Lynx60 Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 I have an 03 XX with just 9,920 kilometers on it. Bought it new in May 03. Today, while riding slow in city traffic, I heard a noise coming from the chain, sort of a "clack, clack, clack" sound ... like the chain was rubbing on something. I had heard this noise before when the engine was turned off and I was wheeling the bike around in my garage. Anyway, I took the bike to the dealer and after a while he finally located the problem. The noise was coming from my front sprocket. This is my first chain driven bike, but it strikes me as a bit unusual for a front sprocket to wear out so quickly ... especially since I've always lubed the chain every 300 or 400 kilometers with Maxima Chain Guard. Can anyone tell me if this is a normal problem? At 62 years old, I don't do any wheelies or wild squid riding, although I do twist the throttle a bit and run it up & down the gears in the mountain roads & twisties. I'm here in Taiwan, where Honda is not officially set up with their own dealerships. When I bought the bike the dealer gave me a one year warranty (which expired last month). His suggestion was to replace the front sprocket with an AFAM sprocket, which he can get in one day. An OEM Honda sprocket would take about 2 to 3 weeks to get, he claimed. I've read some previous posts on this site about front sprockets ... some saying after market sprockets lack a rubber cushioned hub, are a bit noisy, and wear faster. FYI, while the dealer was working on my bike, taking off the front sprocket cover, I did notice something drop to the ground. I picked it up and could see that it looked like a piece of a black, oily, chewed up rubber band. Was that my rubber cushioned hub? If so, can that be replaced, instead of replacing the whole front sprocket? What would cause that rubber cushioned hub to disintegrate after just 9,920 kilometers? To be honest with you, the dealer showed me the front sprocket after he removed it. The teeth looked ok to me. Indeed I couldn't detect any excessive wear on the sprocket. At first the dealer was going to try to put a metal spacer (like a large washer) inside the sprocket to "take up the loose play" which he claimed was causing the noise. But then he changed his mind and said I should just let him get a new AFAM sprocket and install it. Any comments would be most appreciated. Thanks. Lynx60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Had you ever ajusted the chain? Sounds to me like it was loose and perhaps rubbing on the centerstand. I can't see the sprocket being shot with that little miles on it without some serious neglect, in which case your chain would be toast as well. At first the dealer was going to try to put a metal spacer (like a large washer) inside the sprocket to "take up the loose play" which he claimed was causing the noise. But then he changed his mind and said I should just let him get a new AFAM sprocket and install it. Your dealer sounds like a hack. Ajust your chain if you haven't and see if the noise goes away. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Furbird Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 Never heard of the rubber coming off a front sprocket before. Regardless, that shouldn't cause the type of noise you were talking about. That noise is usually because the chain is not tightened up to spec. I think the dealer is taking you for a ride personally, but I don't trust dealers anyway. That's why I do my own work to my bike. What's he charging you for this front sprocket? If it's anymore than $25 plus labor, then it's classified as RAPE. You can get front sprockets all day long for 18-25 bucks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SwampNut Posted June 7, 2004 Share Posted June 7, 2004 I've been using the AFAM 16 tooth sprockets and recommend them. I can't tell any difference (other than better acceleration). It is very strange for the sprocket to be worn at that mileage. Have you seen it yourself? What's wrong with it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynx60 Posted June 7, 2004 Author Share Posted June 7, 2004 Redbird: I've had my chain adjusted about every 2,000 kilometers or sooner if I noticed too much slack in the chain. However, I must tell you that shortly after I bought the bike and had an oil change the idiot young man over-tightened the chain so that it virtually had no slack play in it. I rode it that way for about 60 kilometers before I noticed that it seemed too tight. Took my bike to another shop and the mechanic said "Yes, the chain is way too tight." So it he re-adjusted it. Thereafter, I always insisted that the chain be adjusted according to spec and never over-tightened. Furbird: Thanks for the price info on new sprockets. At this time I don't know what the dealer is going to charge me for the AFAM sprocket. :roll: Lynx60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrdxx Posted June 8, 2004 Share Posted June 8, 2004 I think you may have correctly diagnosed your problem in your first paragraph, where you noted the noise while wheeling the bike around in your garage. My suspicion is that the chain is dragging on the centerstand, and I think the period of riding with the chain too tight has contributed to premature chain wear. Motorcycle chains generally tend not to wear evenly, and a chain adjusted with too little slack will prematurely wear unevenly as well. What I would do is this: put the bike on the centerstand, and (with the engine off, and the transmission in neutral) spin the rear wheel slowly over several rotations, while watching the sag of the chain below the swingarm. If the sag seems to remain fairly constant, then I'm full of BS. If the sag seems to vary by a considerable amount, then the chain has been stretched, and will have to be replaced. The problem here is where to set the chain slack adjustment. If you set the slack at the "loose" point, the chain will be too tight, and will accelerate the wear. If you set the slack at the "tight" point, the chain will actually be too loose at some point, and will clatter against the centerstand, or swingarm, or possibly derail from the sprocket. If you determine the chain to be the problem, you may or may not have to replace a sprocket; with 10K kilometers, I suspect they may be okay. Be thankful you didn't create more problems at the output shaft bearing, keep up with the regular lubrication, and run the new chain at the loose end of the adjustment tolerance (remember, it's a SLACK adjustment, not a TENSION adjustment). