Electrical gremlins. Help!

[Guest cudgel]

Obviously a case of Immaculate Connection.

[cbrxxquad]

Obviously a case of Immaculate Connection.

LOL, my head is spinning on the possible tangents..

[LogoMan]

Ok. New bulb installed. First ride. Bike ran like a scalded dog.

One hour later, bike died on the brakes. Same 'ol. Turn signals come on but don't blink. FI and Oil light both come on and brake lights go out when brakes applied. Bike dies. Pulled one of the connectors at the brake lever and rode her home.

Rear lights work but are faint. Will check the voltage they're getting.

Post ride check of the battery showed 13+ volts with engine off.

I let the bike cool down for an hour, then started it and got 14.7+ volts at the battery for about 4-5 minutes. Bike started to get real hot since the fan doesn't run with this problem and I shut her down.

Crap. It was a great day for a ride.

[cbrxxquad]

check that old stator plug again,,,

I am thinking your gonna need a volt meter up where you cant help but see it, I have a beltec radar that has a alarm if the volts get outside a range.

Only thing that is happening. Left.

might do a load test on the battery just to be sure it is still good. Not that I think it is bad yet. Worried about the liquid in it from overcharge. But, need a volt test to know, running when it happens. Really think it is losing power, but that would be hard to tell by what I am saying.

[LogoMan]

The old stator plug has been replaced with a terminal block. It and the wiring are showing no signs of overheating.

I could stick a voltmeter where I could see it and ride the bike, but the fan doesn't run with this problem nor do the brake lights work.

cudgel walked me through some diags over the phone and the battery and reg/rec. appear OK although he thought maybe the reg/rec could be staying open and overcharging the system. The voltage at the battery with the bike running was higher when I first came home than much later on when the bike was cool and I started it again to recheck voltages. The temp gauge the second time was showing only about 135 degrees instead of 210.

I'm going to check the ground wires on the shock mount support right before their respective connectors to see if I have continuity in all of them.

[mikesail]

OK, one more time. You have a ground problem!

The fan will not work if it doesn't have a proper ground return.

A. possibly the engine case is not grounded to the frame, unlikely but possible. I think the mount bolts make this connection, loosen then retighten.

B. the R/R plug carries a ground connection, check that connector.

C. The battery ground cable is probably fine since it starts, but check that as well.

D. the stator plug is not the problem, it will only cause charging problems.

E. by visually checking every inch of brake light wiring, you CAN find the problem.

All the brake lights need is 12 volts from the switch, easy to check, and a ground return.

You can do things like jumper the bulb ground directly back to the battery, that will verify all of the 12 volt connection side when it lights.

Then find out where the ground is NOT connected, That has to be the problem.

[LogoMan]

OK, one more time. You have a ground problem!

The fan will not work if it doesn't have a proper ground return.

A. possibly the engine case is not grounded to the frame, unlikely but possible. I think the mount bolts make this connection, loosen then retighten.

B. the R/R plug carries a ground connection, check that connector.

C. The battery ground cable is probably fine since it starts, but check that as well.

D. the stator plug is not the problem, it will only cause charging problems.

E. by visually checking every inch of brake light wiring, you CAN find the problem.

All the brake lights need is 12 volts from the switch, easy to check, and a ground return.

You can do things like jumper the bulb ground directly back to the battery, that will verify all of the 12 volt connection side when it lights.

Then find out where the ground is NOT connected, That has to be the problem.

Yes, I have a ground problem. Wish it wasn't intermittent. I'll go through these steps as best I can.

Any ideas how to jumper the bulb ground directly back to the battery?

[mikesail]

OK, one more time. You have a ground problem!

The fan will not work if it doesn't have a proper ground return.

A. possibly the engine case is not grounded to the frame, unlikely but possible. I think the mount bolts make this connection, loosen then retighten.

B. the R/R plug carries a ground connection, check that connector.

C. The battery ground cable is probably fine since it starts, but check that as well.

D. the stator plug is not the problem, it will only cause charging problems.

E. by visually checking every inch of brake light wiring, you CAN find the problem.

All the brake lights need is 12 volts from the switch, easy to check, and a ground return.

You can do things like jumper the bulb ground directly back to the battery, that will verify all of the 12 volt connection side when it lights.

Then find out where the ground is NOT connected, That has to be the problem.

