Battery, R/R, or Stator? Final Update after repair

[Keith]

I was out for a ride today with on of my regular riding groups and ended up with a serious

electrical problem. I have one of those voltage meters connected to the battery which allows

me to monitor the state of the battery. At one point, it started beeping and I looked at it and

found that the voltage was reading 11.2. The group had pulled over at that point. After a

few minutes, the battery recovered to about 13.2 volts. I knew I was in trouble, so I disconnected

the headlight and had a couple of guys give me a push start, in order to save a few amps. I

limped as far as Sonora (about 20 miles), at which point the meter was reading 7.3V and the

bike died. Fortunately, I have AMA MoTow and a tow home was arranged.

Now for the trouble shooting. Does anyone have any idea, based on the symptoms stated

above, which of the three major charging system components might be to blame? While

nursing the bike back to civilization, the best I could get on the meter was 13.4 volts early

on after the bump start, even at 6000 RPM. Just before the bike died, even at elevated RPMs,

I was only seeing 7.3V. I have the battery on the Battery Tender, to see if it will take a charge,

but that's all I'm going to do until tomorrow. Any ideas from the knowledgeable members

would be greatly appreciated. I have the shop manual, so I'll start with the trouble shooting

procedures tomorrow.

Thanks.

----------

UPDATE: just a quick note so say that the battery took a full charge overnight; the Battery

Tender thinks the battery is OK, I guess, as the green status LED is lit.

I start the trouble shooting process this afternoon.

Thanks to everyone who has commented and provided suggestions. :icon_clap:

[exskibum]

Suckage of the large and troubling variety, sir!

I'm going to guess, Keith: R/R is my first guess, followed very closely by stator. But what do the connectors look like that attach to your R/R? Any discoloration or burning?? If so, I'm leaning harder to the R/R than the stator.

That's an '03 you're riding, right? How many miles on it?? Thinking you want to ping Warchild on this 'un -- he's done some testing of higher output Stators on the FJR and loads up his stators with electric underpanties and all sort of juice drawing LD farkles -- so he's about as familiar with real time voltage readings and what they mean as anyone on the boards. I can tell you, mostly from reading his testing posts, that the voltage numbers you were showing were WAAAAYYYYY low and unhealthy. (Something you wouldn't have known if I hadn't said, huh? )

EDIT to note: reading below: Joe may also be guessing, but it's probably more educated than my guessing. Hope he's wrong about the stator, though.

[Guest rockmeupto125]

I was out for a ride today with on of my regular riding groups and ended up with a serious

electrical problem. I have one of those voltage meters connected to the battery which allows

me to monitor the state of the battery. At one point, it started beeping and I looked at it and

found that the voltage was reading 11.2. The group had pulled over at that point. After a

few minutes, the battery recovered to about 13.2 volts. I knew I was in trouble, so I disconnected

the headlight and had a couple of guys give me a push start, in order to save a few amps. I

limped as far as Sonora (about 20 miles), at which point the meter was reading 7.3V and the

bike died. Fortunately, I have AMA MoTow and a tow home was arranged.

Now for the trouble shooting. Does anyone have any idea, based on the symptoms stated

above, which of the three major charging system components might be to blame? While

nursing the bike back to civilization, the best I could get on the meter was 13.4 volts early

on after the bump start, even at 6000 RPM. Just before the bike died, even at elevated RPMs,

I was only seeing 7.3V. I have the battery on the Battery Tender, to see if it will take a charge,

but that's all I'm going to do until tomorrow. Any ideas from the knowledgeable members

would be greatly appreciated. I have the shop manual, so I'll start with the trouble shooting

procedures tomorrow.

Thanks.

*Your battery may have failed, but your system should still be trying to supply the needed voltage.

*A regulator doesn't actually regulate, it limits voltage. It can't make voltage higher, only lower. Typically, when the regulator fails, it lets through excess voltage, which if left unchecked, can ruin other components.

*When the stator fails, the voltage drops. There's your answer.

But I'm hoping I'm wrong, and that your regulator has failed in a goofy way, or that your battery charges up and this never happens again for some strange reason.

[gharknes]

Suckage of the large and troubling variety, sir!

