Hobicus Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 So... After my trip out West, I decided that it might help my Audiovox CCS 100 Cruise Control have better response if I installed a vacuum canister to store up vaccuum. I did the standard 2" PVC pipe routine, bought 2 caps, used PVC cement/etc and glued it shut, and then tapped in a nozzle for the vaccuum. I mounted the canister under the tank, held in place by a metal strap which goes around the canister and attached to the rear shock bolt. Where the vacuum line runs back to the CC, I cut the line and put in a T connector, and branched off to the new canister. From what I can tell, the CC was considerably more reponsive. Hitting accelerate, for example, kicks in NOW, and when you click Set and let go, it responded instantly However... I've noticed recently that when not on cruise control, there was a bit of a lag in the engine when you got on the throttle. Also, on more than one occasion, when I'd blip the trottle at idle, the engine would idle real low and on occasion die. I was not able to check the vacuum canister for leaks last night (it was a bit late and I didn't have any extra vacuum line laying around) but I will do that tonight. Since I wasn't sure if it was related to the vacuum canister or something else, I disconnected the vacuum canister last night, and had NO problems with it this morning on the way in to work. Granted, it wasn't that far of a ride, but usually it's enough for me to notice the problem. I'm wondering if there's something in the ECU which is dependent upon engine vacuum at RPM, or if the storage/lag in vacuum change when you get on the throttle (or blip it) is causing something to get out of whack. Any thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuXXtin Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 How long did it take for accelerate to kick in normally, before the pvc...? On my 1 ( ), test ride with mine, I am thinking I needed to press and hold Accel for about 3 seconds to get 1 mph change. Another thought, maybe if the VSS was hooked up, it will accelerate 1mph per button push vs. ~50rpm per 1sec of button push. (??) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobicus Posted July 23, 2008 Author Share Posted July 23, 2008 How long did it take for accelerate to kick in normally, before the pvc...? On my 1 ( ), test ride with mine, I am thinking I needed to press and hold Accel for about 3 seconds to get 1 mph change. Another thought, maybe if the VSS was hooked up, it will accelerate 1mph per button push vs. ~50rpm per 1sec of button push. (??) 3 secs for one MPH seems about right, but once it started actually accellerating, it picked up a bit faster. Was quite a bit faster with the canister. Don't have a VSS hookup.. I think that Philip tried to get that working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RXX Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 What the fuck is a VSS? Yeah, I can tell you though that the cruise control is NOT very responsive without the canister. It works, and is cool and all that, but I am glad to hear yours is doing better now with the can. I should install one also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuXXtin Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 VSS is the speed sensor wire hookups. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CxBXR Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Does it control the speed by the speedo ? Or is it purely mechanical only ? I have a throttlmeister & it is not always up to the task of holding a steady speed unless I downshift to keep the rev's up past 4K+. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuXXtin Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 Does it control the speed by the speedo ? You can decide. The servo unit has dip switches to set. Set by RPM only, or RPM and VSS. Iit needs the RPM at minimum because if there's a 'sudden change' in RPM, it'll disengage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RXX Posted July 23, 2008 Share Posted July 23, 2008 VSS is the speed sensor wire hookups. Oh, OK. I forgot. Yes, mine is hooked to that thing, since my Pro-oiler is tied to that also. Rich uses a Scott Oiler, so he wouldn't necessarily need the same electrical connections. It was an easy thing to do once the petrol tank is removed. For those of you with a Throttlemeister: They look cool (I have one on the bird) but they are SO inferior to a CC it is laughable. They are good only for solo cruising though, as I imagine the TM is. It is difficult to synchronize your speed to other bikes. IIRC, Rich led the way out west on CC........ I do know that I could not use mine to stay with him. It required a lot of fidgeting. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobicus Posted July 24, 2008 Author Share Posted July 24, 2008 VSS is the speed sensor wire hookups. Oh, OK. I forgot. Yes, mine is hooked to that thing, since my Pro-oiler is tied to that also. Rich uses a Scott Oiler, so he wouldn't necessarily need the same electrical connections. It was an easy thing to do once the petrol tank is removed. For those of you with a Throttlemeister: They look cool (I have one on the bird) but they are SO inferior to a CC it is laughable. They are good only for solo cruising though, as I imagine the TM is. It is difficult to synchronize your speed to other bikes. IIRC, Rich led the way out west on CC........ I do know that I could not use mine to stay with him. It required a lot of fidgeting. To sum up: If you don't hook the CC up to the VSS, you won't be able to return to the speed you were going regardless of what gear you're in. Otherwise it doesn't make much difference, as usually you're in top gear and the RPMs only are fine for a manual transmission Throttlemeister is good if you need to keep your speed for a bit while you adjust your gloves, etc... or in town where you need to go slower. It's OK on the interstate if you're by yourself, but the CC really rocks on the slab. Philip: It appears to me that your bike really has a need for the vacuum canister.. Mine, when I hit set, kicks in almost immediately.. yours takes forever. Back on topic: Has anyone else with EFI experienced any wierdness when they installed the vaccuum canister? