runner Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 And 100 mph... Just curious....Who actually practices panic braking? How do your distances compare to those published in the bike mags? 30 feet from 30 mph and 125 feet from 60 mph (examples). I perform maximum braking practice from various speeds on occasion...it gets your attention! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airborneXX Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I do it regularly from 30 mph and 60 mph. Not so much from 80-100 which I really should as that is my normal highway speed. Remember to use 4 fingers on the front brake to obtain maximum braking. Even with the Spiegler lines I can get the lever all the way into the grip during a quick stop. I've also had the back end up in the air with all three bags loaded. I didn't even realize it until I felt the rear tire hit. Take an ERC to really get some practice on braking and swerving. Many people have bad habits when it comes to braking and swerving which will be brought to your attention during the class. It's up to you to change and practice after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ActionStarCBRxx Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 What's ERC? I practice as well... one thing to keep in mind... don't practice on tires that don't have good tread and a suspension that has too much travel! (needed fork rebuild) Also, be mindful of how tight you a grabbing/holding the handle bars. If/When the bike goes into a skid, or the front drops really rapidly, when you put alot of pressure on your bars, you add to the proabability that the bike is going to tuck under you because you are not giving the chance for the bike to correct itself. I did this last year and got a busted mirror and fairing to show for it. It really showed me how much pressure I was putting on the bars when I was in panick stopping and how much I was not using my knees to hold the tank. The point... keep the hands/arms loose! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airborneXX Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 What's ERC? I practice as well... one thing to keep in mind... don't practice RIDE on tires that don't have good tread and a suspension that has too much travel! (needed fork rebuild) Also, be mindful of how tight you a grabbing/holding the handle bars. If/When the bike goes into a skid, or the front drops really rapidly, when you put alot of pressure on your bars, you add to the proabability that the bike is going to tuck under you because you are not giving the chance for the bike to correct itself. I did this last year and got a busted mirror and fairing to show for it. It really showed me how much pressure I was putting on the bars when I was in panick stopping and how much I was not using my knees to hold the tank. The point... keep the hands/arms loose! MSF Experienced Rider Course. Good advice on keeping hands/arms loose. That applies to all situations. Squeezing the tank with your knees also helps with control. Also keep looking up and straight ahead. I watch students all the time that as the front drops they drop their eyes and head with it and wind up looking straight down, and as we all know... You go where you look! I also made a correction for you Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 Remember to use 4 fingers on the front brake to obtain maximum braking. Even with the Spiegler lines I can get the lever all the way into the grip during a quick stop. If that's true, there's something wrong with your brakes. When I took the ERC (it should be noted that the ERC here is free, and a fucking joke), they wouldn't quit riding me about the four fingered braking. That's how I used to do it before I started riding off road. I've since found I feel much more in control with those last two fingers still gripping the bar, and I can still get the rear in the air with two fingers. This is one of those things that I believe is "do what works for you". Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hooplehead Posted July 16, 2008 Share Posted July 16, 2008 I practice panic slows from 100 down to about 60mph all the time.I think it's kind of thrilling when you get that high speed braking wobble! Usually the local law enforcement reminds me to practice, when I see them pop up over a hill top. I practice the 30-0mph stops frequently, that's why I am not so impressed with how long the bird takes to stop (compared to my old gsxier 600). What really messes with my head is trying to learn the skid point, yet the LBS won't let me! :icon_wall: As far as four fingers, I have grown accustomed to a 2 finger grip. I learned the hard way when I got my rm250! Seems to me the Bird just weighs a lot and will take more getting used to. As far as pulling until the lever hits grip . . . . . you got something wrong man! Never measured stopping distances, but I'd imagine the specs are already in writing somewhere. I could care less of the actual distance, so long as it's a couple inches before that car! