Charging system output question

[HANKSXXX]

Looking for some real numbers.

I think I read that the charging system of the FI BB's puts out more watts than the carbed one's.

Anyone have the specs?

Thanks, Hank

[rockmeupto125]

"The stator was increased in size from 390 to 460 watts to accommodate the increased load of the fuel injection."

[HANKSXXX]

"The stator was increased in size from 390 to 460 watts to accommodate the increased load of the fuel injection."

Joe, where did that quote come from?

I was thinking about upgrading my charging system and got in touch with Rick at Ricks Motorsport

Electrics. He claims both generation stators are identical in all respects except for the

configuration of the connector. His guess was that stronger magnets were used on the rotor of

the FI bikes. The rotors do have different part #'s too.

Hank

[rockmeupto125]

LOL...it came from my "differences" post in the Important threads section.

And I don't have a clue where I got the information from. I can only tell you that if I didn't have the parts in front of me or know how to compare them, I had some reference that I felt was reliable enough to steal the information from.

So if you've got newer/better information, we'll all be smarter!

[rockmeupto125]

The 1997 factory service manual states that the alternator capacity is 0.39 kw@5000rpm.

The 1999 factory service manual states that the alternator capacity is 0.46 kw@5000rpm.

[HANKSXXX]

The 1997 factory service manual states that the alternator capacity is 0.39 kw@5000rpm.

The 1999 factory service manual states that the alternator capacity is 0.46 kw@5000rpm.

Well, thanks for that...

The question remains which part (or both) increased the output... :icon_wall:

Happen to have a late model rotor lying around?

I'd invest a gasket and some time to R&R mine to check.

[rockmeupto125]

Happen to have a late model rotor lying around?

Now what do YOU think?

Actually, not only do I have some lying around, I have some already installed.

Why don'tcha take a drive up here and we'll test 'em out?

[HANKSXXX]

Happen to have a late model rotor lying around?

Now what do YOU think?

Actually, not only do I have some lying around, I have some already installed.

Why don'tcha take a drive up here and we'll test 'em out?

I shoulda known...

Got a gasket too?

To late today...

What town do you live in?

There is a town near you, isn't there?

LOL

My problem is with heated gear. Since I have the electric fuel pump for the turbo setup, I'm using more power than normal anyhow. When I plug in my heated liner, the volt meter pulses with the on-off of the temp control. When I add the heated gloves, it really starts to pulse. I just don't want to be a couple hundred miles from home and burn something out...again.

[rockmeupto125]

I'm lost here.

Comparing early and late (carbed and injected) stators, I cannot find any difference other than the lead length and the plug configuration.

They are physically identical in every measurable aspect. Resistance between each terminal varies between 0.72 and 0.78 ohms.

I can only assume that the difference in part numbers is only due to the different lead length and plug. There's no evidence of a greater number of windings in size of the coils or in measured differences in resistance.

Comparing early and late (carbed and injected) rotors, I cannot find any difference other than the manufacturer's part numbers stamped into the casing.

Early models -- 037000-3801 10RV Denso Japan was on both of the two early model rotors I have.

Late models -- I couldn't stand it and pulled the cover off one of my injected bikes (dammit, who's got a gasket?). 037000-4462 12TZ Denso Japan

Although there is a difference in the manufacturer and the Honda part numbers, there is no measurable or observable difference in the early and late model rotors. The OD, ID, depth, and wall thickness are the same. In each, there are 4 groups of 5 holes around the circumference through the depth of the wall, in other words, parallel with the crankshaft. The holes are about 2.5mm diameter. Think of 24 equally spaced holes around the perimeter, like numbers on a clockface.....except every 6th one is missing so that the groups of five are separated by one missing "space." In each hole is something that does not match the remainder of the body of the rotor in color. A ferrous metal held near the rotor will pull toward these areas, so its conceivable that these are the magnets. The diameter and number are the same on the early and later rotors, but I cannot tell how deep they are.

In the absence of a gaussmeter, I tried to compare the magnetism of each rotor by tying a small nut on a string, placing it on the rotor in the 12 o'clock position, and pulling it downward slowly until its weight exceeded the magnetic pull and it dropped. After several attempts, even with this crude method there was no statistically relevant difference in the magnetic attraction of the nut to either early or late rotor.

There are no wires, plugs, or differences in mounting that would necessitate a different part number. The starter clutch and accessories that interface with the rotor are the same for ALL the years, indicating identical physical characteristics as far as fitment.

So...............................WTF....over? Why is one of these systems supposed to be a 29 amp alternator at 12.5 volts, and the other 35 amps?

[HANKSXXX]

Welcome to MY world...LOL

Perhaps if we had a member here (Scott) who worked at a Honda franchised dealership (in Roanoke), he could make a call to Honda's tech line for some enlightenment.

Or is that taking the easy way out?

Thank you Joe, for going the extra mile.

[cbrxxquad]

two of the rotors I have out,,, are the early numbers, and I know one was in an injected bike,,,Dang, all boxed up for Hank too. Guess I need to pull the covers off one of the two other motors.....bummer.

I was thinking the stators were different in the number of coils on them, and was the reason there was a difference in the output. Humm do I have both....

[rockmeupto125]

The four examples I have of the two different plugged stators are 18 coils and weigh between 2lb 9.5 and 2lb 9.8 oz.

[HANKSXXX]

two of the rotors I have out,,, are the early numbers, and I know one was in an injected bike,,,Dang, all boxed up for Hank too. Guess I need to pull the covers off one of the two other motors.....bummer.

I was thinking the stators were different in the number of coils on them, and was the reason there was a difference in the output. Humm do I have both....

Think Joe has that covered Stan...