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Eddy Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I believe (but could be way of base) RPM and vacuum are related. At lower RPM you will have less vacuum and could be causing this lag. maybe a smaller vacuum canister would solve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikesail Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 I don't have any comments about the CC, but I can easily see a problem with the cannister affecting the engine response. If the FPR or the MAP sensor is affected by the canister the engine cannot run correctly. Those devices (FPR and MAP ) need to see the real time manifold vacuum, if they see the stored vacuum in the cannister they mixture will be incorrect. I would suggest that you put a very small orifice between the vacuum cannister and the manifold tap, this will allow the sensors to have the instantaneous manifold pressure they need. A one way valve might also work as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Back on topic: Has anyone else with EFI experienced any wierdness when they installed the vaccuum canister? There's a lag when you hit the throttle and take away the engine vacuum because you basically just picked up a lot more intake volume in one cylinder, and the vacuum canister is taking away some of your incoming air on that one cylinder when you get in the gas. The bad part is, it's basically metered air (yes, I know we don't have a MAFS) and only in one cylinder, so you're getting rich in that cylinder compared to the rest... It's that the computer it counting on that air to go into the cylinder and some of it is going into the canister... Much like on a car, install a check valve, so the vacuum can pull air out of the canister, but not the other way around. I used a 3-way vacuum check valve from a car, so that I am taking vacuum from the vacuum line and that line only goes one way, but I have free use between the vacuum canister and the cruise control. Most cars have these on them already (because of what you're experiencing), and they're readily available at auto parts stores. You can use a 3-way check valve, or you can use a standard check valve and have a seperate line coming out of the canister going directly to the cruise control. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabinfever Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 So I have a question... On my VFR w/throttlemeister it does fine until I get to an uphill/downhill situation. The speed can vary quite a bit and on uphills my speed can drop 10mph or more. I attribute this to the 800cc's and 95hp. Do you notice anything like that on the bird with the cruise control? Now that Juxxtin has a CC, I need to step up to stay with the "cool" crowd. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 So I have a question... On my VFR w/throttlemeister it does fine until I get to an uphill/downhill situation. The speed can vary quite a bit and on uphills my speed can drop 10mph or more. I attribute this to the 800cc's and 95hp. Do you notice anything like that on the bird with the cruise control? Now that Juxxtin has a CC, I need to step up to stay with the "cool" crowd. Mine is actually the opposite... After the initial 2mph drop at the start of the hill, it goes 2mph faster than set going up and 1mph slower than set going down the hills. You might try changing the sensitivity setting on the CC, and add a vac canister if you don't already have one. With less power in the midrange, you're probably a bit short on vacuum, especially going up a hill when the vacuum goes down as the throttle opens farther. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 So I have a question... On my VFR w/throttlemeister it does fine until I get to an uphill/downhill situation. The speed can vary quite a bit and on uphills my speed can drop 10mph or more. I attribute this to the 800cc's and 95hp. Do you notice anything like that on the bird with the cruise control? Now that Juxxtin has a CC, I need to step up to stay with the "cool" crowd. Mine is actually the opposite... After the initial 2mph drop at the start of the hill, it goes 2mph faster than set going up and 1mph slower than set going down the hills. You might try changing the sensitivity setting on the CC, and add a vac canister if you don't already have one. With less power in the midrange, you're probably a bit short on vacuum, especially going up a hill when the vacuum goes down as the throttle opens farther. Mike I thought that would be a cable slack problem Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 So I have a question... On my VFR w/throttlemeister it does fine until I get to an uphill/downhill situation. The speed can vary quite a bit and on uphills my speed can drop 10mph or more. I attribute this to the 800cc's and 95hp. Do you notice anything like that on the bird with the cruise control? Now that Juxxtin has a CC, I need to step up to stay with the "cool" crowd. Sorry, I was on my Blackberry last night and missed the fact that you're talking about a throttle lock, not a real electronic/vacuum cruise control... Yes, the 10mph drop is normal. My 'bird would drop almost that much when I was using a throttle lock... I found that with the adjustment of the throttle lock being harder to do than just holding the throttle, even though it wasn't quite as constant, my hand/wrist/arm was just as sore as if I didn't use it at all... especially when riding on the highway with a group. I just went electronic/vacuum REAL cruise control so I could go half a tank between touching the throttle. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabinfever Posted July 26, 2008 Share Posted July 26, 2008 Sorry, I was on my Blackberry last night and missed the fact that you're talking about a throttle lock, not a real electronic/vacuum cruise control... Yes, the 10mph drop is normal. My 'bird would drop almost that much when I was using a throttle lock... I found that with the adjustment of the throttle lock being harder to do than just holding the throttle, even though it wasn't quite as constant, my hand/wrist/arm was just as sore as if I didn't use it at all... especially when riding on the highway with a group. I just went electronic/vacuum REAL cruise control so I could go half a tank between touching the throttle. Mike Thanks Mike, that is the answer I was looking for. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
