cbrxxquad Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I was approched by a fellow in Montrose, that claimed to know how to prevent a cct from failing. His decription was that the end of the screw was mated to an aluminum shelf that would wear. And the simple mill and replacement with a steel washer would prevent it from ever faliing again. So to determin what he was saying, Evlxx having a x-11 new, and I with a double green dot, new, as well as a stock one with 20,000 miles on it, disected them all to see what I could see, for a final word on this, I hope. First the outside of the x-11 and double green dot show to be different from the stock in that the flats on the shaft are turned 1/4 turn. The x-11 has a bigger head of the screw than the others. They all have the same otherwise. 7 turns in the spring to lock 5 turns in the screw mounted 7 total turnes in the screw 6 turnes will give some pre-load to the spring Wear in the end shelf is due to the spring setting on the screw shelf. Should be under cut the slot for the spring to be below the load that the screw boss should exert on the shelf. Threads should be lubricated with a grease or paste as nothing gets in to lube them. . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted October 2, 2009 Share Posted October 2, 2009 I was approched by a fellow in Montrose, that claimed to know how to prevent a cct from failing. His decription was that the end of the screw was mated to an aluminum shelf that would wear. And the simple mill and replacement with a steel washer would prevent it from ever faliing again. So to determin what he was saying, Evlxx having a x-11 new, and I with a double green dot, new, as well as a stock one with 20,000 miles on it, disected them all to see what I could see, for a final word on this, I hope. First the outside of the x-11 and double green dot show to be different from the stock in that the flats on the shaft are turned 1/4 turn. The x-11 has a bigger head of the screw than the others. They all have the same otherwise. 7 turns in the spring to lock 5 turns in the screw mounted 7 total turnes in the screw 6 turnes will give some pre-load to the spring Wear in the end shelf is due to the spring setting on the screw shelf. Should be under cut the slot for the spring to be below the load that the screw boss should exert on the shelf. Threads should be lubricated with a grease or paste as nothing gets in to lube them. So..... I looked at all of your photos, and have to say it's hard to tell, what your talking about and or what the guy in Montrose was talking about.... Basically I'm saying I would have loved to be there and see the dismantling, and to get my hands on it. My thoughts, 1.Maybe you should use the Macro button on your camera when taking close up shots, maybe you are, but tthe photos look blurry up close. 2. I am assuming you have it figured out, although I noticed you didn't mention anything about a washer and the end play, in your decription of the modifications needed. 3.You also failed to mention how much your going to charge to modify a new unit, into a permenantly fixxed unit, or should I say a extended lifespan unit ? So, now what are you going to do ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted October 2, 2009 Author Share Posted October 2, 2009 Well, yes that is on macro, and they should blow up, but I did reduce them 10% and they went from 7 meg to about 300k. So I might go back and just get them down to 2 meg each. First, When I put mine back together, I cut a slot in the screw, for the wire to recess. Doped up the threads with moly paste and did the turn preload and reinstalled. No noise, now. On the x11 don't think there is a way,(he others you could) put the washer to make it have a surface of steel. But, to get what it does, it is not the surface,,,it's the wire that gouges the surface. If you take a hack saw, and cut it a little, for the wire to set in, then the screw sets flush with the surface and does not have a problem. What I am thinking, is that the wire cuts into the aluminum, and stops the screw from being able to turn. Vibration causes it. But, if the wire is below the surface then you have much more support and no wear on the wire either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 1. I'm guessing that when you reduce the photo's then, the format is being changed, and the quality is going to pot with it. Because a 10% reduction should not cause that much of a image loss, nor should it cause you file to go from 7 megs all the way down too 300 Kb. That's more like a 90% reduction. Oh well that's beside the point, and the last picture you posted was much better anyhow. 2.Well, it's good to hear that you figured out what is wearing out on the stock units, and it'll be interesting to see how long the repair lasts. 3. I guess, if there's noting you can do to the X-11 unit, then..... I can't wait to get it back, so that I can take out my stock unit, and disassemble it. I'm just itching to have some fun too.. you know. 4. So in your opinion, is the Double green Dot, any better than the stock unit ? .... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 1. I'm guessing that when you reduce the photo's then, the format is being changed, and the quality is going to pot with it. Because a 10% reduction should not cause that much of a image loss, nor should it cause you file to go from 7 megs all the way down too 300 Kb. That's more like a 90% reduction. Oh well that's beside the point, and the last picture you posted was much better anyhow. 2.Well, it's good to hear that you figured out what is wearing out on the stock units, and it'll be interesting to see how long the repair lasts. 