bpg Posted September 19, 2008 Share Posted September 19, 2008 Here's the long version: http://www.cbr1100xx.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=56237 Here's the summary: a few weeks ago bike wouldn't start - jumped it and it started and ran fine but low charging voltage. Replaced battery, stator tested bad. Replaced R/R and stator along w/ battery. R/R was replaced by Yammie R1 R/R. While slicing wiring harness for swapping the R1 R/R, the (-) battery cable accidentally touched the (-) battery terminal, resulted in spark show at my electrician pliers, and a blown main 30A fuse. Replaced fuse, finished swapping in R1 R/R, and turned key on, all lights/horn/sigs/etc. worked, but (and I didn't actually realize it until now) the fuel pump was not running at key-on. Still had to wait for a stator gasket so bike was left alone for a few days. Stator and gasket installed today, turned key on and noticed no fuel pump whir. The bike cranked over just fine but no engine firing. Every other electrical component (besides the exception below) works fine so far. Another weird thing - all lights look fine except for high beam - it flickered for a while then went out completely (this same thing happened right after installing the R1 R/R as well). FWIW, Highbeam IS on a modulator. Anyway, re: the fuel pump: - 0.2 VDC at fuel pump, so juice isn't making it that far. - All the fuel relays right behind the battery seem to switch over fine when jumped to battery. - Bank angle sensor tests out fine according to manual (can I try bypassing it just in case?) So, where are some of the fuses associated w/ the fuel pump actually located (guessing that one of these went during my prior spark show)? I'm heavily leaning toward a blown fuse vs bad ground, since this was an "all the sudden" incident, and the whole voltage surge when cutting the R/R wires.. Manual doesn't really show the fuel pump fuses too well, the wire from the pump goes straight into a giant harness... Could the R1 R/R be a part of the problem(s) (seeing as it and the stator are the only "major changes" to occur prior to this)? I left the black R/R wire ('02 Bird) taped up and disconnected from the R/R. Any other ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zero Knievel Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 I'd check whatever "relay" turns the pump on and off. Make sure that is working. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockmeupto125 Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Check your battery voltage to assure good supply. Then jumper the fuel pump directly. No sense in troubleshooting supply lines if the pump went tango umbrella due to a current indiscretion. Once you know it works you can delve into the maze of wiring/relays/sensors/blackmagic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 20, 2008 Author Share Posted September 20, 2008 I'd check whatever "relay" turns the pump on and off. Make sure that is working. I'm still gaining a sense for the fueling schematic, but there appear to be 2 relays involved (these are the big relays lined up behind the battery): the FUEL CUT relay (middle-left) and the ENGINE STOP relay (middle-right). I pulled each off & powered them & they made a distinct "click" when power was applied (I'm better at mechanical than electrical, and the manual's method of "checking" relays wasn't too clear..) My thought is to just bridge (i.e. bypass) each relay to see if that allows power to the pump... Good idea?? :icon_think: Check your battery voltage to assure good supply. Then jumper the fuel pump directly. No sense in troubleshooting supply lines if the pump went tango umbrella due to a current indiscretion. Once you know it works you can delve into the maze of wiring/relays/sensors/blackmagic. Yes sir, fuel pump whirs away like a champ when jumped.. Permission to delve? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rockmeupto125 Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Delve at will, ensign! Cycle your kill switch through a few times. There may be some oxidation/carbon on the contacts from your little fuse incident. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 20, 2008 Author Share Posted September 20, 2008 Delve at will, ensign! Cycle your kill switch through a few times. There may be some oxidation/carbon on the contacts from your little fuse incident. No luck w/ the kill switch.. However, I did jump the fuel pump again and tried to start the bike, started up fine and revved just like normal, so I'm hoping/guessing the ECU wasn't fried Question re: checking the relays - From looking at the MAIN wiring schematic (not the fuel-specific one), which color wires need bridged to bypass the relays? I'm just a little nervous to be plugging wrong schtuff together right now, for obvious reasons... Beyond the relays, this electrical dummy isn't sure what else to check - all fuses in the little fuse box are good, and both 30A fuses (the one behind the battery and the one beside it on the starter relay) are good as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 20, 2008 Author Share Posted September 20, 2008 Some interesting reading from the "other" forum: http://www.cbrxx.com/engine-airbox-exhaust...tarting-up.html sounds like that guy simply bypassed part of the wiring to get the pump to always run with key-on, which even I could do very easily (with a proper fuse and a switch, of course) to get a running bike again... Hoping it doesn't come to that in my case, but if so, how plausible is that for long term (my bike "only" has 64K miles - I'd like to double that before I even consider retiring her!)? Thanks for the great and quick responses, this forum is the best!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 20, 2008 Author Share Posted September 20, 2008 New question (somewhere in there!): Looking at the fuel system diagram on p 5-5 of the manual, the fuel pump gets power via the following route: 1) Battery (+) to 30A main fuse B, via Red/white wire, which continues to the ENGINE STOP RELAY. 