I'm going to guess, Keith: R/R is my first guess, followed very closely by stator. But what do the connectors look like that attach to your R/R? Any discoloration or burning?? If so, I'm leaning harder to the R/R than the stator.

That's an '03 you're riding, right? How many miles on it?? Thinking you want to ping Warchild on this 'un -- he's done some testing of higher output Stators on the FJR and loads up his stators with electric underpanties and all sort of juice drawing LD farkles -- so he's about as familiar with real time voltage readings and what they mean as anyone on the boards. I can tell you, mostly from reading his testing posts, that the voltage numbers you were showing were WAAAAYYYYY low and unhealthy. (Something you wouldn't have known if I hadn't said, huh? )

EDIT to note: reading below: Joe may also be guessing, but it's probably more educated than my guessing. Hope he's wrong about the stator, though.

Burnt connector on the yellow wires from the stator will indicate a coil gone bad in the stator "1 of 3", the effect this has is reduced charging and extra load on the remaining 2 coils/yellow wires, this will cause them to overheat and burn the plastic connector, if there is no stress showing on this connector then I'd go for the RR or associated wiring, check all the connectors first, check the condition of the fuse to the left of the battery under a little black plastic cover, it's located just outside the frame near/in front of the RR.

[dunedain]

Now for the trouble shooting. Does anyone have any idea, based on the symptoms stated

above, which of the three major charging system components might be to blame? While

nursing the bike back to civilization, the best I could get on the meter was 13.4 volts early

on after the bump start, even at 6000 RPM. Just before the bike died, even at elevated RPMs,

I was only seeing 7.3V. I have the battery on the Battery Tender, to see if it will take a charge,

but that's all I'm going to do until tomorrow. Any ideas from the knowledgeable members

would be greatly appreciated. I have the shop manual, so I'll start with the trouble shooting

procedures tomorrow.

Thanks.

Pull your tail section off.

Use a good digital volt meter

Put it on AC (Yes AC!) Voltage.

Unplug your RR

You'll have 3 yellow wires in the RR plug.

Put the meter between two of them and run it up to 5000 rpm then note voltage, pair up two other yellow ones on the meter hit 5000 rpm. Then your last pair, the goal being to take three readings for the 3 possible combos.

If you have readings under 50v and/or one drastically different then the stator is bad.

go here to verify plus it's a good resource for checking the RR too

http://www.electrosport.com/electrosport_fault_finding.html

Also, their stators are $139 while OEM is $242 (could be crap but......)

[Keith]

An update and a bump to get this back to the top of the list.

I've run through all of the tests from the ElectroSport link:

Charging system trouble shooting guide

and the conclussion I draw from them is that the stator is gone. However, I don't

understand what's happening nd hope someone on the list smarter than me can explain.

The trouble shooting guide shows three test to be performed on the stator:

1) The static test of continuity of the coils indicate that the stator coils are good. The ohm

meter shows that the coils do not have any breaks, i.e. nearly zero ohms between any pair

of the three leads.

2) The static test to check for shorts to ground indicate that there are no shorts; the ohm

meter shows a complete open between all of the three leads and chassis ground.

3) The dynamic test of the stator output, with the connector to the Regulator/Rectifier

disconnected shows 9.2V AC on one leg, 8.9V AC on the second, and 1.6V AC on the third

all taken at 5000RPM. All three should read nearly equal and should be over 50V AC.

The lack of AC output sure indicates the stator is not working, but why would the other two

tests indicate that the coils are good? I just don't understand that.

All other tests seem to show the rest of the system is good. The tests on the RR indicate

that the diodes are good, so I guess it isn't the problem.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. At this point, as far as I can tell, I need to order a new

stator and get it installed.

[Guest rockmeupto125]

What happens when the stator malfunctions is that the insulation of the windings breaks down. You've got continuity, and you have isolation from ground, but the insulation has broken down, creating a short circuit. Not the kind where the current goes where you don't want it to, but the kind that the current doesn't go where you want it to...in other words, the winding is effectively shorter.....and can no longer produce the output voltage you desire.

Make sense?