3. I guess, if there's noting you can do to the X-11 unit, then..... I can't wait to get it back, so that I can take out my stock unit, and disassemble it. I'm just itching to have some fun too.. you know. 4. So in your opinion, is the Double green Dot, any better than the stock unit ? .... Looks like the rotation of the flats is all the difference in them. Doing the cut to the slot of the screw end would still work on the x11. All of them for that matter. So your saying I can't cut your x11... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 I believe I was confused here.... On the x11 don't think there is a way,(he others you could) put the washer to make it have a surface of steel. But, to get what it does, it is not the surface,,,it's the wire that gouges the surface. If you take a hack saw, and cut it a little, for the wire to set in, then the screw sets flush with the surface and does not have a problem. What I am thinking, is that the wire cuts into the aluminum, and stops the screw from being able to turn. Vibration causes it. But, if the wire is below the surface then you have much more support and no wear on the wire either. But after reading it again... and thinking about how it alll should be built and work. By all means, cut the X-11. That is a completely funny thing, actually it absolutely hilarious really, to think that Honda didn't design a spring pin relief into the screw, and subsiquently such a minor design flaw can and does cause a complete part malfunction after time. Now... for another question, Does this also mean that worn stock or Green Dot units could be repaired ? Maybe with the Mill and Washer. Hmmmmmm.... Would you like to have my old stock unit once it's replaced ? ..... Maybe you'll want to start an exchange, referbished/repaired/improved side job. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hobicus Posted October 3, 2009 Share Posted October 3, 2009 Stan, you'll have 4 failed ones on Monday or Tuesday. These DO get some lubrication, try leaving the screw out of the end and you'll be spewing oil out the top. Don't ask me how I know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted October 3, 2009 Author Share Posted October 3, 2009 Correction. The x11 shoulder is so small that a washer is going to be nothing left, and hard to make. That is what I was trying to say. The (instead of he) others you could make the washer. But, the force on the wire of the spring is what is gouging the surface that the screw is supposed to contact. It makes the screw not turn, because of the gouge. This is also a pivoting point. This causes everything to chatter, the threads, the sleeve, the spring, the barrel, and the pin holding the end. I see the pin has opened the hole side to side, not in line with the force. Taking the pivot point out by cutting the slot for the wire to be below the surface transfers the load to the screw ledge and lines everything else in the direction of force. Then the screw threads align all the way down, the end forces against the screw and the pen that holds it in has no load on it. I am wondering if the most of the noise might not be coming from the rattle of the cct. The pictures of the old cct inside of the body that the spring was marking sure did not come out at all. It is a focus thing. Going to have to come up with a way to show that. Gotta be a lot of noise from that as it was really marked enough to feel it. Thanks, Hobi, will give me some more to shoot better. Going to have to set the tripod and use the timer to get my movements out of the pictures, and some lighting. It is such a simple mod, and really requires no skill, but, I will be glad to do it for anybody that wants to have it done. Got an old one, send it and I will. I really think that is all there is to it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rossodave Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 -lurker comes out to post- Hey guys I work in a Failure Analysis lab and have access to equipment that could be of some use here. I can take high magnification and high resolution digital photos, measure just about any dimension, identify materials, X-Ray,SEM, cross-section, etc. If you want me to take a look at these for you I can. I may be a little slow getting it done but would be happy to help. I have learned so much on this board over the years. I primarily work on Semiconductor failures but I do have some metallurgy experience. Let me know what you want to do. I live in Fort Collins Colorado. Just a comment on adding the washer to increase the CCT reliability. I would be careful as that surface is probably designed to wear out before whatever it is rubbing on. It is much easier and cheaper to replace a CCT than an internal part of the motor. Just a thought. The idea of cutting a spot to hold the spring sounds like it has some promise to me. Attached are some photos that are a rough example of what I can do with our stereo microscope. They are of a cross section of a an aluminum plate with copper pipes soldered inside of it that we use to cool some MOSFETs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANKSXXX Posted October 5, 2009 Share Posted October 5, 2009 -lurker comes out to post- Hey guys I work in a Failure Analysis lab and have access to equipment that could be of some use here. I can take high magnification and high resolution digital photos, measure just about any dimension, identify materials, X-Ray,SEM, cross-section, etc. If you want me to take a look at these for you I can. I may be a little slow getting it done but would be happy to help. I have learned