UK I could have this sorted in days. I am also going through an illness right now which doesn't help either, my one great release and pleasure -my bird is sick too what I am going to do is take the sensor to a workshop where they have a scope and see at least if it is outputting a signal when tapped, difficult here in Thailand trying to explain though.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gharknes Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 does anyone here own a honda ? does anyone here have any contact with a honda dealer does anyone here want to offer a little of their time to help another BB owner (oh and I'm not from the US but that shouldn't make a difference) does anyone here have the ability to go to a honda dealer and ask them to either supply a copy or request from honda the technical details of the knock sensor testing and error process does anyone here think this may be of value to everyone does anyone here think (like I do) that this is about to become a cronic problem with 99 Birds does anyone here think that helping someone that lives in Thailand is out of the question does anyone here think that this is the best BB community on the net does anybody care :-) I used to be a member of a car forum in te UK, we would often get people from around the world dropping in looking for help, I was actually the technical expert as I nationally raced the car, I did all the technical modification the the engine and running gear and many people followed my lead. I was always willing to go out of my way to help others no matter where they resided 99.9% of the time people praised the level of help and support they recieved, I even had the main dealers in my local area contact me several times for help with problems. If I was living at home I would not be requesting anything from anyone here, in fact I would most likely become a technical expert on the FI Bird to everyones benefit Now I know some people may read this thread and say FU (feel free to do so), others may actually find it within themselves to offer assistance Now off the the hospital on my sick bird for an MRI scan and some other tests. cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBadExxample Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Yes - I care about your problem and wish I could help. If I thought it would help I'd stop by my local dealer tomorrow. But the service department at my local dealer is very reluctant to share knowledge. Their standard answer is to tell me to bring the bike in. They are rather snobby to people like me who maintain their own bikes. However I have a couple of casual friends who own/operate small independent motorcycle shops. I will talk to them about your problem. I understand your frustration, it sucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flitemdic Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 I'll see what I can do here. The bike shops here are closed Mondays, but I'll get down there mid week and see what they say. One of the shops I deal with is OK with stuff like this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gharknes Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 many many many thanks guys, you have know idea how much better I feel right now, maybe if I can get this intense headache to lift I might even go out today cheers and the best of luck with your inquiries Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrBadExxample Posted June 11, 2007 Share Posted June 11, 2007 Till you get the problem fixed could you disconnect the wiring harness from the knock sensor and plug a resistor into the wiring harness. This is just a guess, but if the knock sensor is suppose to have a certain resistance till it detects pinging, this could work. Of course this will only be a temporary solution, if indeed the knock sensor is bad. From another forum -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by OffroadX: I bypassed the knock sensor with a 560K-ohm resistor (normal spec is 500K-620K) earlier in the week so that when the sensor is replaced during the mod work, the before/after numbers wouldn't show any improvement due to the proper knock sensor reading. After a couple of dyno pulls with the resistor in place (and no trouble code in the system), took the resistor out and reconnected the knock sensor. Subsequent pulls showed no change in output, but the knock sensor code was back in the system. Pretty conclusive proof that you're not missing a thing with a bad knock sensor code in the system eh? FYI, Brent -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Just an FYI, the knock sensor produces a voltage and sends that back to the ECU, which interprets a higher voltage as knock. The knock sensor test method, as you know, is to measure the resistance across the sensor, and hope for about 560 Ohms. If you simply bypass the sensor with a resistor (or simply unplug it), you *should* get this code: P0327 Knock Sensor 1 Circuit Low Input (Bank I or Single Sensor) If the sensor is bad, usually it will give this code: P0328 Knock Sensor 1 Circuit High Input (Bank I or Single Sensor) If you add a resistor into the circuit in line across the sensor, approx. 1 meg ohm by quick math, that *should* keep the voltage under approx. 2.5 volts, which is the ideal voltage per the service manual. A quick way to test the knock sensor is measure resistance from ECU pin 64, to ground, which is the same as measuring directly across the knock sensor, but insures all wires are properly connected and not shorted as well. To test it's actual operability, you need to measure voltage from pin 1 of the knock sensor (ECU pin 64) to ground. The Service Manual states approx. 2.5 volts is ideal. As far as why you did not get a trouble code, I cannot explain. Source (Good Read) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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