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynx60 Posted June 9, 2004 Author Share Posted June 9, 2004 First of all, let me thank everyone for taking the time & effort to reply to my problem. I sincerely appreciate your wisdom & advice. I may, however, have omitted some essential details in my initial post that could have a bearing on your analysis. Also some new details. 1. One time, shortly after I bought the bike & when the mileage was about 4,000km, the young guy at the shop who did an oil change, mistakenly over-tightened the chain. I didn’t realize this until after I had ridden the bike for about 60km. Foolish me, I didn’t check his work. But as soon as I noticed it, I stopped by another shop and had them loosen the chain immediately and adjust it. Later, I returned to the first shop and complained like hell. The owner apologized but doubted any damage was done in that short distance to either the front sprocket or chain. 2. About 3,000km’s later, I started to hear a “clack, clack sound” from the bike whenever I wheeled it around in my garage with the engine off, often when rolling it back & forth. 3. At 8,400km, after running through the factory Bridgestones and a set of Metz M-1s, I decided to switch over to the new Metz Z6s and also have the 6mm spacer installed. The bike’s performance improved significantly, especially in the tight, twisting mountain roads we have here in Taiwan. 4. At 9,920km, as I stated in my initial post, my problem appeared. A loud “clack, clack sound” coming from the chain area. 5. Yesterday, I returned to the shop to see if the new Afam front sprocket had arrived & was installed. It hadn’t arrived yet. So the shop owner & I sat down for a talk. He mentioned that he had been thinking about the cause of my problem. I reminded him of the incident whereby one of his young mechanics over-tightened the chain. The owner is very accommodating & understanding. He rides himself and is one of the better motorcycle mechanics we’ve got here. Anyway, after some discussion he more or less admitted that a mistake was made when they installed the 6mm spacer and the new tires. He drew a diagram and explained how the spacer alters the suspension geometry. Then he mentioned that the mistake was not giving the chain enough slack. After the installation of the 6mm spacer and the new tires, he explained, they simply put the bike on its center stand and adjusted the chain to NORMAL specs. However, he said, the chain should have been given more slack. Indeed, he said, the chain slack should have been checked afterward with the bike off the center stand & with me sitting on it. He also demonstrated this principle by having someone sit on my bike and showing me the before & after difference of loading the suspension. (Could any of you guys tell me if he’s on the right track here about the problem?) 6. In my discussion with the shop owner yesterday our attention returned to the suspect front sprocket. Previously he had removed it & showed it to me, but not being an engineer I really couldn’t see anything wrong with it. The teeth looked fine. He agreed that the teeth were in excellent shape, but he said the sprocket’s spline was slightly worn causing a slight wobble on the shaft, which he associated with the noise problem. At this point he made a suggestion. Knowing that I want to keep the 6mm spacer installed on the shock, and acknowledging that the chain may already have suffered some stretching, he suggested that I consider up-grading the whole setup so as to lessen the possibility of future problems. His suggestion: install a new Afam 18 tooth steel front sprocket; a new Afam 46 tooth gold-colored aluminum alloy rear sprocket; a new super-duty RK 530GXW chain; and lower the center stand just a hair. All for $303. He calculated the power output to the rear wheel would be the same as with the original sprockets, but these larger sprockets would help overcome the problem caused by the 6mm spacer. 7. The cost doesn’t bother me so much, but I hate to waste money unnecessarily. And at this stage I’m also a little worried about something that Jim referred to in his post; namely, any damage to the output shaft bearing that could be caused by an over-tightened chain. (Do any of you know how I can check to see if there is any damage to the output shaft bearing?) If there is any damage, then I certainly don’t want to proceed with the shop owner’s suggestion about new sprockets & chain. Instead, I would want to thrash it out with the owner about who’s responsible for damages since it was his shop that over-tightened the chain in the first place and later failed to compensate for the 6mm spacer by giving the chain an extra margin of slack. Looking forward to any comments. Lynx60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy1100 Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Ok I've done the 6mm ride height adjustment and have never had any problems or ever had to have someone else set the chain slack with me sitting on the bike..... I'm gonna say.....BS. One question though. Stock cans? I think you've found the answer to your problem. When I did the 6mm ride height, I too had the clack, clack sound. But it didn't last long. The sound was cause by the chain smacking the center stand, while moving around the garage, and occasionally while riding. What I did to fix this, is pull the center stand bumper off of the pipe, drill a hole in it, run a bolt through it with a washer, lock washer and nut to re-attach. Without pushing the bumpers "tit" back through the hole, it effectively spaced the bumper out an extra 1/2 inch, which lowered the center stand, and poof, no more clacking. I'd try that before you spend a bunch of money on chains sprockets etc..