Yes, I have a ground problem. Wish it wasn't intermittent. I'll go through these steps as best I can.

Any ideas how to jumper the bulb ground directly back to the battery?

Just pull the bulb socket out of the housing, poke a little piece of bare wire into the ground terminal next to the bulb. The ground is solid green, I think.

[LogoMan]

OK, one more time. You have a ground problem!

The fan will not work if it doesn't have a proper ground return.

A. possibly the engine case is not grounded to the frame, unlikely but possible. I think the mount bolts make this connection, loosen then retighten.

B. the R/R plug carries a ground connection, check that connector.

C. The battery ground cable is probably fine since it starts, but check that as well.

D. the stator plug is not the problem, it will only cause charging problems.

E. by visually checking every inch of brake light wiring, you CAN find the problem.

All the brake lights need is 12 volts from the switch, easy to check, and a ground return.

You can do things like jumper the bulb ground directly back to the battery, that will verify all of the 12 volt connection side when it lights.

Then find out where the ground is NOT connected, That has to be the problem.

Yes, I have a ground problem. Wish it wasn't intermittent. I'll go through these steps as best I can.

Any ideas how to jumper the bulb ground directly back to the battery?

Just pull the bulb socket out of the housing, poke a little piece of bare wire into the ground terminal next to the bulb. The ground is solid green, I think.

OK. Thanks!

[LogoMan]

Been working on the bike and can't seem to make headway. Cudgel has been a big help but can't solve these problems long distance.

The bike is stripped down so I can access all the wiring.

The bike will run perfectly - meaning no electrical issues - sometimes and then it will malfunction. I cannot find any shorts or ground problems.

This morning I started the bike up and everything was functioning normally. I let it cool down and rolled it out to the driveway so I could continue to fiddle with it and when I tried to start it the turn signals, headlights, tail lights, and fuel pump would not function. This is what it does. It either works fine or those things don't work and don't show any electricity getting to them. All the fuses are good.

I've never found any corrosion on any of the wires anywhere on the bike.

Could the ignition switch be faulty?

Could the ECM be faulty?

Or do I still have a ground or short issue somewhere?

Thanks for your help, guys!

[Mekanix]

Man, I'm just commenting so I can subscribe to this story. I still haven't actually purchased my new harness, I guess I will when if finally becomes a problem - too many things on the house I am spending money on...

When I pulled the back harness down, there were literally hundreds of redundant grounds, or splices. What I noticed, in mine, was that the wires themselves were just tarnished to hell. I even cut open some that I was re-grounding and they were tarnished quite a few inches into the insulation. Electricity travels across the surface of the wire, so I can only assume that the tarnish is at least contributing to my worries. Maybe that is also what is happening to yours.

The only thing I can think of that I would do at this point, if I were troubleshooting mine, would be to pull all the bulbs out and see if it would run ok. Since the issue is sporatic, I think pulling everything but the headlight, driving it in relatively traffic free zones and then putting bulbs back one at a time.

I'm not saying the bulb is suspect, but I think if you found a commonality it would point to the specific wiring feeding that bulb. I think in the previous troubleshooting, whatever bulb you pulled before is pointing in the general direction of the wiring that is causing problems, not actually the bulb.

[LogoMan]

Man, I'm just commenting so I can subscribe to this story. I still haven't actually purchased my new harness, I guess I will when if finally becomes a problem - too many things on the house I am spending money on...

When I pulled the back harness down, there were literally hundreds of redundant grounds, or splices. What I noticed, in mine, was that the wires themselves were just tarnished to hell. I even cut open some that I was re-grounding and they were tarnished quite a few inches into the insulation. Electricity travels across the surface of the wire, so I can only assume that the tarnish is at least contributing to my worries. Maybe that is also what is happening to yours.

The only thing I can think of that I would do at this point, if I were troubleshooting mine, would be to pull all the bulbs out and see if it would run ok. Since the issue is sporatic, I think pulling everything but the headlight, driving it in relatively traffic free zones and then putting bulbs back one at a time.

I'm not saying the bulb is suspect, but I think if you found a commonality it would point to the specific wiring feeding that bulb. I think in the previous troubleshooting, whatever bulb you pulled before is pointing in the general direction of the wiring that is causing problems, not actually the bulb.

cudgel walked me through troubleshooting the wiring at the rear tail light bulbs and it's fine. The bulbs are fine, too. It doesn't matter if they are in or out as far as this problem goes. Frustrating.

