Who's got the baddest handling Bird?

[Scated]

Ok, I'm really fighting the urge to sell the bird, like many of you, and buying a C-14. While it's an interesting idea I don't like the idea of gaining 100 pounds, keeping the same horsepower, and the truth is I wouldn't do it justice. A long day for me is 200 miles in the hill country around San Antonio. So... since most of my time is spent in the quest to find anywhere from one to three of the sisters, 337..., I think I probably just need to work on improving my skill on the bike and the bikes ability to excell at what I like doing.

I've read the posts so I know that folks change the springs in the forks, the weight of the oil, and possibly the valves up front. In the rear it's the Ohlins, the Penske, or the Wilburs. I do most of my own maintenance with the help of the local TSBA chapter but I don't want to go to the extrememe of a new front end.

I ride an '02 Silverbird that currently has 21K on it. I bought it last 4th of July with 12K. My riding is largely commuting with forrays into the hill country on the weekends. I'm 215 and I have done a 5mm shim and dropped the trees to 43mm above the top triple tree. No maintenance has been done to the forks or the shock besides spining the ring on the shock all the way up.

Ok, ok the questions:

1. Up front do I need to change the Springs? We measured the sag and it's pretty close but the compression is soft. If so what kind of Springs?

2. Is it worth doing the valves on the forks or is changing the weight of the oil enough? What weight?

3. Any other options up front?

4. In the rear, which one? Does anyone have a good combination that matches up well as far as balance between the front and back?

5. What else can be done within reason to make this handle a little more like a 750 in the hills, didn't want to get greedy and shoot for 600 handling?

I know this could get a little pricey but it might just be worth to have a bike that's almost perfect for what I want to do with less than 25K and paid off as opposed to another payment.

Thanks for the help!

[Scated]

Ok, I'm really fighting the urge to sell the bird, like many of you, and buying a C-14. While it's an interesting idea I don't like the idea of gaining 100 pounds, keeping the same horsepower, and the truth is I wouldn't do it justice. A long day for me is 200 miles in the hill country around San Antonio. So... since most of my time is spent in the quest to find anywhere from one to three of the sisters, 337..., I think I probably just need to work on improving my skill on the bike and the bikes ability to excell at what I like doing.

I've read the posts so I know that folks change the springs in the forks, the weight of the oil, and possibly the valves up front. In the rear it's the Ohlins, the Penske, or the Wilburs. I do most of my own maintenance with the help of the local TSBA chapter but I don't want to go to the extrememe of a new front end.

I ride an '02 Silverbird that currently has 21K on it. I bought it last 4th of July with 12K. My riding is largely commuting with forrays into the hill country on the weekends. I'm 215 and I have done a 5mm shim and dropped the trees to 43mm above the top triple tree. No maintenance has been done to the forks or the shock besides spining the ring on the shock all the way up.

Ok, ok the questions:

1. Up front do I need to change the Springs? We measured the sag and it's pretty close but the compression is soft. If so what kind of Springs?

2. Is it worth doing the valves on the forks or is changing the weight of the oil enough? What weight?

3. Any other options up front?

4. In the rear, which one? Does anyone have a good combination that matches up well as far as balance between the front and back?

5. What else can be done within reason to make this handle a little more like a 750 in the hills, didn't want to get greedy and shoot for 600 handling?

I know this could get a little pricey but it might just be worth to have a bike that's almost perfect for what I want to do with less than 25K and paid off as opposed to another payment.

Thanks for the help!

Here's what I like to do and for those of you coming to TEXXT here's what you have to look forward to...

[exskibum]

On my '03, the first three via Group Buys from here: Traxxion AK-20 kit up front -- cartridge with valving and adjusters for preload and rebound damping fine tuning, as well as stiffer springs matched to weight and riding style.

Penske in the rear -- spring and shock matched to weight and riding style. (8981?? -- too lazy to check)

Carozzerria wheels -- 3.5 lb savings up front, 5 lb savings in rear (all of which is unsprung rotating weight).

Micron 4-2-1 with carbon fiber can -- about 15 lb savings less the minimal added weight of the PCIII to get the most benefit out of the system.