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXTi Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Good suggestion Andy. I'm having the same issue now and I'll be gald to steal your idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrdxx Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 And I have to apologize for putting ideas in your head about the countershaft. It is a possibility, though any trouble would probably have already appeared in the form of at worst a catastrophic failure, or at least, an oil leak from behind the front sprocket. Since none of this applies, put your mind at ease. I think your sprockets are most likely OK. The chain may have stretched, and may be contributing to the noise. You can even remove the chain and measure the length to accurately gauge the stretch if you want. If you can eliminate the chain as the origin, the fix may be as simple (and cheap) as spacing the centerstand down slightly as described above. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynx60 Posted June 10, 2004 Author Share Posted June 10, 2004 Andy1100: Thanks so much for the suggestion about extending the centerstand bumper. I think you've hit the nail on the head, so to speak. I'll definitely try that tomorrow. If, for any reason, I don't meet with success then I plan to invoke rockmeupto125's wisdom; namely, "Always try to go BACK to fix a problem, not forward into the unknown." And yes rockmeupto125, I knew exactly what you were saying despite the typo. Don't worry, I often make small typing mistakes like that myself. jrdxx & rockmeupto125: I think you're 100% right about the outputshaft bearing NOT being damaged. The noise I'm encountering is indeed a cyclical noise, not a grumbly sound or vibration, and there's no oil leak behind the front sprocket. Let me thank all of you for your advice & suggestions. I think you may have saved me a lot of money & aggravation. I plan to explore your ideas & suggestions tomorrow. I'll report back to you & let you know how everything turns out. Thanks once again guys. P.S. If simply extending the centerstand bumper solves my problem, then surely rockmeupto125 was on the right track when he wrote that perhaps I am "being handed a load of hooey by a dealer who is nothing more than a tinker willing to spend (my) money to fix something he knows nothing about." Lynx60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynx60 Posted June 13, 2004 Author Share Posted June 13, 2004 Report time! Friday, checked the space between the centerstand & the chain. The chain was no way near the centerstand, plenty of room. So the dealer/mechanic had his boys lossen the chain and give it more slack. Still not touching the centerstand. Rolled the bike out the shop door. No noise. Dealer/mechanic took it for a short ride. No noise, the clack, clack sound was gone. I rode the bike home. Seemed fine. Saturday, went on a nice ride up & down twisty mountain roads and pushed the bike hard in all the gears, sometimes revving as high as 10Krpm's. Later, drove it very slowly on quiet country road, even stopped & wheeled the bike back & forth. No noise at all. The clack, clack, clack sound was completely gone. Conclusion: I ain't got one because I'm not an expert. But since the previous clacking noise did correspond to chain/sprocket rotatation, and because they did remove the front sprocket cover and clean out all that grime & crap in there, and also loosened the chain significantly, I am inclined to believe that these measures somehow mysteriously corrected the problem. I don't know why, but I do know that last week, with the bike on the centerstand, in neutral, and with the front sprocket cover removed, I could place my finger on the side of the front sprocket and feel the clack, clack noise when the rear tire was rotated. And the noise steadily corresponded to the sprocket rotation. Anyway, the noise is gone now and I'm hoping that I can enjoy many more miles before I "really" must change the chain & sprocket. Thanks once again. Lynx60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
demon Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 Later on down the road, when you do change the sprockets, don't go with the 18 front 46 rear. You will be gearing it up approx 4% taller than stock. This will give you less acceleration, but better gas mileage. General rule: 1 tooth up front = 3 on rear. If you go with an 18 on front, you will have to go to a 48 on the rear to keep the stock gearing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted June 13, 2004 Share Posted June 13, 2004 I agree with Joe as well. Cleaning out the cover, and re-lubing the chain probably sorted your problem, temporarily. BTW, chain slack is measured on the sidestand, not center stand. That may have made all of the difference right there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynx60 Posted June 13, 2004 Author Share Posted June 13, 2004 Northman writes: chain slack is measured on the sidestand, not center stand. That may have made all of the difference right there Thanks very much. I didn't know that. I always assumed it was measured on the centerstand. Rockmeupto125 writes: my guess is that the chain is stretched, kinked, or damaged in one place. Plan on replacing it a little sooner than normal That's my suspicion too! That the chain has been stretched & kinked in places due to the over-tightening. Damn, I hate it when dealers hire inexperienced high school kids to screw up our bikes and then assume no responsibility for their mistakes. Demon writes: If you go with an 18 on front, you will have to go to a 48 on the rear to keep the stock gearing I'm no engineer, indeed I'm a blooming idiot when it comes to gear ratios and other complicated mechanical things, but if stock gearing on my XX is 17 front & 44 rear, doesn't that equal 2.58? If so, then wouldn't 18 front & 47 rear give you 2.61, which would already be a plus 0.03 above stock gearing (without going to 48 rear which would equal 2.66, or 0.08 above stock gearing)? Lynx60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lynx60 Posted June 13, 2004 Author Share Posted June 13, 2004 Thanks rockmeupto125 for the clarification about Demon's comment. BTW, I didn't know that 17/45 is the standard configuration (for USA models). I just assumed that all XX's had what mine has, 17/44. FYI, mine is a European model. Here in Taiwan, many customers refuse to accept any bike that was initially destined for the domestic Japanese market or the California market. As a European model, perhaps that is why my gear ratio is slightly different? Lynx60 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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