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airborneXX Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Remember to use 4 fingers on the front brake to obtain maximum braking. Even with the Spiegler lines I can get the lever all the way into the grip during a quick stop. If that's true, there's something wrong with your brakes. When I took the ERC (it should be noted that the ERC here is free, and a fucking joke), they wouldn't quit riding me about the four fingered braking. That's how I used to do it before I started riding off road. I've since found I feel much more in control with those last two fingers still gripping the bar, and I can still get the rear in the air with two fingers. This is one of those things that I believe is "do what works for you". Nothing at all wrong with the brakes. As the front loads you progressively squeeze more (I know you already know this just explaining for others) and keep squeezing until you are stopped. The lever on most bikes will easily squeeze in enough to at least pinch the two fingers still on the grip, and most will go to the grip. I also have BMW grips which are fatter and reduce some of my lever travel. This of course is for quick stops. Now when on the track or running the twisties I agree that two fingers is best as it allows you better throttle control and grip on the bars. There that's the reason for 4 fingers on the brake. Edit as you wish Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Remember to use 4 fingers on the front brake to obtain maximum braking. Even with the Spiegler lines I can get the lever all the way into the grip during a quick stop. If that's true, there's something wrong with your brakes. When I took the ERC (it should be noted that the ERC here is free, and a fucking joke), they wouldn't quit riding me about the four fingered braking. That's how I used to do it before I started riding off road. I've since found I feel much more in control with those last two fingers still gripping the bar, and I can still get the rear in the air with two fingers. This is one of those things that I believe is "do what works for you". Nothing at all wrong with the brakes. As the front loads you progressively squeeze more (I know you already know this just explaining for others) and keep squeezing until you are stopped. The lever on most bikes will easily squeeze in enough to at least pinch the two fingers still on the grip (no bike I've owned in the last ten years would do this, but then again, I've never kept the stock rubber lines longer than a month or two), and most will go to the grip (if the lever will go to the grip, then lever travel is what limits how hard the brakes can be applied? Sounds like a dangerous situation). I also have BMW grips which are fatter and reduce some of my lever travel (I've thought about this, and lever adjustment also comes into play. Mine are always adjusted almost all the way out, as I have large hands. I'll have to try adjusting them in and see if they get that much closer to the grip). This of course is for quick stops. Now when on the track or running the twisties I agree that two fingers is best as it allows you better throttle control and grip on the bars (I'd argue that what works best on the track or running twisties is what works best, why change methods back and forth?). There that's the reason for 4 fingers on the brake. Edit as you wish Done Seriously, this is one of those things that I feel is personal preference. You feel you stop better with four fingers, then use four. If I feel I can stop just as effectively with two, then I'll do that. The differences in braking systems, hand size and strength, and lever travel all make this a pretty subjective thing. What annoyed me about the ERC here was the instructors' insistence that i was doing it wrong, even after I had the rear tire up in the air a couple times. The instructors for the ERC here took everything straight from their little book, and there was no discussion or arguing with the book. I've heard great things about the ERC, but the program here (at least 7 years ago, when I took it) was full of arrogant instructors who had most of their time wasted by guys I was frankly surprised had managed to get an M endorsement at all. I guess I should give the instructors a bit of a break, becasue if the average skill level I saw that day was what I had to deal with, I'd be a bit of a knob myself, and disinclined to discuss the finer points. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airborneXX Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Thanks I knew I could count on Reditbird The MSF courses have changed quite a bit over the last few years. From what I understand the new program is a bit more laid back. 4 fingers on the brake truly is subjective as it varies bike to bike and rider to rider, but is also something that you can't go wrong with especially for newer riders, that's why we teach it. As an instructor I would do it on a rider to rider basis. If I can see you are achieving max braking (not pinching fingers) with 2 fingered braking I would let it go, but I would ask that you at least try it to make me happy I too was a 2 fingered braker before becoming a Rider Coach, but after much practice and experimentation I have found my stopping distance is much shorter and better controlled using 4. Again this is for quick stops, not slowing down to set up for cornering. There I still use 2 so I have better throttle control. Good discussion. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CxBXR Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Maximum braking practice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Thanks I knew I could count on Reditbird The MSF courses have changed quite a bit over the last few years. From what I understand the new program is a bit more laid back. 4 fingers on the brake truly is subjective as it varies bike to bike and rider to rider, but is also something that you can't go wrong with especially for newer riders, that's why we teach it. As an instructor I would do it on a rider to rider basis. If I can see you are achieving max braking (not pinching fingers) with 2 fingered braking I would let it go, but I would ask that you at least try it to make me happy I too was a 2 fingered braker before becoming a Rider Coach, but after much practice and experimentation I have found my stopping distance is much shorter and better controlled using 4. Again this is for quick stops, not slowing down to set up for cornering. There I still use 2 so I have better throttle control. Good discussion. I'm not seeing the need to differentiate between quick stops and slowing down for a corner as quickly as possible. Either way, you're looking to apply as much pressure as the front tire will take in a controlled fashion, no? I'm not arguing this as much as asking to have it explained to me. Is it that as you slow you can apply more and more pressure, and as you get closer to a full stop you find the strength of four fingers is required or prefered? On a similar subject, I was watching some really cool onboard MotoGP video recently and they did a synchronized split frame showing Nicky Hayden's and Valentino Rossi's throttle hands as they worked around the same track- Hayden, ex-flat tracker and dirt biker- two fingered braking. Rossi, born and bred road racer- four fingers. BTW- I adjusted my levers all the way in, and I can't get them to the grip on either the F4 or the ZX. I can, if I put my gloves on and squeeze as hard as I possibly can, get them to just touch the backs of my grip fingers. I still say you should look into that. You ever do the lever squeezing thing at a meet? Go around and check everyone's front brake, you'll be amazed at the differences in travel and firmness from bike to bike. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airborneXX Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Thanks I knew I could count on Reditbird The MSF courses have changed quite a bit over the last few years. From what I understand the new program is a bit more laid back. 4 fingers on the brake truly is subjective as it varies bike to bike and rider to rider, but is also something that you can't go wrong with especially for newer riders, that's why we teach it. As an instructor I would do it on a rider to rider basis. If I can see you are achieving max braking (not pinching fingers) with 2 fingered braking I would let it go, but I would ask that you at least try it to make me happy I too was a 2 fingered braker before becoming a Rider Coach, but after much practice and experimentation I have found my stopping distance is much shorter and better controlled using 4. Again this is for quick stops, not slowing down to set up for cornering. There I still use 2 so I have better throttle control. Good discussion. I'm not seeing the need to differentiate between quick stops and slowing down for a corner as quickly as possible. Either way, you're looking to apply as much pressure as the front tire will take in a controlled fashion, no? I'm not arguing this as much as asking to have it explained to me. Is it that as you slow you can apply more and more pressure, and as you get closer to a full stop you find the strength of four fingers is required or prefered? As you slow there is more pressure exerted on the front tire which is giving you more traction to prevent lock up, therefore you can progressively apply more and more force to the brake lever as that traction increases. Slow progressive squeeze is the key here. Grab at the lever faster than the weight can transfer to build that traction and you will lock the front tire. So yes you are trying to apply as much pressure as the front tire can take. As I get closer to a full stop I do need to use four fingers for strength and on most bikes to get my fingers out of the way. Cut me a break I'm left handed so my right doesn't get as much of a workout On a similar subject, I was watching some really cool onboard MotoGP video recently and they did a synchronized split frame showing Nicky Hayden's and Valentino Rossi's throttle hands as they worked around the same track- Hayden, ex-flat tracker and dirt biker- two fingered braking. Rossi, born and bred road racer- four fingers. See different strokes for different folks! I'll have to pay more attention to the racers. Ever see the slo mo close ups of the front tire under braking? Looks like the tire just blew out! BTW- I adjusted my levers all the way in, and I can't get them to the grip on either the F4 or the ZX. I can, if I put my gloves on and squeeze as hard as I possibly can, get them to just touch the backs of my grip fingers. I still say you should look into that. You ever do the lever squeezing thing at a meet? Go around and check everyone's front brake, you'll be amazed at the differences in travel and firmness from bike to bike. I've checked out a lot of bikes at meets. Yes some levers are rock hard with very little travel and others have a bit more give, some with stock lines are harder than those with aftermarket. Why? I