Brand new set of Michelin Pilot Powers on her right now -- Birdie enjoys the twisties of the Sierras and Sierra foothills where she lives and gets to play.

[bartonmd]

I wouldn't say I've got the baddest handling 'bird, but it does handle VERY well compared to the others I've ridden (though, I've not ridden any with aftermarket wheels)... I have done the following:

- 6mm shim on rear shock - raises the rear end ~1" because of the shock linkage - $2.00

- Front Race-Tech springs (for your weight, check racetech.com) and 5W Honda oil - $120 for springs and oil

- Heli-bars - These are farther out, and at a better angle, so you get a TON more leverage than stock - My bike came with them in a box, but I Think they're like $239 or something

The things above were a HUGE improvement over stock as far as front end feel and getting the bike from side to side.

Somewhere in the middle, I put in the All-Balls tapered steering head bearings, and they are VERY awesome! Do a search, but DEFINATELY worth a couple hours of install time and the $40 for the bearings!

- Race-Tech Gold valves, both compression and rebound - $290 for both, and I already had the matching springs from above.

- Ohlins rear shock plus FREE re-spring for correct weight - $850

As much as I cheaped out for 40k miles, and hem-haw'd around it, I really should have done the bottom 2 sooner. The top 3 mods made it "decent" but the bottom 2 made it WONDERFUL! I've said it before, but it didn't cost me $1200 for this bike... It cost me $1200 for every bike I own from here out, because I will NOT go back to stock suspension on a sport/sport-touring bike!

Mike

[jcrich]

This is a tough discussion with the XX, since the front has no adjustment built in. You can go the expensive route ( AK20 cartridges) in the front to just changing springs and oil. The rear shock, again, expensive ( Ohlins or Penske adjustables) to a little less expensive ( Penske Sport shock). A member that does not frequent the board often anymore ( G2) did a lot of tinkering with the front end of different years of XXs. What he found was the fork internals of the 97-98 models were different than the subsequent year models. He noticed that the stock valve orifices on the 97-98s were larger and oriented slightly differently than the other years. He has a 01 and went the Gold valve route. I had a 97 and what we did on mine was retain the stock valving, but removed I believe 2 shims from compression stack and 1 from the rebound stack, or could have been the opposite, it was a few years ago. I put Traxxion Dynamics 1.0Kg springs in. We tried 5 wt. fork oil initially, while it was great on the highway, it was way too bouncy in curves. We switched it back to stock 10 wt. and that worked great. He said the after riding his bike and mine, he found mine to be much more compliant in the front end, even compared to his bike with the Racetech stuff. As for the rear, I had a Penske Sport shock ( no remote adjuster) installed. I did not ride 2 up or do track days on the XX so this shock was more than adequate. It is about 2 -3 hundred cheaper than the next step in the Penske line and a bit more cheaper than the Ohlins. Traxxion springs were $100 and the shock also from Traxxion was $575 at the time, not sure what it goes for now. All this being said, the bike handled so much better than stock, did not porpoise in corners and straight line was very smooth. YMMV

[Redbird]

1. Up front do I need to change the Springs? We measured the sag and it's pretty close but the compression is soft. If so what kind of Springs?

How much do you weigh? If you think the compression is soft you're probably just about the only one- most find it overdamped and harsh, which is why a move to lighter weight fork oil is popular with stock valving.

2. Is it worth doing the valves on the forks or is changing the weight of the oil enough? What weight?

I never did my valves, but even so I'm going to go ahead and say yes, it's worth it. Lighter weight oil does help quite a bit in conjuction with heavier springs if you're anywhere near 200lbs. BTW, when I say "do the valves, I'm not necessarily refering to replacing them with Racetech or Traxxion units. Any compentent suspension shop can revalve your forks without the signifigant added parts expense of either of those two options.

3. Any other options up front?

Have them rebuilt by a suspension shop. Probably the route I would have gone if I had ever gotten around to it.

4. In the rear, which one? Does anyone have a good combination that matches up well as far as balance between the front and back?

Ohlins and Penske seem to be the most popular choices, can't go wrong with either. Make sure you get it sprung for your weight.