[mikesail]

Keith, you missed a key part of the test. (the procedure is actually pretty good from my perspective )

The stator coils resistance needs to be between 3 and 10 ohms, according to the guide. I trust those numbers to be fairly representative of reality. you did not say what resistence you measured but implied it is very low. Less than 3 indicates that some of the coils are internally shorted and the low voltage you measured is consistent with that. I would expect that you will see some of the coils looking burnt with the normal varnish color becoming very dark.

it is entirely possible that some other fault caused the stator to overload and fail. I would be careful to check that all the output connections are good, and that all three sections show the same voltage when running. If the three outputs are not equal, then the loading is unequal as well.

[Keith]

Make sense?

Thanks, Joe. Yes, that does make sense. Also, see my reply to the next post.

[Keith]

Keith, you missed a key part of the test. (the procedure is actually pretty good from my perspective )

The stator coils resistance needs to be between 3 and 10 ohms, according to the guide. I trust those numbers to be fairly representative of reality. you did not say what resistence you measured but implied it is very low. Less than 3 indicates that some of the coils are internally shorted and the low voltage you measured is consistent with that. I would expect that you will see some of the coils looking burnt with the normal varnish color becoming very dark.

it is entirely possible that some other fault caused the stator to overload and fail. I would be careful to check that all the output connections are good, and that all three sections show the same voltage when running. If the three outputs are not equal, then the loading is unequal as well.

You're right, I did leave out that data in my previous post. All three legs indicate .2 ohms.

I assume your comment about uneven loads means after I have the new stator, I should check for that,

correct? It appears uneven now, but, of course, the current stator is shot, so all readings are suspect.

So, between your repsonse and Joe's, I guess it's pretty clear that that stator is bad. This begs another

question, of course: Why did it go? I don't run a lot of heavy loads on the system. I have heated grips

and a Widder vest. I don't have any other farkles, such as driving lights, etc. I'm not running high wattage

headlights, just standard 35W SilverStars, both high and low.

Thanks again for all the responses; they are much appreciated.

[SBBXX]

Keith, you missed a key part of the test. (the procedure is actually pretty good from my perspective )

The stator coils resistance needs to be between 3 and 10 ohms, according to the guide. I trust those numbers to be fairly representative of reality. you did not say what resistence you measured but implied it is very low. Less than 3 indicates that some of the coils are internally shorted and the low voltage you measured is consistent with that. I would expect that you will see some of the coils looking burnt with the normal varnish color becoming very dark.

it is entirely possible that some other fault caused the stator to overload and fail. I would be careful to check that all the output connections are good, and that all three sections show the same voltage when running. If the three outputs are not equal, then the loading is unequal as well.

+1

A stator normally fails because something(s) is drawing more current than it can produce, and it overheats. Nine times out of ten a bad battery is in the mix somewhere. If it's a new battery, get it tested, if its over three years old just get another one. Make sure it's the right size. A larger capacity is great for starting, but will also draw more from the system when it charges.

marty

[gharknes]

An update and a bump to get this back to the top of the list.

I've run through all of the tests from the ElectroSport link:

Charging system trouble shooting guide

and the conclussion I draw from them is that the stator is gone. However, I don't

understand what's happening nd hope someone on the list smarter than me can explain.

The trouble shooting guide shows three test to be performed on the stator:

1) The static test of continuity of the coils indicate that the stator coils are good. The ohm

meter shows that the coils do not have any breaks, i.e. nearly zero ohms between any pair

of the three leads.

2) The static test to check for shorts to ground indicate that there are no shorts; the ohm

meter shows a complete open between all of the three leads and chassis ground.

3) The dynamic test of the stator output, with the connector to the Regulator/Rectifier

disconnected shows 9.2V AC on one leg, 8.9V AC on the second, and 1.6V AC on the third

all taken at 5000RPM. All three should read nearly equal and should be over 50V AC.

The lack of AC output sure indicates the stator is not working, but why would the other two

tests indicate that the coils are good? I just don't understand that.

All other tests seem to show the rest of the system is good. The tests on the RR indicate

that the diodes are good, so I guess it isn't the problem.

Any thoughts would be appreciated. At this point, as far as I can tell, I need to order a new

stator and get it installed.

Your meter was on DC, but looks like one of your coils is reading low.

[Keith]

Your meter was on DC, but looks like one of your coils is reading low.

No, the meter was definitely on the AC setting.

[Keith]

A question to those who have done this before I open the bike to replace the stator: do I

need to drain the oil before I pull the stator cover or is it above the normal oil level when

the bike is not running?