haWHYnXX Posted July 27, 2008 Share Posted July 27, 2008 Much like on a car, install a check valve, so the vacuum can pull air out of the canister, but not the other way around. I used a 3-way vacuum check valve from a car, so that I am taking vacuum from the vacuum line and that line only goes one way, but I have free use between the vacuum canister and the cruise control. Most cars have these on them already (because of what you're experiencing), and they're readily available at auto parts stores. You can use a 3-way check valve, or you can use a standard check valve and have a seperate line coming out of the canister going directly to the cruise control. Mike +1 On mine I have 1 tapped vacuum line going into the canister through a 1-way check valve, and a second line going from the canister to the CCS. I'm still getting that same #11 FI fault code though (like at the WCB), and not positive it's not related to this CC install. Chris seems to think it has to do with the Pro-oiler since that is tapped to the VSS, but it seems to be more RPM related than speed related. Enough of MY canister weirdness - good luck with yours. I'm pretty sure though that if you don't have a check valve in there, that's the culprit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuXXtin Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 Rich, I changed my sprocket's out to 18/43 and now very noticeably have this lag both in activation and increase. Obviously because the less RPM in 6th gear. With stock sprockets, it was fine... not now! I picked up a 1-way check valve today and will get the PVC for cannister this week or so. To confirm, the check valve let's the air flow into the cannister and servo, but NOT back into the vacuum lines, correct? (Then the servo can steal from the cannister and engine at the same time; k, guess I'm just talking through this.) I need to step up to stay with the "cool" crowd. I'll help you install it, should be no prob on a VFR I would think..!! Seriously though, if you are going to keep the viffer and do some long distance, this thing is very nice to have Cabinfev.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 Rich, I changed my sprocket's out to 18/43 and now very noticeably have this lag both in activation and increase. Obviously because the less RPM in 6th gear. With stock sprockets, it was fine... not now! I picked up a 1-way check valve today and will get the PVC for cannister this week or so. Yep... less intake manifold vacuum from being at higher throttle/lower rpm. To confirm, the check valve let's the air flow into the cannister and servo, but NOT back into the vacuum lines, correct? (Then the servo can steal from the cannister and engine at the same time; k, guess I'm just talking through this.) No, the servo can only get air from the canister. If you use a 3-way valve, the third way is drawing air from the canister side of the check valve, just as if you had put a second barb on the canister. Unless you had (2) check valves, if you set it up so it sucks from both the canister and the vacuum line, it would empty the canister like you didn't have a check valve there, at all. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuXXtin Posted August 3, 2008 Share Posted August 3, 2008 No, the servo can only get air from the canister. If you use a 3-way valve, the third way is drawing air from the canister side of the check valve, just as if you had put a second barb on the canister. Unless you had (2) check valves, if you set it up so it sucks from both the canister and the vacuum line, it would empty the canister like you didn't have a check valve there, at all. I bought a 1-way valve that has 1 way in, through valve and comes out 2 ports. The ports 2 and 3 are free flowing between themselves. So I'm thinking engine to input 1, through check valve, feeds the aux cannister and the servo through output 2 and 3. Then when the servo is activated, it pulls from both the engine and the cannister since 2 and 3 are free flowing. Will that work? Thks Mike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted August 4, 2008 Share Posted August 4, 2008 No, the servo can only get air from the canister. If you use a 3-way valve, the third way is drawing air from the canister side of the check valve, just as if you had put a second barb on the canister. Unless you had (2) check valves, if you set it up so it sucks from both the canister and the vacuum line, it would empty the canister like you didn't have a check valve there, at all. I bought a 1-way valve that has 1 way in, through valve and comes out 2 ports. The ports 2 and 3 are free flowing between themselves. So I'm thinking engine to input 1, through check valve, feeds the aux cannister and the servo through output 2 and 3. Then when the servo is activated, it pulls from both the engine and the cannister since 2 and 3 are free flowing. Will that work? Thks Mike. Yes, that way will work... When you said it was pulling from both the canister and the engine, I thought you meant you had a tube coming from the engine to the servo, as well as a tube coming from the canister to the servo. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MileHi Posted August 5, 2008 Share Posted August 5, 2008 Rich, most of the Fudger and C14 guys have used vacuum from the #1 and 4 TBs... A T connects the two of them and off the T to the canister. The a line is run from the canister to the CC servo. This setup seems to provide the CC with good vacuum w/o affecting the TBs... Give it a try. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobicus Posted August 6, 2008 Author Share Posted August 6, 2008 Rich, most of the Fudger and C14 guys have used vacuum from the #1 and 4 TBs... A T connects the two of them and off the T to the canister. The a line is run from the canister to the CC servo. This setup seems to provide the CC with good vacuum w/o affecting the TBs... Give it a try. I actually get pretty good performance without the canister, so I've been somewhat slow in re-connecting it. I used it all the way to Pennsylvania weekend before last and had no issues with it. I was just trying to make it a bit more responsive is all. It appears I'm running out of farkles to add to this bike... FYI: I've got a separate tap into the vacuum between 3 and 4 where the line for my Scotoiler runs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuXXtin Posted August 18, 2008 Share Posted August 18, 2008 Have my cannister mostly installed... might have to get black zip ties... Should get the final lines routed and test drove in the next day or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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