5. What else can be done within reason to make this handle a little more like a 750 in the hills, didn't want to get greedy and shoot for 600 handling?

Sorry, even 750 handling is a dream. You could spend thousands on the suspenders and it's still going to weigh well over 500lbs and have the wheelbase the GT bike that it is.

I know this could get a little pricey but it might just be worth to have a bike that's almost perfect for what I want to do with less than 25K and paid off as opposed to another payment.

You could probably spend under 1k and get pretty good results. You could also pony up the $ for wheels (big improvement there) and go whole hog on the suspension and get up in the 3k range. Or you could drop that extra 2k on a track school and some track days. Seriously, I've seen guys on stock suspended XXs absolutely haul ass, it's not that bad and a good rider (better than me) can make it work.

[gourmet]

I've a 2000 with the Ohlins done and the Racetec Gold Valves for rebound and compression up front. These two things helped immensely with stability in corners at high rates of speed. I have also lowered the triple trees to 43 mm to circlip and raised the clip ons to sitting just above the notch.

It felt good in the twisties but the latest thing I did was a full TiForce exhaust whihc really lightens the bird and makes it feel easier to toss around. I haven't weighed the parts to be exact but I would say one OEM can weighs as much or more than the entire TiForce system. Having seen the difference the weight makes I am now seriously considering the Carozzeria wheels for the unsprung weight savings.

Having had mine since new and now with 67000 km on it I thought about buying a new bike like the C14 or FJR but I realized not only is it cheaper to improve the bird to what I want but it also doesn't make sense for me to go to a heavier bike. I have taken some track courses and love the twisties so a heavier bike is out and a repliracer is out since I am getting old and the joints don't work as well so that leaves lightening up the bird some more.

Good luck,

Brian

[Scated]

I've a 2000 with the Ohlins done and the Racetec Gold Valves for rebound and compression up front. These two things helped immensely with stability in corners at high rates of speed. I have also lowered the triple trees to 43 mm to circlip and raised the clip ons to sitting just above the notch.

It felt good in the twisties but the latest thing I did was a full TiForce exhaust whihc really lightens the bird and makes it feel easier to toss around. I haven't weighed the parts to be exact but I would say one OEM can weighs as much or more than the entire TiForce system. Having seen the difference the weight makes I am now seriously considering the Carozzeria wheels for the unsprung weight savings.

Having had mine since new and now with 67000 km on it I thought about buying a new bike like the C14 or FJR but I realized not only is it cheaper to improve the bird to what I want but it also doesn't make sense for me to go to a heavier bike. I have taken some track courses and love the twisties so a heavier bike is out and a repliracer is out since I am getting old and the joints don't work as well so that leaves lightening up the bird some more.

Good luck,

Brian

That's why I love this site! Great info. So if I do the valves upfront for compression and rebound adjustability is there a way to make it remotely adjustable? The JAWS caps? I know about unsprung wieght but I hadn't considered it a factor in the handling. Does it just make for easier braking and stronger acceleration off the corner or is there a difference in turn in and stability?

Ok, you spoke about the clip ons just above the notch. I'm confused? Like I said I pushed the tubes up through the top clamp and it's 43mm from the top of the tube to the deck of the top clamp. I have helibars and they are sitting flush against the triple clamp. Is there an advantage to pulling the helbars up on the fork tubes so they set above the triple clamp?

The forks, looks like I have two options: 1)Traxion cartridge rebuild or 2)Springs, valves, oil weight, and rebuild. Which one would you do and what is the price difference?

Thanks again!

[bartonmd]

It's up to you , what you do, but the Gold valves (or similar valving by a shop with your stock valves) will run you likr $400 with the springs, and the AK-20's if I recall, were like $1200 group buy price... I'm sure the AK-20's are better, being a gas shock (like an aftermarket rear shock) inside the fork, instead of am emulsion type valving system like stock, but I couldn't see spending the EXTRA $800 for the little bit of extra awesomeness...

Mike

[jcrich]

1.) So if I do the valves upfront for compression and rebound adjustability is there a way to make it remotely adjustable?

2.)The JAWS caps?