so much on this board over the years. I primarily work on Semiconductor failures but I do have some metallurgy experience. Let me know what you want to do. I live in Fort Collins Colorado. Just a comment on adding the washer to increase the CCT reliability. I would be careful as that surface is probably designed to wear out before whatever it is rubbing on. It is much easier and cheaper to replace a CCT than an internal part of the motor. Just a thought. The idea of cutting a spot to hold the spring sounds like it has some promise to me. Attached are some photos that are a rough example of what I can do with our stereo microscope. They are of a cross section of a an aluminum plate with copper pipes soldered inside of it that we use to cool some MOSFETs. Great offer and thanks... Hope we can avail ourselves of your generosity. Hank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02XXCA Posted October 10, 2009 Share Posted October 10, 2009 Great work Stan, Can you take one more picture and then mark it to show where you made the relief cut for the spring. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted October 11, 2009 Author Share Posted October 11, 2009 Great work Stan, Can you take one more picture and then mark it to show where you made the relief cut for the spring. Yes, I will. I have learned some things and need to apply the changes, and will do that. There is a reason that it is not lubed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted October 12, 2009 Share Posted October 12, 2009 Stan, I have been working on mine today.... and have come to an..... alternate conclusion. I've taken pictures... and am working on a fix. I now know what the guy in Montrose was talking about the "washer thing", but... That's only part of the problem, and will not completely solve the problem on my CCT, and I imagine yours as well. So I've got a few ideas, and will try them tomorrow, find the Best way to fix it, and post my results. And not to keep you hanging in the Dark.... it has to due with the Sleeve, that has nothing to keep itself from Rattling around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 The dirt head picture, is how far the head of the screw goes down into the Housing, plenty of room for the spring, on mine. The rest are picture of Wear points.... and I'll add that on the threads of the screw the polishing is on the side of the threads.... not on the under face side like you would expect. After talking with you again, I am leaning to believe that all of the wear on the head shows 2 things. It carries most of the load, and on this part Lube is a bad thing. Going to use the washer to take up part of the 23 thousands of end play, but am probably going to tooth it, along with the screw head. Silicone that sleeve on, just because, then put it all back together and see what happens. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skull Posted October 13, 2009 Share Posted October 13, 2009 Correction. The x11 shoulder is so small that a washer is going to be nothing left, and hard to make. That is what I was trying to say. The (instead of he) others you could make the washer. But, the force on the wire of the spring is what is gouging the surface that the screw is supposed to contact. It makes the screw not turn, because of the gouge. This is also a pivoting point. This causes everything to chatter, the threads, the sleeve, the spring, the barrel, and the pin holding the end. I see the pin has opened the hole side to side, not in line with the force. Taking the pivot point out by cutting the slot for the wire to be below the surface transfers the load to the screw ledge and lines everything else in the direction of force. Then the screw threads align all the way down, the end forces against the screw and the pen that holds it in has no load on it. I am wondering if the most of the noise might not be coming from the rattle of the cct. The pictures of the old cct inside of the body that the spring was marking sure did not come out at all. It is a focus thing. Going to have to come up with a way to show that. Gotta be a lot of noise from that as it was really marked enough to feel it. Thanks, Hobi, will give me some more to shoot better. Going to have to set the tripod and use the timer to get my movements out of the pictures, and some lighting. It is such a simple mod, and really requires no skill, but, I will be glad to do it for anybody that wants to have it done. Got an old one, send it and I will. I really think that is all there is to it. You got the Mrs. to type that, didn't you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted October 13, 2009 Author Share Posted October 13, 2009 Correction. The x11 shoulder is so small that a washer is going to be nothing left, and hard to make. That is what I was trying to say. The (instead of he) others you could make the washer. But, the force on the wire of the spring is what is gouging the surface that the screw is supposed to contact. It makes the screw not turn, because of the gouge. This is also a pivoting point. This causes everything to chatter, the threads, the sleeve, the spring, the barrel, and the pin holding the end. I see the pin has opened the hole side to side, not in line with the force. Taking the pivot point out by cutting the slot for the wire to be below the surface transfers the load to the screw ledge and lines everything else in the direction of force. Then the screw threads align all the way down, the end forces against the screw and the pen that holds it in has no load on it. I am wondering if the most of the noise might not be coming from the rattle of the cct. The