The wiring on this bike looks like it did when it left the factory. It's only been in the rain a couple of times and I don't live by the ocean or any salt. Nothing is corroded or tarnished.

The bike is stripped now. No headlight and no front turn signals.

I just can't find the single problem that all the malfunctions point to. It has to be one thing - a ground problem I can't find or something more exotic.

[cbrxxquad]

Yes the key can be the problem. It has contacts for all the problems. I have another one you could try.

[LogoMan]

Yes the key can be the problem. It has contacts for all the problems. I have another one you could try.

I have two fresh ones that don't change the problem. Unless the ignition switch itself is bad or just needs cleaning. Something tells me that isn't the problem, though.

[cbrxxquad]

Yes the key can be the problem. It has contacts for all the problems. I have another one you could try.

I have two fresh ones that don't change the problem. Unless the ignition switch itself is bad or just needs cleaning. Something tells me that isn't the problem, though.

Yeah, meant the switch. let me know

[LogoMan]

Yes the key can be the problem. It has contacts for all the problems. I have another one you could try.

I have two fresh ones that don't change the problem. Unless the ignition switch itself is bad or just needs cleaning. Something tells me that isn't the problem, though.

Yeah, meant the switch. let me know

If you think that could be it, I'd pay for shipping here and back.

[cbrxxquad]

Yes the key can be the problem. It has contacts for all the problems. I have another one you could try.

I have two fresh ones that don't change the problem. Unless the ignition switch itself is bad or just needs cleaning. Something tells me that isn't the problem, though.

Yeah, meant the switch. let me know

If you think that could be it, I'd pay for shipping here and back.

Its a thing that needs to be eleminated so send me your addy and I will get it out to ya. Which one do you have the long key or short one?

[LogoMan]

Yes the key can be the problem. It has contacts for all the problems. I have another one you could try.

I have two fresh ones that don't change the problem. Unless the ignition switch itself is bad or just needs cleaning. Something tells me that isn't the problem, though.

Yeah, meant the switch. let me know

If you think that could be it, I'd pay for shipping here and back.

Its a thing that needs to be eleminated so send me your addy and I will get it out to ya. Which one do you have the long key or short one?

Let's hold off on that for the moment, Stan. I'm kinda doubtful that that's the problem. Rob (02 silverxx) may hop on down to my place next weekend and help troubleshoot this for me. Thanks, though! I'll keep you posted.

[mikesail]

When I pulled the back harness down, there were literally hundreds of redundant grounds, or splices. What I noticed, in mine, was that the wires themselves were just tarnished to hell. I even cut open some that I was re-grounding and they were tarnished quite a few inches into the insulation. Electricity travels across the surface of the wire, so I can only assume that the tarnish is at least contributing to my worries. Maybe that is also what is happening to yours.

.

Electricity does NOT travel on the surface for DC circuits. Your point is only valid for radio frequency circuits, nothing on the bike would be affected that way.

Bad tarnish might suggest a problem with any crimped connections however.

[mikesail]

Been working on the bike and can't seem to make headway. Cudgel has been a big help but can't solve these problems long distance.

The bike is stripped down so I can access all the wiring.

The bike will run perfectly - meaning no electrical issues - sometimes and then it will malfunction. I cannot find any shorts or ground problems.

This morning I started the bike up and everything was functioning normally. I let it cool down and rolled it out to the driveway so I could continue to fiddle with it and when I tried to start it the turn signals, headlights, tail lights, and fuel pump would not function. This is what it does. It either works fine or those things don't work and don't show any electricity getting to them. All the fuses are good.

I've never found any corrosion on any of the wires anywhere on the bike.

Could the ignition switch be faulty?

Could the ECM be faulty?

Or do I still have a ground or short issue somewhere?

Thanks for your help, guys!

From your first post >>>>noticed that pulling in the brake lever made the rear tail light go off and the rear flashers come on steady. The stop light bulb in the tail light is not working.

The front turn signals do not blink.

cudgel unscrewed the turn signal switch and we squirted alcohol into it, got some grit out, and lubed it with a WD40-type product. Reassembled it and noticed that now, with the turn signals "off", that pulling in the brake lever would kill the bike. We unhooked one of the brake lever wires so I could get home without stalling out.

