turbo50jeff Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 I really don't understand why so many of you are measuring static sag, total sag with rider and gear ect.. Before you change the Hyperpro springs. It doesn't matter! Everyone makes it more complicated than it is! The ONLY measurement is what is the chasis ride height from the factory with rider front and rear. After the install of the springs you need to set it to be the same as before. Whether you need move the forks up the tripple clamp 10mm or 30mm it doesn't matter. As long as it's the chasis height is the same as before when it was stock. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
testrider Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 So from what you are saying, if I remove my fork springs, put in 2 solid steel bars inside the fork tube, then adjust the chassis to have the same height as before, it'll be fine? Jeez, I think you just save me from buying a set of new springs, as I already have a few solid steel bars sitting in my garage that I can use :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcrich Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 I really don't understand why so many of you are measuring static sag, total sag with rider and gear ect.. Before you change the Hyperpro springs. It doesn't matter! Everyone makes it more complicated than it is! The ONLY measurement is what is the chasis ride height from the factory with rider front and rear. After the install of the springs you need to set it to be the same as before. Whether you need move the forks up the tripple clamp 10mm or 30mm it doesn't matter. As long as it's the chasis height is the same as before when it was stock. I think the deal is; as you're riding down the road steady state, you want to have 3/4 of the suspension travel under you, and 1/4 of the travel above you, so you are using the suspension correctly... If rider sag didn't matter at all, and all you had to do was move the forks up and down, then you could up the preload to the point of being completely topped out with you sitting on it right? or you could go the other way, and have no spring at all, and be sitting on the stops all the time? They are both extreme, but if you aren't 1/4 away from the top, you get closer to either of those extremes... but what the fuck do I know? Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dion Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 I really don't understand why so many of you are measuring static sag, total sag with rider and gear ect.. Before you change the Hyperpro springs. It doesn't matter! Everyone makes it more complicated than it is! The ONLY measurement is what is the chasis ride height from the factory with rider front and rear. After the install of the springs you need to set it to be the same as before. Whether you need move the forks up the tripple clamp 10mm or 30mm it doesn't matter. As long as it's the chasis height is the same as before when it was stock. uhmm, No. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo50jeff Posted April 28, 2006 Author Share Posted April 28, 2006 I really don't understand why so many of you are measuring static sag, total sag with rider and gear ect.. Before you change the Hyperpro springs. It doesn't matter! Everyone makes it more complicated than it is! The ONLY measurement is what is the chasis ride height from the factory with rider front and rear. After the install of the springs you need to set it to be the same as before. Whether you need move the forks up the tripple clamp 10mm or 30mm it doesn't matter. As long as it's the chasis height is the same as before when it was stock. uhmm, No. Why not? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 I really don't understand why so many of you are measuring static sag, total sag with rider and gear ect.. Before you change the Hyperpro springs. It doesn't matter! Everyone makes it more complicated than it is! The ONLY measurement is what is the chasis ride height from the factory with rider front and rear. After the install of the springs you need to set it to be the same as before. Whether you need move the forks up the tripple clamp 10mm or 30mm it doesn't matter. As long as it's the chasis height is the same as before when it was stock. uhmm, No. Why not? Do some reading Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted April 28, 2006 Share Posted April 28, 2006 Actually, from what I gather, sag is the SINGLE most inportant thing as far as suspension setup... Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo50jeff Posted April 29, 2006 Author Share Posted April 29, 2006 Actually, from what I gather, sag is the SINGLE most inportant thing as far as suspension setup... Mike Why does static sag matter? The only measurement that should is the one with the rider on the bike. If the static sag was say 25mm stock and 35mm sag with rider and say 500mm from the ground to a fixed point on the chasis and then 10mm static sag and 27mm sag with rider and 520mm from the ground to the chasis after the springs then isn't the only measurement that's important the ride height? You're just looking to keep the stance of the bike the same front to rear. Correct? You just need to raise the forks whatever is needed to get back to the original factory measurement to keep the stance of the bike the same. I could see everyone having a point if you could adjust the preload in the front, but it's fixed. You just have to do the same for the rear. But in the rear the preload is adjustable for ride height. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackhawkxx Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 I could see everyone having a point if you could adjust the preload in the front, but it's fixed. How do you think people change the sag? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo50jeff Posted April 29, 2006 Author Share Posted April 29, 2006 I could see everyone having a point if you could adjust the preload in the front, but it's fixed. How do you think people change the sag? You just move the forks up and down the tripple clamps to obtain the desired ride height. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shovelstrokeed Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Apparantly a little knowledge is a dangerous thing and no knowledge even more so. All discussion of sag is moot until spring rates are set correctly for the bike/rider combination. Sag fine tunes this and can be used to adjust (slightly) for differing loads/road conditions. Finally, compression and rebound damping are set to suit rider preference in re control of the wheel motion generated by the springs and their reactions to road irregularities, cornering loads and chassis pitch from acceleration and braking. Ride height variations may also be adjusted via shock length/mounting position and sliding the forks up or down in the triples to vary the pitch of the chassis and thus, steering geometry but they have no effect on suspension reaction. Huge effect on steering and stability, but that is another matter altogether and one best left to those with a more thorough understanding of suspension geometry and its effect on steering, traction and stability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in PA Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 http://www.sasbk.co.za/suspension_setup_guidelines.htm Do some reading NOW my young padawan, the force will be revealed to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dion Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Nice find Pete. Hey Tim, wadda ya think. Is that worth plagerizing and making sticky? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Actually, from what I gather, sag is the SINGLE most inportant thing as far as suspension setup... Mike Why does static sag matter? The only measurement that should is the one with the rider on the bike. If the static sag was say 25mm stock and 35mm sag with rider and say 500mm from the ground to a fixed point on the chasis and then 10mm static sag and 27mm sag with rider and 520mm from the ground to the chasis after the springs then isn't the only measurement that's important the ride height? You're just looking to keep the stance of the bike the same front to rear. Correct? You just need to raise the forks whatever is needed to get back to the original factory measurement to keep the stance of the bike the same. I could see everyone having a point if you could adjust the preload in the front, but it's fixed. You just have to do the same for the rear. But in the rear the preload is adjustable for ride height. Ride height and sag are two totally different things. Though sag may effect ride height, it's a different animal. Ajust sag for your weight, then fine tune the ride height. Your mistake is apparently thinking ride height and sag are one and the same. Absolutlely not the case. Sag sets where the suspension is in it's total travel with the rider aboard. Once that's sorted by ajusting spring preload front (via spacer length) and rear (via that double lock ring on the stock shock), you ajust ride height by moving the triple clamp and/or ajusting the rear via shims (or shock length if you have an aftermarket shock that is ride height ajustable). As Ed has alluded to, starting this entire process with the correct spring rate is important as well. Pete's link is an excellent place to educate yourself a bit. Dion, I'll leave any decicions on plagerism to the people who may get in trouble for it, namely Carlos. I can't do it when I'm not the one who would get in trouble. The link will do for now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
turbo50jeff Posted April 29, 2006 Author Share Posted April 29, 2006 Actually, from what I gather, sag is the SINGLE most inportant thing as far as suspension setup... Mike Why does static sag matter? The only measurement that should is the one with the rider on the bike. If the static sag was say 25mm stock and 35mm sag with rider and say 500mm from the ground to a fixed point on the chasis and then 10mm static sag and 27mm sag with rider and 520mm from the ground to the chasis after the springs then isn't the only measurement that's important the ride height? You're just looking to keep the stance of the bike the same front to rear. Correct? You just need to raise the forks whatever is needed to get back to the original factory measurement to keep the stance of the bike the same. I could see everyone having a point if you could adjust the preload in the front, but it's fixed. You just have to do the same for the rear. But in the rear the preload is adjustable for ride height. Ride height and sag are two totally different things. Though sag may effect ride height, it's a different animal. Ajust sag for your weight, then fine tune the ride height. Your mistake is