pictures of the old cct inside of the body that the spring was marking sure did not come out at all. It is a focus thing. Going to have to come up with a way to show that. Gotta be a lot of noise from that as it was really marked enough to feel it. Thanks, Hobi, will give me some more to shoot better. Going to have to set the tripod and use the timer to get my movements out of the pictures, and some lighting. It is such a simple mod, and really requires no skill, but, I will be glad to do it for anybody that wants to have it done. Got an old one, send it and I will. I really think that is all there is to it. You got the Mrs. to type that, didn't you? If it would help I would have, still reads like a second grader at a science fair, today to me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 Personally speeling & grammar is overated in this context... I figure as long as you get your point acrossed... who cares about punctuation, adjectives, spelling, etc. It only pisses of the Grammar and spelling Nazi's.... and well they need something to be pist about anyhow, that's why they're Nazi's in the first place. ... Back on task, I'm almost ready to re-assemble my CCT, but have a small problem.. when I was dis-assembling it, I was not counting on the spring being preloaded beyound the 7 turns of the screw (5 turns once fully assembled), and hence when I reomoved the actuator, the screw spun, and unload the pre-tension, without me being able to count it. And since I don't have another NEW unit to dis-assemble to correct my Oooops, I'm left with guessing about the pre-load. This morning I tested the spring and concluded there is the possibilty for it to be wound 12-13 times. This would mean there's the possibility for 5-7 preload windings. So..... Do you have another New unit... that you can Carefully dis-assemble, with a screw driver in the slot to count the number of pre-load windings ? Or... I'll be left with no other option but to max out the preload, and then Hope it's not too much load on the tensioner, slide, and chian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted October 14, 2009 Share Posted October 14, 2009 So... I decided I needed to see inside the Housing while the spring was winding up, so that I could see when the spring would touch the side of the screw head (since I have wear marks on mine proving it does, see picture with arrows in earlier post), and determine if it was due to a uni-formally constricting spring, or if it was caused from spring twist, and when would, or how far would the spring elongate under such a high pre-load ? So I decided to take a block of wood and make a actuator holder, hold the spring end with a pair of vise grips, and count the number of turns and watch the effects... photos attached. 5 turns, not much compression, nor elongation. 7 turns, is there any difference.... not really and nothing that would suggest the wear marks I have. 12 turns, yep that looks more like it.... now it touching the screw and has elogated enough that the spring would probably hit both inside ends of the housing, and cause the same mark I have on them as well. Then I assembled the CCT without the spring in it and installed it on the bike again, and counted the number of turns until the actuator engages the Slider. Answer 1.75. .... Well that's all nice to know but, ..... I still wish I knew just exactly how many turns were set in there by the factory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted October 15, 2009 Author Share Posted October 15, 2009 Ok, after looking at it after running it, I was wrong. Eric, has determined that the wire of the spring did not contact the ledge, so the slot did nothing. And the moly grease was gone. Strike two. I did look at adding more preload on the spring, and 12 turns looks to be the limit. After that the tang of the spring will release. I put mine back together at the max preload and reinstalled. Seams fine now. When I took it apart, I counted the turns from extended and got 5. So with the five of extension, looks like 10 is what it is sent with. So two more turns than stock. I tried to do a washer to take up the slack in the end, and looks to be a worthy endeavor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted October 16, 2009 Share Posted October 16, 2009 Very good, I was going to add one more than stock, that would be 11, and I was figuring that that would be for correct for any chian slack or slider wear. and I already have the washer ready, need to finish a few more things, but will be busy adding insulation to the attic tomorrow (big one day job), hopefully Saturday I can can finish the improvements to the CCT, take photos and post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EVLXX Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 Finish the repairs to the CCT on Saturday... Installed the washer and put 11 turns on the spring. Rode to work this morning, and can report it's a huge difference, but... there is still a very slight rattle noise, at low rpm when pulling the the clutch and slow speed coasting 5-10 mph. I could probably live it with like this for a very long time, and like I said, it's a huge improvement really. To try and put it into perspective, probably 90% of the rattle is gone. But, I think I'll pull it back out and try 12 turns, and see if that solves the remainder of the noise. Edited to add.... After looking closely at the parts, studying how they work and looking at their wear markings. I have come to the conclusion, there is 2 things that lead to the deterioration of the CCT's operating effectiveness. 