have no idea. Mine hauls down pretty quickly with just a light touch, but with a good progressive squeeze and good press on the rear it is stopping VERY quickly. I keep my lever adjusted all the way out now and it takes alot of squeeze to get it in, but it will get there under really hard braking Food for thought too. You're comparing charging into a turn as fast as you can, braking to entry speed, turning and rolling on ASAP. A controlled situation if you will. To a truck backing out and blocking the road requiring you to STOP right now. If you're a little hot into the turn you still have options. If you don't continue that progressive squeeze on the front brake until you are completely stopped you may have just hit a truck. Just for kicks find out an average stopping distance @ x speed for your particular bike. Find a nice clean parking lot or back road and put two marks in the road. One for when to start braking and the other at the above measured distance. I'll guarantee most people (myself included) will go well past that second line until they learn proper braking technique. And Tim, I know you know most of this stuff. It's a good discussion and I want as much information as possible put out there for everyone to see. This is stuff EVERY rider should be thinking about and practicing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Para045 Posted July 17, 2008 Share Posted July 17, 2008 Just for kicks find out an average stopping distance @ x speed for your particular bike. Find a nice clean parking lot or back road and put two marks in the road. One for when to start braking and the other at the above measured distance. I'll guarantee most people (myself included) will go well past that second line until they learn proper braking technique. So what is the generally held minimum stopping distance for a BB at particular speeds? Also I too can get my lever to the foam Johar grips on my 98 (not sure about std grips as I changed them pretty much straight away), possibly they could be improved with some braided lines and a bleed? Still stops really well though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp11XX Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 I practiced maximum braking on the Bird this morning on my commute to work... The three large whitetail does that were in the middle of the right lane seemed very impressed that I could haul it down from 70 that fast :icon_shocked:. I used four fingers on the front and still only pulled the lever about halfway to the grip . This is the only bike I've ever had that I have not locked the rear wheel at least once under panic conditions ....she takes care of me....good girl! :icon_thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airborneXX Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 I practiced maximum braking on the Bird this morning on my commute to work... The three large whitetail does that were in the middle of the right lane seemed very impressed that I could haul it down from 70 that fast :icon_shocked:. I used four fingers on the front and still only pulled the lever about halfway to the grip . This is the only bike I've ever had that I have not locked the rear wheel at least once under panic conditions ....she takes care of me....good girl! :icon_thumbsup: Are you sure? Try it again on the way home I've never gotten the rear to lock either. I spent one practice using rear brake only, and all I got was a nice straight stop just a bit longer. Kinda screws me up when I get on the CB900 and F2 as they both lock up with a light touch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp11XX Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 Are you sure? Try it again on the way home It's entirely possible... I won't get out of class until about 10 and my ride home is mostly 2-lane 55 zones through the woods... I've never gotten the rear to lock either. I spent one practice using rear brake only, and all I got was a nice straight stop just a bit longer. Kinda screws me up when I get on the CB900 and F2 as they both lock up with a light touch. Tell me about it... :icon_shocked: The F saved my ass last year with absolutely no help from me...in fact, I did everything completely wrong. I was running 60 on an unposted, narrow two-lane that had very little visibility in a lot of places. That was mistake #1. Approaching a blind left corner that I fucking knew had an intersecting road coming from the right at the apex. This was mistake #2. A huge, black Suburban appeared from around the corner already commited to the left turn and halfway into my lane. I had no run off on either side...all I could do was brake. I had simply made the instantaneous and really unconscious decision to reduce speed as much as possible before impact. Mistake #3 and #4 were the ones that saved my ass....I went WAY too hard on the back brake and the tire locked instantly. The rear went to the right in a typical slide. I then did the wrong thing by all accounts....I let go of the rear brake. I guess that my extreme pressure on the front is what kept the bike from snapping back up and trying to highside me. It simply straightened up and was now pointed 15 or 20 degrees left from the original path and was tracking for the grass on the left side of the road. I simply made a slight swerve correction left and then right and went around the Suburban