Bunbun Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 Background -- yesterday I did the 32k mile maintenance and checked the valves. One was out of spec and 2 were at the far spectrum so I figured I'd go ahead and shim all 3. Pulled the cams, put in the shims and put everything back together. Put the fuel tank back on and started the bike. Well, the started works, and if I gave it gas it kind sounded like it wanted to fire here and there but nothing. I checked all connections and electrical doodads and I'd hooked everything else up correctly. That left a big question mark for the cams. So I left it last night, thoroughly pissed off and attacked it again this morning. I pulled everything apart again and the cams were basically one tooth farther back on the timing belt than they should have been. Currently it's at TDC and the way the bird's cams are, there is a notch on the sprocket you have to align with the cylinder head. After re-removal it looks like I had the marking one cam chanin link too high. (the IN mark was above the cylinder head, not directly one it) This could conceivably make the bike not start, but I'd think one link would just make it run like ass-- what do you guys say? Is this my problem or is the following question my problem? Additionally, and this is my BIG question, I'm now second guessing myself on the proper positioning of the crank when I removed everything. There are basically two positions for TDC when in relation to the cams right? One where the cam markings face each other and one where they face away from each other. I'm second guessing myself now on "did I have it in the right place when I removed the cams the FIRST time?" Is there ANY way to tell which is the 'CORRECT' TDC? Everything I know says it doesn't matter cause the cams define in and exhaust, but the book specifically said 'make sure the marks are facing out'. And like a retard, I can't remember if I did that or not. I assume I did, but then my bike isn't working so who the hell knows Please help me before I torch this fucking bike and the damn valve cover gasket that never seats. Bun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02XXCA Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 Background -- yesterday I did the 32k mile maintenance and checked the valves. One was out of spec and 2 were at the far spectrum so I figured I'd go ahead and shim all 3. Pulled the cams, put in the shims and put everything back together. Put the fuel tank back on and started the bike. Well, the started works, and if I gave it gas it kind sounded like it wanted to fire here and there but nothing. I checked all connections and electrical doodads and I'd hooked everything else up correctly. That left a big question mark for the cams. So I left it last night, thoroughly pissed off and attacked it again this morning. I pulled everything apart again and the cams were basically one tooth farther back on the timing belt than they should have been. Currently it's at TDC and the way the bird's cams are, there is a notch on the sprocket you have to align with the cylinder head. After re-removal it looks like I had the marking one cam chanin link too high. (the IN mark was above the cylinder head, not directly one it) This could conceivably make the bike not start, but I'd think one link would just make it run like ass-- what do you guys say? Is this my problem or is the following question my problem? Additionally, and this is my BIG question, I'm now second guessing myself on the proper positioning of the crank when I removed everything. There are basically two positions for TDC when in relation to the cams right? One where the cam markings face each other and one where they face away from each other. I'm second guessing myself now on "did I have it in the right place when I removed the cams the FIRST time?" Is there ANY way to tell which is the 'CORRECT' TDC? Everything I know says it doesn't matter cause the cams define in and exhaust, but the book specifically said 'make sure the marks are facing out'. And like a retard, I can't remember if I did that or not. I assume I did, but then my bike isn't working so who the hell knows Please help me before I torch this fucking bike and the damn valve cover gasket that never seats. Bun There is a mark next to the T marking and thats the TDC mark, there is secondary | mark that is an index for checking the valve clearence which is not TDC. Also on the cams ther is IN mark on the intake cam which should be level with the head on the rear of the block and the Exhaust is marked EX and it's mark should be level with the block onthe front of the engine. Due to the frame it is kind of hard to see the marks for the Intake cam as it's blocked by the frame. I believe the bolt pattern is straight up down for the cam gear to the shaft on the intake side as a secondary refernece. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 Background -- yesterday I did the 32k mile maintenance and checked the valves. One was out of spec and 2 were at the far spectrum so I figured I'd go ahead and shim all 3. Pulled the cams, put in the shims and put everything back together. Put the fuel tank back on and started the bike. Well, the started works, and if I gave it gas it kind sounded like it wanted to fire here and there but nothing. I checked all connections and electrical doodads and I'd hooked everything else up correctly. That left a big question mark for the cams. So I left it last night, thoroughly pissed off and attacked it again this morning. I pulled everything apart again and the cams were basically one tooth farther back on the timing belt than they should have been. Currently it's at TDC and the way the bird's cams are, there is a notch on the sprocket you have to align with the cylinder head. After re-removal it looks like I had the marking one cam chanin link too high. (the IN mark was above the cylinder head, not directly one it) This could conceivably make the bike not start, but I'd think one link would just make it run like ass-- what do you guys say? Is this my problem or is the following question my problem? Additionally, and this is my BIG question, I'm now second guessing myself on the proper positioning of the crank when I removed everything. There are basically two positions for TDC when in relation to the cams right? One where the cam markings face each other and one where they face away from each other. I'm second guessing myself now on "did I have it in the right place when I removed the cams the FIRST time?" Is there ANY way to tell which is the 'CORRECT' TDC? Everything I know says it doesn't matter cause the cams define in and exhaust, but the book specifically said 'make sure the marks are facing out'. And like a retard, I can't remember if I did that or not. I assume I did, but then my bike isn't working so who the hell knows Please help me before I torch this fucking bike and the damn valve cover gasket that never seats. Bun A few things. With the crank at tdc,,,#1,,, the valves on #1 will both be closed,(i and e) and the lines on the cam gears even with the head. I glue the gasket to the valve cover, and let it dry, and lube the surface that contacts the head. Just to make it easier from then on. Most of the time I get the plug wires off the plug they go on. Or the positive coil wire on the negitive. After I get the cams in and the cct in, before I put the the valve cover on. I will turn the engine with the crank bolt and a torque wrench for two turns and check the above relationship of tdc and cam valve opening and closing and marks to head. If the torque gets above 40 ft lb, something is wrong. So turn it slow. Sounds like you know these things but always good to see them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 Is it possible you assembled it with the cams 180 degrees off? That'll get you what you're talking about, don't ask me how I know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunbun Posted May 25, 2008 Author Share Posted May 25, 2008 ok so good news and bad news... Got the bike running again -- i was a half a link off with the cam sprocket-on-chain placement. Yay! Thanks Quad-- rolling it around a couple times helped significantly. Ok now for the bad news. I run it up in rpm then cut the throttle and it sounds like a nut is loose and rattling around. Idles fine, runs up fine but when cutting the throttle the box o' rocks sound. And I'm pretty sure it's not the CCT. I replaced that a year or so back and unless winding it in and out will kill it, it should hopefully still be fine. And then it kinda sounds like its located more towards the front of the head but I can't tell 100%. I opened up the little cam light thingy on the right side of the cylinder case to check the tension on the front part of the timing chain. I put a tiny screw driver in there and was able to move the chain about 1/8 inch. Possibly a little more. When i put the exhaust cam in, I made damn sure it was tight, however I'm wondering if it didn't 'loosen up' when I tightened down the cam. Any ideas on how much I should or shouldn't be able to move the front part of the timing chain through the 'inspection hatch'? I assume this is what the problem probably is but I REALLY don't wanna rip the bike apart for the 4th time today in two days. But if I gotta, I gotta. Ideas and suggestions anyone? Or is it possible I'm just being overly sensitive and this is how it normally sounds? Bun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted May 25, 2008 Share Posted May 25, 2008 Take the screw out of the cct where you back off the spring. And instead of counter-clockwise go clockwise and with a little tension rotate the crank forward and backward a little and see if you feel any movement in the cct screw. Some times the ratchet is in the middle. And sometimes warming makes it go away. If it is the cct tension. Some times I think heavier oil and AMSOIL helps Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunbun Posted May 26, 2008 Author Share Posted May 26, 2008 Take the screw out of the cct where you back off the spring. And instead of counter-clockwise go clockwise and with a little tension rotate the crank forward and backward a little and see if you feel any movement in the cct screw. Some times the ratchet is in the middle. And sometimes warming makes it go away. If it is the cct tension. Some times I think heavier oil and AMSOIL helps Cool, I'll do that tomorrow. Do you think the 'free play' I described in the front part of the timing chain is ok? Also, I assume the sound I described is normal and I'm just being hyper-sensitive...? I guess the only thing I'm REALLY worried about is not getting the chain in front tight enough... cause that means I need to tear it apart again I'll definitely check the CCT to make sure it's not dead-- thanks for the