1. The Spring gets Weak. I surmize that after so long of being heated in the Motor, being under a constant load 100% of the time, and haveing to deal with varying vibration dynamics, the spring loses it's ability to propperly apply the nessecary tension to the Cam chian. Springs don't like Heat, Constant loads, or vibrations. 2. Polishing Parts. The load of the Cam Chian gets directly transmitted from the slider, into the adjusting screw, and into the houseing at the head of the screw. As a new part, there is a small amount of sufface roughness on the face of the screw, and in the steel retainer cap permenantly mounted inside the Housing. And all of this roughness, although very small, helps to keep the screw from turning under a load and vibration, well that and the slope of the Threads on the screw. But as the suface becomes worn, and the ground metal particle mix with the oil parictle in the air and become a lubricating paste of sorts, the load of the chain increasingly gets carried by the screw and hence the Spring. Further increasing the springs failure rate... and the part. So.... I believe there is a quick Fix for a while, but it's not a permentant fix. When the part begins to fail. The spring tension could be increased by adding the additional winding from 10 stock to 12, and the head of the screw can be flattened and re-roughened up with a little file work. There is the possibility for a washer to be installed but, I believe it's use is only minor. And I believe the part will eventually fail again, at which point there will not be a way of further tensioning the spring, and the part will have to be replaced. Is this a simple maintenance operation and should it be atempted? Absolutely...... if you can't do this.... well maybe you should let someone else change your Oil too. How long will it last ? I have now idea..... only time will tell. But the good news is, it gives me more time to get a new CCT ordered and on the shelf ready to go for the next time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tomek Posted October 20, 2009 Share Posted October 20, 2009 1. The Spring gets Weak. I surmize that after so long of being heated in the Motor, being under a constant load 100% of the time, and haveing to deal with varying vibration dynamics, the spring loses it's ability to propperly apply the nessecary tension to the Cam chian. Springs don't like Heat, Constant loads, or vibrations. +1. Many,many moons ago I tried different preloads on otherwise failed tensioners.The problem,the rattle, always came back.Soon or later. It is just like with suspension,increasing preload won`t cure problems related to the spring being too soft. Now,to give you an evil idea ,cutting or basically making spring shorter will effectively increase its rate. I personally switched to manual tensioner from APE many,many moons ago.Never looked back.I readjust it once every 15-20k miles,that is it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted October 20, 2009 Author Share Posted October 20, 2009 1. The Spring gets Weak. I surmize that after so long of being heated in the Motor, being under a constant load 100% of the time, and haveing to deal with varying vibration dynamics, the spring loses it's ability to propperly apply the nessecary tension to the Cam chian. Springs don't like Heat, Constant loads, or vibrations. +1. Many,many moons ago I tried different preloads on otherwise failed tensioners.The problem,the rattle, always came back.Soon or later. It is just like with suspension,increasing preload won`t cure problems related to the spring being too soft. Now,to give you an evil idea ,cutting or basically making spring shorter will effectively increase its rate. I personally switched to manual tensioner from APE many,many moons ago.Never looked back.I readjust it once every 15-20k miles,that is it. I have one too,(ape) and plan on using it on the new motor I am building. I have not forgot about your spring tool either. Have not used it yet. Still in the envelope. Eric has a plan to take some of the spring equation out of the deal. I on the other hand am working on another plan. Both are workable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted November 2, 2009 Author Share Posted November 2, 2009 Had a PM from Hank, and reminded me to do an update: First, cct, I have done mine and installed, but, no real time on it, but basicly the only thing that I have figured out is the spring gets weaker over time and heat. You can tighten it and regain the usefullness without any problem. I really think that the screw threads need to be blasted for a tooth to them to prevent backing up. They polish out with the slack in the spring. One thing that Eric has found out is that you can take apart, clean, and screw the plunger back in and tighten it and it will stay good enough to turn the spring 12 times without it unscrewing. Makes it easy to put the tension on it. I have been cutting a notich in the body where the spring hooks over to hold it from climbing out. 10 turns is stock, and that is about the most you can put on it, but the older ones will take 12 and a little more. There is a mark that the clip hat has that aligns with the spring and the front where the green dots are and helps to know which way the plunger goes. Eric made a steel washer to take up some slack between the screw head and the end of the body. .020 inch, and that is what started the whole thing, a guy in Montrose said he has done this and never had another problem. He said that that is where the wear is. I will put some pictures here later...I know. wa-wa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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