2) If I am reading the schematic correctly, inside the ENGINE STOP RELAY the R/W wire switches "on" to a Black/white wire (when the relay is energized by the Red/orange wire from the Bank Angle sensor, and the black wire from the ignition switch). 3) The power then flows in the B/W wire to the FUEL CUT-OFF RELAY, 4) which provides power to the fuel pump. OK, if we back up to step 2: with engine stop relay connected, if I plug in the multimeter to the R/W and B/W terminals of the relay connector, I get battery voltage when the key is OFF and zero voltage when the key is ON. Isn't this backwards - i.e. do I just need to replace this relay? However, when I pulled the engine stop relay off and jumped the R/W to B/W terminal via a paper clip, still no fuel pump whirring... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redxxrdr Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Brendan, Are you measuring the Br BL/W with the relay in or out? If the relay is installed, then I think all is good to that point. When the relay closes, the Br, BL/W wires are connected together by the relay contacts and you would not read any voltage. If the relay was out, well that's a lot different. It looks like the fuel cut-off relay is normally closed. That is to cut the fuel off, the relay has to be pulled in. Measure the voltage at the relay from BL/W to BR/Bl. It should be 0 vdc. Voltage there would indicate the ECM is turning off the fuel. That is if my old eyes and a magnifying glass followed the schematics right. If you have voltage on that BR/BL, I would revisit the kill switch. I don't know how the ECM handles that signal, but I would look there first. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redxxrdr Posted September 20, 2008 Share Posted September 20, 2008 Another thought, I followed the W/BL wire out of the bank sensor, it goes across to the Regulator and turns into BL, then up to the kill switch as BL. That leaves the kill switch as BL/W which is the wire going into the fuel cutoff relay. Is the BL wire connected at the regulator? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 20, 2008 Author Share Posted September 20, 2008 Another thought, I followed the W/BL wire out of the bank sensor, it goes across to the Regulator and turns into BL, then up to the kill switch as BL. That leaves the kill switch as BL/W which is the wire going into the fuel cutoff relay. Is the BL wire connected at the regulator? Well, as I stated in the other thread (referenced in post 1), I replaced the OEM R/R with an R1 R/R, so no, the B/W wire is not connected at the R/R (since the Yammie R/R only has terminals for the 3 yellow, one red and one green R/R wires. I was assured that cutting and taping up the B/W Reg/Rect wire, thereby "leaving it hanging" would cause no harm on an '02 Bird (not that I'm faulting the sources of that info!), but you have me thinkin... I was going to swap the old R/R back in anyway just in case, will definitely try it now... If this solves the fuel pump issue, I'm curious if I can even get the R1 R/R to work on my bike? FWIW the stock R/R actually tested out fine (as far as my limited testing ability showed), I just thought it'd be prudent to replace it after 64K miles, lots of heated gear/grip and electronic goodies, and the whole blown stator and bad battery episode... Thank you for your ideas, I'll check them out tomorrow AM and report promptly! EDIT - another idea: I'm thinking the B (B/W) wire that was left dangling by the R1 Reg/Rect swap needs to be either grounded, or fed juice, correct? Could I simply ground it, and if that doesn't work feed some 12VDC to it? Apologies in advance from a mechanic trying very hard to pose as an amateur electrician! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 21, 2008 Author Share Posted September 21, 2008 Brendan, Are you measuring the Br BL/W with the relay in or out? If the relay is installed, then I think all is good to that point. When the relay closes, the Br, BL/W wires are connected together by the relay contacts and you would not read any voltage. If the relay was out, well that's a lot different. It looks like the fuel cut-off relay is normally closed. That is to cut the fuel off, the relay has to be pulled in. Measure the voltage at the relay from BL/W to BR/Bl. It should be 0 vdc. Voltage there would indicate the ECM is turning off the fuel. That is if my old eyes and a magnifying glass followed the schematics right. If you have voltage on that BR/BL, I would revisit the kill switch. I don't know how the ECM handles that signal, but I would look there first. I think you're a little ahead of me - I was measuring at the ENGINE STOP relay, with relay in, across that relay's Red/White and Black/White wire. Showed 12+VDC with ignition off, 0VDC w/ ignition on. FWIW, I went ahead and checked the FUEL CUT relay across the Brown & Black/White terminals (w/ relay in) like you suggested, and got 0.002VDC at key-off, and 0.18VDC at key on... Bad/fried relay?? Only thing is, neither bridging the relay with a paper clip and disconnecting the relay didn't help (Based on the fuel diagram schematic, I'm still unclear on how these relays could allow power to reach the fuel pump if they're switched OFF w/ key on :icon_think: ) FWIW2 - I went ahead and pulled the R1 Reg/Rect, installed stock R/R including the black wire, same no fuel pump situation is present.. So that possibility is potentially eliminated. FWIW3 - again, feeding batt power directly to to the fuel pump allows the bike to start, idle, rev like normal, and the kill switch works like normal in this set-up... If I can't find a solution to this, the hillbilly in me is thinking why not wire in the fuel pump's power via a key-on circuit (using a relay)... The pump is on all the time when the engine is running anyway, anyone see any harm in this? I could also install a switch to turn it off for those times when I have ignition-on and the engine is not running. Thoughts? EDIT: latest & greatest - with everything else wired in normally, disconnecting the FUEL CUT-OFF relay and bridging the Brown to Black/white terminals together, the fuel pump works w/ key on! However, it stays on continuously... My thought is to order a new relay, and bridge the terminals in the meantime... Still don't know why it stays on... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TuffguyF4i Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 Yup. order new relay. All you have to do to take the relay out of the mix, is short the juice going into the wire. You have a hot coming in (key on hot) and an always hot. The relay is just and automatic switch. When it gets juice it flips the switch. Flip the switch for it. Hook up the hot coming in, with the hot going out. If the bike runs normally then its the relay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoOne65 Posted September 22, 2008 Share Posted September 22, 2008 Hey man if you put R1 reg on FI 'bird then I think your suppose to ground out the left over black wire (I think thats what color it is) I tried to put a 99 in my 97 and the 99 needs that extra wire. never did figure out way it wouldnt work. I am on my 3rd unit. 1 failed and my stator took out the other two before I figured out the issue oh and if you are electrically challenged just get a 12v test light makes it a little easier IMO Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 22, 2008 Author Share Posted September 22, 2008 Yup. order new relay. All you have to do to take the relay out of the mix, is short the juice going into the wire. You have a hot coming in (key on hot) and an always hot. The relay is just and automatic switch. When it gets juice it flips the switch. Flip the switch for it. Hook up the hot coming in, with the hot going out. If the bike runs normally then its the relay. Yip - that appears to be it... I soldered together 2 male terminals to make a "bridge" between the Fuel cut-off relay's Brown and Black/White terminals at the connector, then taped it up and she works fine (albeit pump continues to run any time the key is on). Rode it to work today, the new stator and R1 R/R are keeping me at 13.4-13.6VDC, happy about that! Still have the headlight issue to look into (lowbeam works but no highbeam, I'll have to see if that relay is fried as well or if it's just a bad bulb - haven't had time yet to check) and I'm not getting juice to my tail light circuit for some reason... A LOT better then where I was a few days ago, just a couple gremlins to chase down yet! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 22, 2008 Author Share Posted September 22, 2008 Hey man if you put R1 reg on FI 'bird then I think your suppose to ground out the left over black wire (I think thats what color it is) I tried to put a 99 in my 97 and the 99 needs that extra wire. never did figure out way it wouldnt work. I am on my 3rd unit. 1 failed and my stator took out the other two before I figured out the issue oh and if you are electrically challenged just get a 12v test light makes it a little easier IMO Huh, I was told by quite a few folks just to tape the black R/R wire up so it DOESN'T ground to the frame... :icon_think: Yes, I've heard that when putting a FI bike's R/R into a carbed Bird, you need to tie that black wire into the taillight circuit or something (and only at a specific spot?), but for my situtation; not anything beyond "leave it hang and ignore it" re: what to do w/ the black wire on an FI bike when going to the R1 R/R... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoOne65 Posted September 24, 2008 Share Posted September 24, 2008 Hey man if you put R1 reg on FI 'bird then I think your suppose to ground out the left over black wire (I think thats what color it is) I tried to put a 99 in my 97 and the 99 needs that extra wire. never did figure out way it wouldnt work. I am on my 3rd unit. 1 failed and my stator took out the other two before I figured out the issue oh and if you are electrically challenged just get a 12v test light makes it a little easier IMO Huh, I was told by quite a few folks just to tape the black R/R wire up so it DOESN'T ground to the frame... :icon_think: Yes, I've heard that when putting a FI bike's R/R into a carbed Bird, you need to tie that black wire into the taillight circuit or something (and only at a specific spot?), but for my situtation; not anything beyond "leave it hang and ignore it" re: what to do w/ the black wire on an FI bike when going to the R1 R/R... well I "think" thats correct but I sure could be wrong! As for using it on my 97 i tried grounding the wire first then put volts on it and finally taped it off resulting in way more voltage that it was suppose to put out. something above 17v in all cases. I am gonna try and find where I got my info from and get back to you J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted October 26, 2008 Author Share Posted October 26, 2008 Well, the bike ran fine for a month, then this Friday I noticed that the voltmeter was up around 18VDC... Got home, grabbed the multimeter, and started the bike up - showed 13.2VDC on the multimeter @ 3K rpm (and was still showing 16VDC on the cheapy bike-mounted voltmeter). Then, the bike just quit running(?!). It will crank, the fuel pump whirs away, but it just will not fire up. Haven't had time to look at it much, I noticed the FI light stays on when the key is on (remember, to get the fuel pump to work I just disconnected the FUEL CUT-OFF relay and bridged the Brown & Black/white terminals together). This keeps the fuel pump running continuously if the key is on - could the fuel pressure regulator have crapped out and caused the no-start condition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuXXtin Posted October 26, 2008 Share Posted October 26, 2008 Gas in tank? edit - fuel filter like the nearby thread in the garage?! Just a thought. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted October 27, 2008 Author Share Posted October 27, 2008 I always have gas... I'll have to tear down a bit and check it out tonight, will report additional symptoms. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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