Thanks.

[SD Marc]

I have done it without changing the oil.

[mikesail]

Keith, you missed a key part of the test. (the procedure is actually pretty good from my perspective )

The stator coils resistance needs to be between 3 and 10 ohms, according to the guide. I trust those numbers to be fairly representative of reality. you did not say what resistence you measured but implied it is very low. Less than 3 indicates that some of the coils are internally shorted and the low voltage you measured is consistent with that. I would expect that you will see some of the coils looking burnt with the normal varnish color becoming very dark.

it is entirely possible that some other fault caused the stator to overload and fail. I would be careful to check that all the output connections are good, and that all three sections show the same voltage when running. If the three outputs are not equal, then the loading is unequal as well.

+1

A stator normally fails because something(s) is drawing more current than it can produce, and it overheats. Nine times out of ten a bad battery is in the mix somewhere. If it's a new battery, get it tested, if its over three years old just get another one. Make sure it's the right size. A larger capacity is great for starting, but will also draw more from the system when it charges.

marty

To continue on the failure mechanism theories, it is almost certain that an overload causes any stator failure. It IS possible for a short to occur due to wires just rubbing against each other, but not common. It almost certainly happens due to excessive current being consumed.

Why is excessive current being consumed? Charging a flat battery is one thought. Too high a load from your vest and grips is possible, what is their current draw?

A subtle way of this happening would be to have one bad wire connection coming out of the stator to the RR. This would mean that only one section of the stator can power the bike, and it would almost certainly be overstressed then. Also if the RR had a bad rectifier section the same partial loading could occur with the subsequent overheating of the stator coil which is still being rectified.

A point about series regulators is in order. This is not obvious unless you study electronics, thus it is suprising to most people. The heat produced in a series regulator is at a maximum when the load is about 1/3 of the maximum possible. It is near minimum at either zero load or FULL LOAD. In practice certain other factors tend to make the full load scenerio much worse than the minimum load, but still the most heat is produced at some intermediate level of current. So while extra load does cause more heating of the stator, it does not necessarily increase the temperature of the RR

After replacing the stator I would not assume the the RR is working just because the right voltage is coming out. You need to check the stator voltages to see that the three outputs are being shared equally. If they don't match then there is still a problem with either the wiring or the RR.

I've not bothered to look at my RR, but it probably uses the frame to conduct away some of its heat. If it is not firmly against the frame then that heat needs to be cooled by the airflow, which of course depends on speed, airtemp, luggage blocking airflow? If it gets to hot to touch, then you are almost certainly at an internal temperature approaching failure of the semiconductors. Cooler is better.

[Keith]

To continue on the failure mechanism theories, it is almost certain that an overload causes any stator failure. It IS possible for a short to occur due to wires just rubbing against each other, but not common. It almost certainly happens due to excessive current being consumed.

Why is excessive current being consumed? Charging a flat battery is one thought. Too high a load from your vest and grips is possible, what is their current draw?

A subtle way of this happening would be to have one bad wire connection coming out of the stator to the RR. This would mean that only one section of the stator can power the bike, and it would almost certainly be overstressed then. Also if the RR had a bad rectifier section the same partial loading could occur with the subsequent overheating of the stator coil which is still being rectified.

A point about series regulators is in order. This is not obvious unless you study electronics, thus it is suprising to most people. The heat produced in a series regulator is at a maximum when the load is about 1/3 of the maximum possible. It is near minimum at either zero load or FULL LOAD. In practice certain other factors tend to make the full load scenerio much worse than the minimum load, but still the most heat is produced at some intermediate level of current. So while extra load does cause more heating of the stator, it does not necessarily increase the temperature of the RR

After replacing the stator I would not assume the the RR is working just because the right voltage is coming out. You need to check the stator voltages to see that the three outputs are being shared equally. If they don't match then there is still a problem with either the wiring or the RR.

I've not bothered to look at my RR, but it probably uses the frame to conduct away some of its heat. If it is not firmly against the frame then that heat needs to be cooled by the airflow, which of course depends on speed, airtemp, luggage blocking airflow? If it gets to hot to touch, then you are almost certainly at an internal temperature approaching failure of the semiconductors. Cooler is better.