1.) No, they are not remotely adjustable.

2.) The caps allow for pre-load adjustment only, has nothing to do with compression and rebound

[MrBadExxample]

Installing racetech rebound & compression valves will not make it adjustable. If a fully adjustable front end is what you desire consider a full front end swap. I think some folks have swapped a RC51 or Hayabusa front end.

[HANKSXXX]

I tried the RaceTech compression and rebound valves and then changed to a set of Penske Supersport valves. I thought the Penske was a bit better, although I didn't try to redo the shim stack on the Racetechs. Ohlins also makes valves for these forks, but I never tried them. Still playing with 1.0 springs and Hyperpro springs. I also used a set of Suzuki 1200 Bandit fork caps, which are a direct replacement and allow for preload adjustment. Finally, a triple adjustable rear shock from Cogent Dynamics, if Rick ever gets off his ass and builds the damned thing....Hank

[XXTi]

I have a Penske 8981 shock and Jaws +100mm 1.05kg/mm fork springs. I'm running 10wt Silkolene Race fork oil. I've also been running Pilot Powers for the past few sets of tires. I don't know how "bad" the set-up is, but come on out and run some twisties with me sometime and see for yourself.

[Scated]

I have a Penske 8981 shock and Jaws +100mm 1.05kg/mm fork springs. I'm running 10wt Silkolene Race fork oil. I've also been running Pilot Powers for the past few sets of tires. I don't know how "bad" the set-up is, but come on out and run some twisties with me sometime and see for yourself.

"Bad", "Hot", "Cool", "Phat" we're a KFC commercial and dating ourselves at the same time. Oh, I forgot "rad" and "awesome"! You're 16 years my senior and I don't need to be getting my ass kicked by a senior citizen. Come on down to SA and we can play. Are there twisties in Bixby? I thought one could see the curvature of the earth out there?

[XXTi]

You can't quite see the curvature of the earth here. We're only about 50 miles from the Ozark Mountains. There are plenty of great roads in NE Oklahoma and NW Arkansas.

Don't let a poor old decrepit fat man worry you. You set the pace and I'll do my best to try and keep up. Where is SA?

[Scated]

You can't quite see the curvature of the earth here. We're only about 50 miles from the Ozark Mountains. There are plenty of great roads in NE Oklahoma and NW Arkansas.

Don't let a poor old decrepit fat man worry you. You set the pace and I'll do my best to try and keep up. Where is SA?

I'm out near Helotes circa Sea World. We run the hill country before breakfast. C'mon down anytime. Anytime except TEXXT for me though. I'll be in San Diego for about a month but I'll be back in November. Duane, FltMdc, lives a few miles from here.

[cbrbear]

Well here is the REAL deal. Not to brag but I would have to say that I have the baddest handling bird. She hasnt been tested yet but I have Ohlins road and track front forks, ohlins rear shock 6mm spacer for ride height, ohlins/scotts steering damper, dymag carbon fiber wheels. There aint much more you can do to the bird other than start hacking up the bike. Got carbon fiber and fiberglass body work... replaced front and rear brake calipers with standard 4 pot front and standard honda sport bike floating 1 pot rear.

[Scated]

Well here is the REAL deal. Not to brag but I would have to say that I have the baddest handling bird. She hasnt been tested yet but I have Ohlins road and track front forks, ohlins rear shock 6mm spacer for ride height, ohlins/scotts steering damper, dymag carbon fiber wheels. There aint much more you can do to the bird other than start hacking up the bike. Got carbon fiber and fiberglass body work... replaced front and rear brake calipers with standard 4 pot front and standard honda sport bike floating 1 pot rear.

I don't think that could have been orchestrated any better. I'll take a closer look when I get there. I'd like to see some pics. What made you decide to go with the Ohlins road and track front fork and how much was that gem? Tell me about the wheels.... I asked this earlier, how does it affect the handling as opposed to braking and acceleration? Sounds like you may have to wait up for me at Dudley's.

[exskibum]

Well, shit, boys . . .

