Chassis setup

[cbrxxquad]

Ok, I have done some measurements to get started.

Specs:

2001 Cbr 1100 xx 6000 miles

2007 zx14 forks triples

2007 limited zx 14 wheels front and rear same except rear is 6 inch wide and 190/50/17 pr2 tire (xx 180/55/17 d208)

(circumference is same for both xx and zx tires mounted at 77.75 inches

xx forks

center line axle to top of cap 30"

zx forks

center line axle to top of cap 29"

current

xx cl axle to bottom of frame 20"

zx cl axle to frame bottom 19.5"

sag front bike and rider

2.00" no preload

.875 total preload

Sag rear bike and rider.625

fork angle 25 deg

( was surprised expected 22 )

Anybody know the advertised between the two?

Pre load turns 15

is the adjuster on the top of the forks compression or rebound.

[EVLXX]

Looks like you have 2 things messy with you. Set-up and Sag.

... I would suggests trying to gett the ZXXX set-up to factory XX specs, as far as the CL of the front axle to Triple tree relation ship goes first.

And if you can only get half of the Bar clamps on to the top of the Fork tubes.. that's OK... They'll hold.

Then You Sag measurments are way off... and this is probably causing your Rake angle to decrease rapidly. Your Sag measurements need to be the same.

? Did you measure the angle with the ride on the bike, with the 2"/0.6" of Sag relationship.

...

Oh and don't quote me in that other thread about the rake being 22.5.... that was a IIRC... but I'll double check if you need me to.

[Redbird]

is the adjuster on the top of the forks compression or rebound.

Compression.

Stock XX rake is listed at 25 degrees, with 99mm of trail.

How are you measuring sag?

[cbrxxquad]

I am sensing that I may be have been misunderstood, or misspoke in Para's thread.

I only had the weaving at high speed with no preload on the forks.(0) I had no weaving at the 10 turns that the forks came to me at. It did turn in quicker than a xx, and the only comment I got was from Jay that it was to quick for him. Not something that he liked, rather than bad, is the way I took it. Steve liked it there. A lot. At the "all in" preload setting (16 turns)I think it felt like Porters did with the forks at the stock setting and the 6mm shim. Not like his at the forks lowered and shim. That was more like mine at the 10 turn setting.

What I am saying is that setting the preload it runs the full gambit of change. The weaving is at over 100 and is just a barely.

... I would suggests trying to get the ZXXX set-up to factory XX specs, as far as the CL of the front axle to Triple tree relation ship goes first.

And if you can only get half of the Bar clamps on to the top of the Fork tubes.. that's OK... They'll hold.

The setting I have it at is the zx factory location.

I can put it at the xx location without any effect to the bars as they do not connect to the forks.

? Did you measure the angle with the ride on the bike, with the 2"/0.6" of Sag relationship.

Angle measured without rider and no preload, 2" sag, on center-stand and spacer under front tire to level. so no load on tires or compression.

(After reading this and thinking about it I think I had the front to high, I put a board under it till the back was touching. Think I should try to do it with me on it on the ground. Won't be a lot of diff, but some. Should have had boards the same size front and back.

How are you measuring sag?

On center stand, no load.

front

Mark with Sharpe under seal on fork tube.

rear

measure with tape from center-line of rear axle to point on body mark, equilateral triangle to pivot of swing-arm.

Take off stand, get on bike. Load and unload and reload and remark and remeasure with help.

[EVLXX]

You need to use the Pre-load adjustment on the front and rear to set your sag...

not for ride hieght or steering geometery corrections.

IIRC I have .75" of Sag front and Rear. (Like a Race Sag)

Then adjust your Ride hieght and geometery,

Then double check your Sag again,

Then go for the finally tuning with the Compression and Rebound dampening.

[cbrxxquad]

Got it.

So the preload adjustment is not something that is normally a change made for riding conditions by the same rider? Set and forget?

Was thinking some changing was typical for riding style. IE, touring or twisties, two up.

Was looking at a wing nut type of adjuster for the pl so I could adjust on the fly.like this

[EVLXX]

Yes and No.

For me I set it and forget it.

But one could change it each time they go out under different riding conditions, as you mentioned, if it were made easy enough to change, but I'm of the opinion that's just a lot of unnecessary work.