Thanks for the excellent write up. I will definitely check out everything in the charging system very

closely after the stator is replaced. For good measure, I also ordered a new RR, just in case.

I don't know what the wattage draw is for either the vest or the grips, but I know others run both of

these items without problems. I'm putting my money on the battery, as a couple of times recently,

before this failure occured, I got a beep or two from the voltage meter right after starting, which has

not happened before in the two years I've had the meter installed; that could indicate the battery was

getting ready to, or was in the process of, dying.

[gharknes]

Your meter was on DC, but looks like one of your coils is reading low.

No, the meter was definitely on the AC setting.

Your meter was on DC.......................trust me

[Keith]

Your meter was on DC.......................trust me

Trust me, it absolutely was NOT on DC. I even checked it for calibration by checking

it in the AC outlet; it showed the expected 120V AC, well, actually 119V AC, but that's

close enough.

[gharknes]

Your meter was on DC.......................trust me

Trust me, it absolutely was NOT on DC. I even checked it for calibration by checking

it in the AC outlet; it showed the expected 120V AC, well, actually 119V AC, but that's

close enough.

OK I believe

where u reading between each yellow wire or did you ground one of the leads

[Keith]

OK I believe

where u reading between each yellow wire or did you ground one of the leads

I took six measurements in total: 1) three between each pair of yellow wires, which yielded

readings below 0.2 ohms each, and 2) three between each yellow wire and the engine case,

all of which yielded infinite resistance.

[gharknes]

OK I believe

where u reading between each yellow wire or did you ground one of the leads

I took six measurements in total: 1) three between each pair of yellow wires, which yielded

readings below 0.2 ohms each, and 2) three between each yellow wire and the engine case,

all of which yielded infinite resistance.

your AC readings just don't seem right to me, I think it rare that all three stator windings will go down at the same time, your AC voltage readings should be between each yellow wire and not ground.....just trying to help

[runninn]

Lost the RR on my current bird... am curiously waiting to see what the problem turns out to be in this scenario!

[Keith]

OK, it has been a long time since I started this thread, but today I finally got around to installing all

the bits I ordered after doing the debug procedure, and wanted to post up the results.

To recap: the diagnostic suite indicated that the stator was dead; I was getting almost no A/C voltage

out of the it and the resistance measurements of the coils were below the value indicated to be the

minimum (I read 0.2 ohms and the diagnostic said 0.5 minimum if the stator was good). Tests of the

R/R were inconclussive, IMO. So, I ordered a new stator and a new R/R, as well as replacing the

battery (it was almost four years old anyway). They took forever to get here and by the time they did

arrive, we were ready to leave on vacation. So, long story short, I just today did the install.

I started with the R/R; after installation, just to to be sure it wasn't the problem, I hooked everything

back up and fired the bike up. Checking the chrarge voltage indicated no charging was taking place,

so on with the next task, replacing the stator. That wasn't too bad, although snaking the cable from

the stator to the connector for the R/R was a bit of a challenge. That done, off came the cover and

the old stator was removed. It looks pretty burnt, but it's hard for me to say if that's just normal after

25000 miles. The new stator windings are grey, whereas the old ones are burnt brown. I swapped

out the new for the old and put everything back together. Before completely buttoning up, I fired up

the bike and checked the charge rate. 14.5V! I know that is high, but it's the same as

the bike showed before the problem, so I think I'm back to where I was, at least.

Whether or not the R/R was also shot is unknown; I'm not going to hook it back up to find out, as for

all I know, it is the reason the stator took a dump.

An interesting observation, however: the new stator windings read the same as the old one... I can't

figure that out, but the results certainly indicate the stator was shot.

[jblackbird2000]

Thanks for the update Keith. I was having similar problems with my bike shortly after you initially posted this thread, and have been watching it as you went through your diagonistics. I ended up with a bad Stator as well, and just got mine in last night. I powered it up, and I too am good, I'm getting ~14.4 now.

I didn't replace my R/R though, I sure hope I don't have to. I guess we'll see.

When you say the windings of your stator still have the same readings as your old, do you mean the .2 ohm resistance? or you're getting voltages out of them that are unequal and less than 50V?

I haven't gone through the entire trouble shooting guide yet with mine, I'm hopefully going to get to that today sometime.

Jay