tip! Bun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CxBXR Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 +1 on cct needs to run a little bit before becoming tight again..... Also be 100% sure you tightned the cam bridges to the proper spec, if unsure go back into it, you dont want to waste the engine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 The slack in the front is due to the cams having force placed on them by the springs and the engine not running causing the slack at rest. One of the coolest was http://www.smokeyyunick.com/and the Optitron a strobe light and high speed camera and electric motor and windows in the motor to see what it looked like with all the pieces at speed. The push rods flex and studs for the rockers valves and springs and timing chain and cams moving around and changing timing. some of the best reading out there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunbun Posted May 26, 2008 Author Share Posted May 26, 2008 The slack in the front is due to the cams having force placed on them by the springs and the engine not running causing the slack at rest. One of the coolest was http://www.smokeyyunick.com/and the Optitron a strobe light and high speed camera and electric motor and windows in the motor to see what it looked like with all the pieces at speed. The push rods flex and studs for the rockers valves and springs and timing chain and cams moving around and changing timing. some of the best reading out there ok good deal. You have put my mind at ease seems like everything is likely normal then. It didn't seem like an excessive amount of slack but I've never had to do this on the bird. Additionally, I did the CCT test you mentioned up above and I think it may be having some problems. At idle everything is fine but once it gets up to 4k rpm it has the sound for a moment. I was watching the screw in the CCT and it would jump a bit and not adjust smooth smoothly. During that time I could also hear the box of rocks sound. I still hear it from the front of the engine, but I can't isolate it and could easily be from the CCT area since they are pretty close together. I'm going to check the front of the engine in a couple different positions to make sure there isn't excessive slack anywhere else and order a new CCT just for the hell of it. Book looks pretty cool -- think I'm gonna order it as well. Thanks! Bun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodealdrive Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 Is it possible you assembled it with the cams 180 degrees off? That'll get you what you're talking about, don't ask me how I know... yes, it does run and I too found out first hand. Bunbun, everybody's given you great advice, as usual around here, but here's what I did when I re-installed my new cct. CBRxxquad is right, take up the slack before you release the new cct. Roll the engine over clockwise with the lower cover off, then watch the cam chain and roll it counter clockwise and you'll see the slack at the guide on the left. (toward back on engine) Pull the pin on the cct when it has the most slack in the chain. I hope that explanation makes sense. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bunbun Posted May 26, 2008 Author Share Posted May 26, 2008 Is it possible you assembled it with the cams 180 degrees off? That'll get you what you're talking about, don't ask me how I know... yes, it does run and I too found out first hand. Bunbun, everybody's given you great advice, as usual around here, but here's what I did when I re-installed my new cct. CBRxxquad is right, take up the slack before you release the new cct. Roll the engine over clockwise with the lower cover off, then watch the cam chain and roll it counter clockwise and you'll see the slack at the guide on the left. (toward back on engine) Pull the pin on the cct when it has the most slack in the chain. I hope that explanation makes sense. What do you mean by the 'lower cover'? Not the valve cover I assume? Bun Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twodealdrive Posted May 26, 2008 Share Posted May 26, 2008 What do you mean by the 'lower cover'? Not the valve cover I assume? Bun sorry for the confusion, it's the cover that seals the cam chain around the crankshaft. It's on the clutch side and the round disc you unscrewed to check the timing marks, there's 6 or 8 8mm bolts holding it on. Take that off and you can see the cct pushing on the cam chain guide and also see the amount of slack when you roll the engine back counter clockwise. When you get the greatest amount of slack, pull the pin on your new cct. Or try it with the old one and see what that does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted May 29, 2008 Share Posted May 29, 2008 The slack in the front is due to the cams having force placed on them by the springs and the engine not running causing the slack at rest. One of the coolest was http://www.smokeyyunick.com/and the Optitron a strobe light and high speed camera and electric motor and windows in the motor to see what it looked like with all the pieces at speed. The push rods flex and studs for the rockers valves and springs and timing chain and cams moving around and changing timing. some of the best reading out there found some video of what I was talking about Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhawkxx Posted May 29, 2008 Share Posted May 29, 2008 That Spintron video is just cool! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.