As far a Pre-load goes... there's 2 general accepted types. Street Sag, which is about 30% of the total travel, and Race Sag, which is usually Half that or around 15-20% Total travel.

Since I want to get used to my bike under hard riding conditions I set it up for race Sag... which makes Pounding the Slab (interstates) a little more on the Harsh side, But when I finally get to the twisties... I'm good to go.

I set my front first, because it's harder to do on the Bird, than the rear, but in your case you might want to go the other way round.

Somewhere there was a very good article on how to set up your Suspension.... and I think it got posted here once upon a time, but... I don't know where that is, nor do I have the time to try and find it for you... sorry.

But it does sound like your on the right track now.

[porterb123]

Somewhere there was a very good article on how to set up your Suspension.... and I think it got posted here once upon a time, but... I don't know where that is, nor do I have the time to try and find it for you... sorry.

http://www.ohlins.com/Motorcycle/Settingup...59/Default.aspx

Here's some info

[Redbird]

As far a Pre-load goes... there's 2 general accepted types. Street Sag, which is about 30% of the total travel, and Race Sag, which is usually Half that or around 15-20% Total travel.

I've never heard anyone recommend settings that stiff. Yes, you go on the stiffer side for "race" settings, but 25% is the lowest I've ever heard recommended- and unless you're actually racing, you'll probably be happier and have a better handling bike in the 30-35% range. The goal is to be in the center of the suspension range while leaned over in a corner. Your weight gets you part of the way there, the Gs generated by the cornering itself gets you the rest of the way. At 15-20% sag you'd have to be pushing waaay hard to get into that sweet spot, or you're running the wrong springs.

[EVLXX]

As far a Pre-load goes... there's 2 general accepted types. Street Sag, which is about 30% of the total travel, and Race Sag, which is usually Half that or around 15-20% Total travel.

I've never heard anyone recommend settings that stiff. Yes, you go on the stiffer side for "race" settings, but 25% is the lowest I've ever heard recommended- and unless you're actually racing, you'll probably be happier and have a better handling bike in the 30-35% range. The goal is to be in the center of the suspension range while leaned over in a corner. Your weight gets you part of the way there, the Gs generated by the cornering itself gets you the rest of the way. At 15-20% sag you'd have to be pushing waaay hard to get into that sweet spot, or you're running the wrong springs.

Your right... my bad... So I went and found what I remember reading...

and copied here...

Reproduced from race-tech.com

What's all this ruckus about suspension these days? It seems everyone is clued in that suspension setup can be a key to riding fast and safely, but how do you do it? No matter what shock or fork you have, they all require proper adjustment to work to their maximum potential. Suspension tuning isn't rocket science, and if you follow step-by-step procedures you can make remarkable improvements in your bike's handling characteristics.

The first step to setting up any bike is to set the spring sag and determine if you have the correct-rate springs. Spring sag is the amount the springs compress between fully topped out and fully loaded with the rider on board in riding position. It is also referred to as static ride height or static sag. My company, Race Tech, (909/594-7755) has an advanced method of checking spring sag that I'll describe.

If you've ever measured sag before, you may have noticed that if you check it three or four times, you can get three or four times, you can get three or four different numbers without changed anything. We'll tell you why this occurs and how to handle it.

REAR END

Step 1: Extend the suspension completely by getting the wheel off the ground. It helps to have a few friends around. On bikes with sidestands the bike can usually be carefully rocked up on the stand to unload the suspension. Most race stands will not work because the suspension will still be loaded by resting on the swingarm rather than the wheel. Measure the distance from the axle vertically to some point on the chassis (metric figures are easiest and more precise; Figure 1). Mark this reference point because you'll need to refer to it again. This measurement is L1. If the measurement is not exactly vertical the sag numbers will be inaccurate (too low).

Step 2: Take the bike off the stand and put the rider on board in riding position. Have a third person balance the bike from the front. If accuracy is important to you, you must take friction of the linkage into account. This is where our procedure is different: We take two additional measurements. First, push down on the rear end about 25mm (1") and let it extend very slowly.

Where it stops, measure the distance between the axle and the mark on chassis again. If there were no drag in the linkage the bike would come up a little further. It's important that you do not bounce! This measurement is L2.