>>>>>>

Randy, you are now describing a different sort of symptom. When you say that either everything works or it is dead, then things like the ignition switch or the main fuse ( do we have one? ) become the obvious culprits. The previous description of the bike shutting off when operating the brakes gives a very different suggestion of what is wrong.

Lets start over and describe the symptoms that you have now.

1. key on. what happens? does it either all work or nothing?

2. when it does run, does anything else happen that is unexpected?

I'm pretty sure your ECM cannot affect anything like this.

an ignition switch problem will only do what turning the key on and off could do, except for the possibility that the switch is intermittent in which case things might flicker instead of dying outright.

[LogoMan]

Been working on the bike and can't seem to make headway. Cudgel has been a big help but can't solve these problems long distance.

The bike is stripped down so I can access all the wiring.

The bike will run perfectly - meaning no electrical issues - sometimes and then it will malfunction. I cannot find any shorts or ground problems.

This morning I started the bike up and everything was functioning normally. I let it cool down and rolled it out to the driveway so I could continue to fiddle with it and when I tried to start it the turn signals, headlights, tail lights, and fuel pump would not function. This is what it does. It either works fine or those things don't work and don't show any electricity getting to them. All the fuses are good.

I've never found any corrosion on any of the wires anywhere on the bike.

Could the ignition switch be faulty?

Could the ECM be faulty?

Or do I still have a ground or short issue somewhere?

Thanks for your help, guys!

From your first post >>>>noticed that pulling in the brake lever made the rear tail light go off and the rear flashers come on steady. The stop light bulb in the tail light is not working.

The front turn signals do not blink.

cudgel unscrewed the turn signal switch and we squirted alcohol into it, got some grit out, and lubed it with a WD40-type product. Reassembled it and noticed that now, with the turn signals "off", that pulling in the brake lever would kill the bike. We unhooked one of the brake lever wires so I could get home without stalling out.

>>>>>>

Randy, you are now describing a different sort of symptom. When you say that either everything works or it is dead, then things like the ignition switch or the main fuse ( do we have one? ) become the obvious culprits. The previous description of the bike shutting off when operating the brakes gives a very different suggestion of what is wrong.

Lets start over and describe the symptoms that you have now.

1. key on. what happens? does it either all work or nothing?

2. when it does run, does anything else happen that is unexpected?

I'm pretty sure your ECM cannot affect anything like this.

an ignition switch problem will only do what turning the key on and off could do, except for the possibility that the switch is intermittent in which case things might flicker instead of dying outright.

1. Yes, it either works and I can't get it not to work no matter what I do, or it doesn't work and I can't get it to work no matter what I do. When it's not working here's what I see. On the instrument panel - both turn signal lights are on solid, FI and oil lights are on, and neutral light is on. The fuel pump isn't working, the turn signal flasher isn't working, the tail lights aren't working. I have the headlight off and the front turn signals off so I can't comment on those.

2. Not that I can tell.

I've checked all the fuses I can find - yes the one under the pink plug, too - and they are all fine.

[mikesail]

1. Yes, it either works and I can't get it not to work no matter what I do, or it doesn't work and I can't get it to work no matter what I do. When it's not working here's what I see. On the instrument panel - both turn signal lights are on solid, FI and oil lights are on, and neutral light is on. The fuel pump isn't working, the turn signal flasher isn't working, the tail lights aren't working. I have the headlight off and the front turn signals off so I can't comment on those.

2. Not that I can tell.

I've checked all the fuses I can find - yes the one under the pink plug, too - and they are all fine.

OK, lets continue. with the bike switch on, you see both turn signal indicators lit, right? And this is when it is NOT working, correct?

next, when it is NOT working,

1. what happens when you push the start button, tell me of any changes.

2. what happens when you select either turn signal?

After your reply, I'll try to look at the schematic and wiring harness on the race bike, see if I can direct this further.

[LogoMan]

Problem solved. It was a bad pin in a connector that sits inside the frame rail under the tank. It was as intermittent problem and a bugger to find, but Rob (02 SilverBird) finally tracked it down. He cut the wires and spliced some new wire and a spade connector in there. Should be fine now! Finally!

Thank you everyone for your help!