[Hobicus]

Silly question:

Rick's Electrics makes a replacement stator for the 97-98

http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/pr...25DQlIxMTAwWFg=

And for the 99+ model years it's a different part:

http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/pr...25DQlIxMTAwWFg=

I wonder if they'd know something about it?

Maybe I'll email them.

[rockmeupto125]

I was thinking about upgrading my charging system and got in touch with Rick at Ricks Motorsport

Electrics. He claims both generation stators are identical in all respects except for the

configuration of the connector. His guess was that stronger magnets were used on the rotor of

the FI bikes. The rotors do have different part #'s too.

Hank

[Hobicus]

Reading comprehension = fail.

[HANKSXXX]

After searching around a bit, I found a video from ElectroSport that says their high output stators are wound with a thicker wire which decreases resistance and increases output about 20%.

The coils are also sealed in epoxy. Reg/Rec sells the same one. Any history with either brand?

Any chance Honda did the same thing, in spite of what Rick said?

[rockmeupto125]

After searching around a bit, I found a video from ElectroSport that says their high output stators are wound with a thicker wire which decreases resistance and increases output about 20%.

The coils are also sealed in epoxy. Reg/Rec sells the same one. Any history with either brand?

Any chance Honda did the same thing, in spite of what Rick said?

It would weigh more, eh?

[HANKSXXX]

After searching around a bit, I found a video from ElectroSport that says their high output stators are wound with a thicker wire which decreases resistance and increases output about 20%.

The coils are also sealed in epoxy. Reg/Rec sells the same one. Any history with either brand?

Any chance Honda did the same thing, in spite of what Rick said?

It would weigh more, eh?

Thicker wire but less length, eh?

The area around the coils is very tight so I would guess you would give up one to get the other.

How that would play into output is beyond me...

[jrdxx]

I would suggest investigating whether the part number for the FI bird is different than the part number for the carbed version. I thought alternators were similar to AC motors in that they had no permanent magnets (as compared to DC motors), and the AC output from the alternator is regulated by a DC voltage supplied from the regulator side of the regulator/rectifier. An increased input signal voltage from the regulator/rectifier would correlate to an increased output from the alternator.

[rockmeupto125]

To summarize so far:

The early/late stators have different part numbers. This could be for as simple a reason as the different length lead and plug. The stator body appears identical, and the only measurements I can make are the resistance between terminals and the weight of the stator. Both measurements are the same for every stator that I measured, early or late. There is reasonable possibility that the stators are the same.

The early/late rotors have different part numbers. There is no obvious physical difference. I can measure the magnetic pull of the rotor only in a very crude fashion, but repeated testing shows no consistent difference in the magnetic force of the early/late rotors. The parts that attach and interface with the rotor have only one part number across all the years of XX production.

The stators have an obvious reason for different part numbers. The rotors do not....they appear identical and interface with the same parts across the production timeline. And while what comparisons I can make show no dissimilarities between early and late rotors, the fact that they have different part numbers with no obvious differences lead me to theorize that the difference in the charging system is indeed the rotor.

I have NOT had an opportunity to pull a late model rotor and weigh it.

We know that members have replaced the early model stator with a later stator, and merely switched the plugs. What we don't know is if they had any quantifiable means of checking the comparitive output before and after. Indeed, all these swaps that I'm aware of were precipitated by stator failure.

[RodeRash]

That's one of the disadvantages of having a bike that did not sell all that well.

Rick's sells a high output stator for the Hayabusa.

Rick’s Motorsport Electrics is proud to offer a new high output kit for the Hayabusa’s. The kit features a large casting, 40 amp rectifier/regulator and a new high output stator. The rectifier regulator is a large casting design that dissipates the heat to prevent burnouts. It also regulates stators of 40 amps of power, making it the perfect match to Rick’s high output stator.

The Hayabusa stator has been field tested to deliver 25% more wattage than stock. Original equipment Hayabusa stators provide approximately 400 watts of power while maintaining about 13.5 – 15.0 volts.

The Rick’s Motorsport Electrics’ high output stator provides slightly over 500 watts of power at the same voltage. This equates to a 25% improvement over stock.

[mikesail]

I would suggest investigating whether the part number for the FI bird is different than the part number for the carbed version. I thought alternators were similar to AC motors in that they had no permanent magnets (as compared to DC motors), and the AC output from the alternator is regulated by a DC voltage supplied from the regulator side of the regulator/rectifier. An increased input signal voltage from the regulator/rectifier would correlate to an increased output from the alternator.

Alternators for most cars do not have permanent magnets, but that is not a necessary distinction. My first statement would be that an alternator does not use brushes to commutate the alternating voltage output, but uses diodes if DC is needed.

Whether a motor or generator uses a permanent magnet or a electromagnet ( as in the field coil ) does not change the alternator/generator distinction. The Bird system does not have any feedback to the alternator from the regulator.

What is important to our bikes version of an alternator is three components. First the magnet in the rotor determines the magnetic field strength which then determines how much current can flow in the nearby coil. Second the coil in the stator has a wire gauge which sets a safe limit for current flow, and a number of turns which determines the voltage ( for a given RPM ).

For our stator you could wind it with a heavier gauge wire for more current capability, but you would need more RPM's before you started charging. So there is a tradeoff there. Finally there is the R/R unit, which first rectifies the AC from the stator, and next clamps the voltage to the desired charging level. It is important to understand that the regulator functions by shorting out the stator coil when the voltage exceeds the desired level, this is a fundamental weakness of this sort of system. This is ( in my opinion ) why we see so many blown R/R's, stators and connectors, it is not the bike electrical load but rather the regulator momentary shorting that occurs with high RPM's.

Joe, is it possibly true that the new higher power spec coincides with the new finned R/R ? That would be my guess, that the limiting factor is the diodes heating in the RR and thus the finned unit can handle more current.