Step 3: Have your assistant lift up on the rear of the bike about 25mm and let it down very slowly. Where it stops, measure it. If there were no drag it would drop a little further. Remember, don't bounce! This measurement it L3.

Step 4: The spring sag is in the middle of these two measurements. In fact, if there were no drag in the linkage, L2 and L3 would be the same. To get the actual sag figure you find the midpoint by averaging the two numbers and subtracting them from the fully extended measurement L1: static spring sag=L1 -[(L2 + L3) / 2].

Step 5: Adjust the preload with whatever method applies to your bike. Spring collars are common, and some benefit from the use of special tools. In a pinch you can use a blunt chisel to unlock the collars and turn the main adjusting collar. If you have too much sag you need more preload; if you have too little sag you need less preload. For road race bikes, rear sag is typically 25 to 30mm. Street riders usually use 30 to 35mm. Bikes set up for the track are compromise when ridden on the street. The firmer settings commonly used on the tract are generally not recommended (or desirable) for road work.

You might notice the Sag Master measuring tool (available from Race Tech) in the pictures. It's a special tool made to assist you in measuring sag by allowing you to read sag directly without subtracting. It can also be used as a standard tape measure.

Measuring front-end sag is very similar to the rear. However, it' much more critical to take seal drag into account on the front end because it is more pronounced.

FRONT END

Step 1: Extend the fork completely and measure from the wiper (the dust seal atop the slider) to the bottom of the triple clamp (or lower fork casting on inverted forks; Figure 2). This measurement is L1.

Step 2: Take the bike off the sidestand, and put the rider on board in riding position. Get and assistant to balance the bike from the rear, then push down on the front end and let it extend very slowly.

Where it stops, measure the distance between the wiper and the bottom of the triple clamp again. Do not bounce. This measurement is L2.

Step 3: Lift up on the front end and let it drop very slowly. Where it stops, measure again. Don't bounce. This measurement is L3. Once again, L2 and L3 are different due to stiction or drag in the seals and bushings, which is particularly high for telescopic front ends.

Step 4: Just as with the front, halfway between L2 and L3 is where the sag would be with no drag or stiction. Therefore L2 and L3 must be averaged and subtracted from L1 to calculate true spring sag: static spring sag=L1 - [l2 + l3) / 2].

Step 5: To adjust sag use the preload adjusters, if available, or vary the length of the preload spaces inside the fork.

Street bikes run between 25 and 33 percent of their total travel, which equates to 30 to 35mm. Roadrace bikes usually run between 25 and 30mm.

This method of checking sag and taking stiction into account also allows you to check the drag of the linkage and seals. It follows that the greater the difference between the measurements (pushing down and pulling up), the worse the stiction. A good linkage (rear sag) has less than 3mm (0.12") difference, and a bad one has more than 10mm (0.39"). Good forks have less than 15mm difference, and we've seen forks with more than 50mm. (Gee, I wonder why they're harsh?)

It's important to stress that there is no magic number. If you like the feel of the bike with less or more sag than these guidelines, great. Your personal sag and front-to-rear sag bias will depend on chassis geometry, track or road conditions, tire selection and rider weight and riding preference.

Using different sag front and rear will have huge effect on steering characteristics. More sag on the front or less sag on the rear will make the bike turn more slowly. Increasing sag will also decrease bottoming resistance, though spring rate has a bigger effect than sag. Racers often use less sag to keep the bike clearance, and since roadraces work greater than we see on the street, they require a stiffer setup. Of course, setting spring sag is only first step of dialing in your suspension, so stay tuned for future articles on spring rates and damping.

-Paul Thede

[cbrxxquad]

Thanks for the links.

this was cool

rt popup link

PRELOAD - RELAXED & ACTUAL (sport bikes)

Back-in-the-day life was easy. Measuring preload was simple. (Refer to figure at right). All you did was measure the Free Length of the spring and subtracted the Set Length to calculate Preload.

• Preload - the length the spring is compressed from its Free Length when it is installed with the suspension fully extended.
• Free Length - uninstalled relaxed length
• Set Length - installed length

Preload = Free Length - Set Length

Life is harder now (tell mom and dad). The latest development for sport bikes is "long, soft, top-out springs". This means when you install the spring, the fork (or shock) grows (gets longer). Along with that the Set Length grows so the amount of preload you calculated is incorrect (the actual Installed Preload is less than calculated)!