I guess it's time to actually answer Scated's question. Redbird, FliteMedic, oh shit, too many others . . . attended TBME and drooled or jacked off over it. (Ok -- I jacked off over it, too. So what?) Too bad you can't also see what said XX and its owner did to a front Michelin Pilot Power in exceeding the speed limits in 140+ miles of twisties with the likes of Randy, Robin, Jeff and the midget from San Diego County with some of the largest testicles on record¹. On this site, though he seldom participates, there is a gentleman from San Jose, CA who has THE baddest handling Bird, name is Howie, and he can scrub the shoulders off his 01's nearly new Pilot Powers in just a few sortees across Hwy 36 and its environs.

Do a search for TBME (June 9, 2006 west coast meet in Red Bluff, CA), and you're bound to find pics of Howie's bike (he goes by "xrdracer" which means exactly what it seems to mean). It's a red '01 with an RC51 grafted-on front suspension, a $2,500 TSR (??) racing swing arm, MANY more cool, expensive and weight or handling tricks, and more examples of racing performance/functional bling (but nothing extreme done for more power) than you will find elsewhere on this site, I suspect. It is the equivalent of Chris's and Forest's extreme/reliable uber-power-output engines in the suspension and cool engineering division.

Testify with me, brothers who have seen this specimen at arms length!

¹Paulie, of course: the "brass balled monkey" of a LIDAR recorded 188 mph, IIRC.

[cbrbear]

Well here is the REAL deal. Not to brag but I would have to say that I have the baddest handling bird. She hasnt been tested yet but I have Ohlins road and track front forks, ohlins rear shock 6mm spacer for ride height, ohlins/scotts steering damper, dymag carbon fiber wheels. There aint much more you can do to the bird other than start hacking up the bike. Got carbon fiber and fiberglass body work... replaced front and rear brake calipers with standard 4 pot front and standard honda sport bike floating 1 pot rear.

I don't think that could have been orchestrated any better. I'll take a closer look when I get there. I'd like to see some pics. What made you decide to go with the Ohlins road and track front fork and how much was that gem? Tell me about the wheels.... I asked this earlier, how does it affect the handling as opposed to braking and acceleration? Sounds like you may have to wait up for me at Dudley's.

I bought the bike with race tech done front and rear. I added pre load caps to the forks and wasnt impressed with the handling. Thought about traxxion forks and a penske, ohlins, or other rear shocks and decided to just go with ohlins. Both of my ducatis have ohlins all around and I am pleased with them so I went with the R&T forks and rear ohlins shock. Also got the ohlins radial style damper like the scotts. Forks were 2500 then had to buy the 4 pot calipers which was another 100 from england (ebay parting out CB1300) then got the rear caliper same way for 50. Rear shock was 840, and damper with bracket was 600. Dymags were almost 5k for the 3 spoke carbon fiber. Gilles rear sets and vario bars, abe petal front rotors and galfer rear rotor, lots of gold accents. Still putting the bike back together with the new bodywork and awaiting a few parts as I am trying to determine how I want to do the controls Thinking of using a choke set up from a 900RR and getting rid of the left controls, replacing it with a newer model that has no choke lever and has the passing light switch, also replacing right controls with start/stop/kill switch from a 900RR and going with an active quick race throttle set up. Got lots of goodies just need to finish it. Thinking of powdercoating the swingarm to match the frame. Still have to finish the arm, got a spare that I am working on changing the adjusters to those of a newer RR so I can add gilles adjusters and spools.

[spoot]

In my experience, I thought the stock forks were very soft and I could almost bottom out under heavy breaking.

I got racetech springs and valves and heavier oil. I also added the preload adjusters. It was worth the money! I ride the bird in a sporty-touring fasion - even did a trackday last month. The new fork work was great.

next I will be adding the rear shim and someday a rear shock...but the front to was paramount to "fix"

[exskibum]

In my experience, I thought the stock forks were very soft and I could almost bottom out under heavy breaking.

+1

[XXTi]

I have to agree that Howie probably has the nicest XX with the most suspension mods I've ever seen. I haven't seen him ride it, but I'll bet he can really skin it.

[Crazy Dave]

And I thought the baddest handling Bird was the one with the 400# woman on the pillion!!