on the left side clearing the rear bumper by only inches. I was lucky as hell nothing was behind the Suburban. I was also lucky as hell that the Suburban didn't panic and try to stop mid corner. Marvin was behind me the whole time on the FJR....you shoulda seen the look on his face when I stopped about a mile down the road just after my knees quit shaking so bad ... :icon_slap: The Bird woulda probably been wearing a bowtie on her nose... :icon_duh: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 I practiced maximum braking on the Bird this morning on my commute to work... The three large whitetail does that were in the middle of the right lane seemed very impressed that I could haul it down from 70 that fast :icon_shocked: . I used four fingers on the front and still only pulled the lever about halfway to the grip . This is the only bike I've ever had that I have not locked the rear wheel at least once under panic conditions ....she takes care of me....good girl! :icon_thumbsup: Are you sure? Try it again on the way home I've never gotten the rear to lock either. I spent one practice using rear brake only, and all I got was a nice straight stop just a bit longer. Kinda screws me up when I get on the CB900 and F2 as they both lock up with a light touch. If you want to lock the rear on the XX, you have to use the front lever. Hard front braking will unload the rear, and the LBS does the rest. That's why the rear gets that unsettled feeling coming into a corner hard on the brakes, it's often locked or close to it. I didn't even realize it was happening until Jerry asked me why I kept locking the rear going into corners. I de-linked not long after that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warp11XX Posted July 18, 2008 Share Posted July 18, 2008 I'd never have known that the rear end could feel unsettled....I weigh a bit over 300 and never have gotten that sensation. I've also never gotten the rear tire off the ground...it'll slide the front before it will lift with my weight. You guys could simulate what my bike feels by trying these exercises with the SO on the back holding a medium sized dog.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Para045 Posted July 20, 2008 Share Posted July 20, 2008 I'd never have known that the rear end could feel unsettled....I weigh a bit over 300 and never have gotten that sensation. I've also never gotten the rear tire off the ground...it'll slide the front before it will lift with my weight. You guys could simulate what my bike feels by trying these exercises with the SO on the back holding a medium sized dog.... I have never locked mine under brakes alone but have "backed the rear in" slightly by compression locking under hard braking from ~100kmh into tight RH corners Oh I am around 300lb's as well and it happened more when I had stock front fork springs Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
speedygeezer Posted July 25, 2008 Share Posted July 25, 2008 Excellent topic. To properly train one's muscles, we need to know what our maximum comfortable braking force is. Obviously, this force varies with the individual, so it must be practiced and learned. The best way to achieve this is to set up markers that measure braking distance. Approach the first marker at 30 mph and brake as hard as you are comfortable doing and come to a stop. Place the 2nd marker there. Next, approach either marker at 30 mph and try to stop before you reach the other marker. Continue this procedure until you feel you have reached your MAXIMUM comfortable braking pressure. Repeat the test from 60 mph. This pressure - using both the front brake lever and the rear brake pedal - is what we're trying to develop into an instinctive reaction, one that doesn't require or permit thinking. Pulling in the clutch lever is also recommended, just in case you don't automatically close the throttle. Don't worry about shifting down - you've already got enough going on. You're only focus is on stopping in the absolute shortest distance. Squeezing the brake should be a gradual operation rather than a panic squeeze. This prevents wheel lockup. As speed is reduced, more braking pressure can be applied so that maximum pressure is being exerted at wheel stop. This same procedure is used when braking in corners, except in reverse. Maximum braking force is applied up till turn-in, and then it is decreased gradually as the lean angle increases, all the way to the apex. This too, takes a lot of practice. On each of your next 10 rides, practice emergency braking so that you get a better feel for this procedure, and then repeat the test to see if you've improved. Keep a written record of your stopping distances so that you can compare notes. Odds are, the more you practice, the shorter your braking distances will become. And then practice emergency braking on every ride, just to keep those memory bytes alive. Make sure you initiate braking each time at the same point in relation to the marker, throw out the shortest and longest braking distances, and average the rest. The more test runs you make, the more consistent you will become and the better your results will be. As others have noted, if you frequently ride at 90 mph, practice emergency braking from that speed as well. Duh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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