In the old days the Top-out Spring was so stiff the fork barely grew at all so we didn't have to account for this.

What to do, what to do?

Let's define some new terms:

• Relaxed Set Length - the measured installed length without the spring installed (easy to measure)
• Relaxed Preload - the calculated Preload using the Relaxed Set Length (easy to calculate)

Relaxed Preload = Free Length - Relaxed Set Length

• Actual Installed Set Length - the length of the spring installed (hard to measure)
• Actual Preload - the length the spring is compressed from its Free Length when it is installed with the suspension fully extended. (hard to calculate because the Actual Set Length has grown)

Actual Preload = Free Length - Actual Installed Set Length

When getting Preload recommendations from the DVS on Race Tech's website we give Relaxed Preload because it is much easier. We usually give a note in the Product and Valving Search to notify you that you are dealing with long soft top-out springs. The difference can be as much as 40 mm.

In most cases we recommend replacing the stock "long, soft, top-out springs" with our Reactive Spring Series. They are not as stiff as the old days but are not nearly as soft or as long as the new fangled ones. Testing has shown the proper top-out spring can drastically affect traction particularly when leaned over in the turns.

NOTE: Our G2-R 25mm Cartridge Kits also have this technology and grow 5 to 6 mm.

[EVLXX]

Well ?

What have you been doing... digging for water ?

[cbrxxquad]

Well ?

What have you been doing... digging for water ?

LOL,,,well almost, how'ed you know.

Set the preload to .625 front and back!

Messin with dampening, like it soft, but how would I know with nothing but hundred miles between turns.

Washed both bikes, pulled weeds, mowed , tilled the garden, watered, killed weeds, killed weeds, poisoned weeds, watered, mowed weeds.

Vicki's got laryngitis, sure is quiet around here.

[EVLXX]

Good I guess... .625 seems a little stiff but... I really shouldn't say because it has been so long since I have done mine I don't remember what the final numbers where.

Sorry I can't help you more with the Dampening... but some of us don't have that adjust ability. But, have you seen the Mazda commercial.... the one where they're going rounds on the Highway Cloverleaf.... might work for you... if you can find a slightly bumpy one.

I didn't get that much done yesterday... just changed the Oil and rotated the tires on the Car, went to see a movie, came back sweept the garage out, and stared at some exhaust parts.. trying to make up my mind what to do next... and didn't get shit done after that.

And it's never quiet around here.... with a 5 year old.

[XXTi]

Here's a link to another suspension set-up guide. I posted this in the "Weaving" thread too.

Suspension Set-up Guide

[cbrxxquad]

Here's a link to another suspension set-up guide. I posted this in the "Weaving" thread too.

Suspension Set-up Guide

I must say Jim, that is very good,,,very good. Thanks, a plethora of information.

Tires started out at 38, and the rear warmed to 42 front to 40.

Not, enough dampening and I get chatter on the front stopping hard. I really like more sag than I should, but I guess that is related to no shim.

A quandery, I guess, shim or drop the forks more, so I can set the sag corect. The article does dispute some info. rebound on the top, compression on the bottom and preload is replaceable with sliding in the forks.

Now to the rear.

[XXTi]

I'm glad you enjoyed the link Stan. The rebound adjustment is on the top and the compression adjustment is on the bottom of my Ducati forks and on any other bike I've seen with adjustable damping. Your Kawasaki forks may be different though.

Another point. Adjusting preload on your springs is the way to set your sag, not moving the forks in the triple trees. (I don't agree when the article says that moving the forks in the triple trees is a substitute for preload adjustment.) Sag is the difference between fully unloaded suspension and the travel you get when you sit on your bike. Adjusting the spring preload is the way to change your sag on either front or rear suspension. Your new fork may have an adjustable preload. It should be a large nut at the top of the fork. (See the diagram in the link I posted.) If your forks do not have a preload adjuster, you will have to change the length of the spacers in your fork tubes. Your rear shock definitely has a preload adjuster.

[cbrxxquad]

I'm glad you enjoyed the link Stan. The rebound adjustment is on the top and the compression adjustment is on the bottom of my Ducati forks and on any other bike I've seen with adjustable damping. Your Kawasaki forks may be different though.

Another point. Adjusting preload on your springs is the way to set your sag, not moving the forks in the triple trees. (I don't agree when the article says that moving the forks in the triple trees is a substitute for preload adjustment.) Sag is the difference between fully unloaded suspension and the travel you get when you sit on your bike. Adjusting the spring preload is the way to change your sag on either front or rear suspension. Your new fork may have an adjustable preload. It should be a large nut at the top of the fork. (See the diagram in the link I posted.) If your forks do not have a preload adjuster, you will have to change the length of the spacers in your fork tubes. Your rear shock definitely has a preload adjuster.

Yes, Jim it does have the preload adjuster. And I have not determined if the compression is on the top or bottom on the zx forks. But, I would not argue that Redbird knows what it is. That would be dumb on so many levels. I was poking. I think he knows. But, I am worried that he has not been back to correct the article.

But the tire pressure thing, now that was a learning experience.

Na, I asked these guys cause I can trust them to take care of me. I kind of go off on some tangents to get to know something, and eat information before I work it out to function. I have a way of using the accepted design, such as the location of the forks in the trees, and wither to setup xx or zx. I am pushing the zx location instead of the shim, and I am not sure why, cause I don't know. These guys do, they have the experience. But, to know what they do I have to feel both ways, just like they did.

But, it does seam to me that adjusting it changes the handling for normal riding much like sliding the forks in the trees. The ride height changes. That is what I have been trying to say. I think that what I want is to lower the forks some more and set the sag at the 25mm. To get the ease of turn-in that I like and corner holding lean. Moving it around, the preload, give me a feel for where I want it. Of course, it is not corect for sag. but the spring don't know it.

I know the bird settings are to sluggish for my taste. The shim would correct this by decreasing the fork angle, but leaving the forks to what the factory has on the zx is more deg caster in the front and does the same thing. It feels like I am in the middle of the sluggish xx front at one end of the pl adjustment and weaving at the other.

I might be wrong, but in my mind I think I know what I want. These guys know that and don't mind talking about the diff.

I think...

With the sag at .625 it is too tight. I backed it off , the pl, making it more sag and liked it better. Will measure it and see where it is and post it.

[XXTi]

Good luck with your bike Stan. I hope you get it adjusted just like you want it.

[Redbird]

is the adjuster on the top of the forks compression or rebound.

Compression.

I'm an idiot. I was poking around and came across this thread, read my own words and said "what the fuck?"

Rebound adjustment is on top of the forks. I'm surprised no one corrected my dumb ass.

[cbrxxquad]

is the adjuster on the top of the forks compression or rebound.

Compression.

I'm an idiot. I was poking around and came across this thread, read my own words and said "what the fuck?"

Rebound adjustment is on top of the forks. I'm surprised no one corrected my dumb ass.

Not usually a wise action.

Going to edit yourself? LOL

[rideonXX]

There is a gent out here on the west coast that is a suspension 'Guru' by the name of Dave Moss. He has a series of short video's on YouTube that should prove to be a great time investment to watch. He goes to tracks over 200 days a year and tunes suspension on over 3K bikes a year---plus races himself---so he does know whereof he speaks and is kind enough to share. Here is a link to his site which will have a link to YouTube----see what you think. Happy trails, kel

http://www.feelthetrack.com/

[rideonXX]

To save you a little time----here are a couple of links to videos I mentioned----that cover a bunch in a short time window. That way you can see if you think there is anything of value for you.

Guys planning on doing the RiderXX outing at Jennings may find these useful and perhaps save having an unpleasant day.

Happy trails, kel

[Redbird]

Going to edit yourself? LOL

Nah, just editing it seemed to sneaky. I'll leave the proof that I'm a moron here for all to see.

[Chewtoy]

Was poking around and saw this today:

http://www.sportrider.com/bikes/146_0804_k...300r/index.html

I have no idea if this is good, bad, or indifferent, caveat emptor:

Per the article:

Suggested Suspension Settings

FRONT

Spring preload: 3 lines showing; rebound damping: 9 clicks out from full stiff; compression damping: 6 clicks out from full stiff

REAR

Spring preload: 12mm thread showing; rebound damping: 0.25 turn out from full stiff; compression damping: 0.5 turn out from full stiff