apparently thinking ride height and sag are one and the same. Absolutlely not the case. Sag sets where the suspension is in it's total travel with the rider aboard. Once that's sorted by ajusting spring preload front (via spacer length) and rear (via that double lock ring on the stock shock), you ajust ride height by moving the triple clamp and/or ajusting the rear via shims (or shock length if you have an aftermarket shock that is ride height ajustable). As Ed has alluded to, starting this entire process with the correct spring rate is important as well. Pete's link is an excellent place to educate yourself a bit. Dion, I'll leave any decicions on plagerism to the people who may get in trouble for it, namely Carlos. I can't do it when I'm not the one who would get in trouble. The link will do for now. Hyperpro doesn't say anything about adjusting sag with any spacers. The front forks have no preload adjustment. I understand how you can do so by creating a spacer out of large washers or pvc and inserting them into the front forks. What's wrong with just putting the Hyperpro springs in the forks and sliding the forks up the clamps 10mm(which they suggest). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jcrich Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Hyperpro doesn't say anything about adjusting sag with any spacers. The front forks have no preload adjustment. I understand how you can do so by creating a spacer out of large washers or pvc and inserting them into the front forks. What's wrong with just putting the Hyperpro springs in the forks and sliding the forks up the clamps 10mm(which they suggest). Go ahead and try that and let us know how that works out, after you get out of the hospital. Again you are talking about ride height not suspension travel within the forks. You obviously have not read anything that was put forth here in an attempt to educate you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02XXCA Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Hyperpro doesn't say anything about adjusting sag with any spacers. The front forks have no preload adjustment. I understand how you can do so by creating a spacer out of large washers or pvc and inserting them into the front forks. What's wrong with just putting the Hyperpro springs in the forks and sliding the forks up the clamps 10mm(which they suggest). Go ahead and try that and let us know how that works out, after you get out of the hospital. Again you are talking about ride height not suspension travel within the forks. You obviously have not read anything that was put forth here in an attempt to educate you. In the one link that substituting some fork movement throught the triple clamps could be substituted for forks without preload: I believe on the UK XX site somebody has made replaceable preload fork caps for our bike if your interested. Lets Get Busy with how to adjust Suspension Setup Types of Adjustment On most forks, Rebound Damping (1) - the screw adjustment at the top is rebound damping (not to be confused with the larger spring preload adjuster) Preload adjuster (3)- Is the larger nut on the top of the front forks (not to be confused with the smaller rebound damping). Movement of the Forks within the Triple Clamps, can be substituted for the preload adjuster. Compression Damping (2) - the one on the bottom near the axle is compression damping. Before putting in my wilber fork springs I had already had slid my forks up in the triple clamps about 10 mm which made it turn a little bit due to higher rake angle, although a little front ride hide was compromised. Alot of us had shimmed the rear shock to improve turn in prior to installing the wilber rear shock which had extra ride height built in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Actually, from what I gather, sag is the SINGLE most inportant thing as far as suspension setup... Mike Why does static sag matter? The only measurement that should is the one with the rider on the bike. If the static sag was say 25mm stock and 35mm sag with rider and say 500mm from the ground to a fixed point on the chasis and then 10mm static sag and 27mm sag with rider and 520mm from the ground to the chasis after the springs then isn't the only measurement that's important the ride height? You're just looking to keep the stance of the bike the same front to rear. Correct? You just need to raise the forks whatever is needed to get back to the original factory measurement to keep the stance of the bike the same. I could see everyone having a point if you could adjust the preload in the front, but it's fixed. You just have to do the same for the rear. But in the rear the preload is adjustable for ride height. Ride height and sag are two totally different things. Though sag may effect ride height, it's a different animal. Ajust sag for your weight, then fine tune the ride height. Your mistake is apparently thinking ride height and sag are one and the same. Absolutlely not the case. Sag sets where the suspension is in it's total travel with the rider aboard. Once that's sorted by ajusting spring preload front (via spacer length) and rear (via that double lock ring on the stock shock), you ajust ride height by moving the triple clamp and/or ajusting the rear via shims (or shock length if you have an aftermarket shock that is ride height ajustable). As Ed has alluded to, starting this entire process with the correct spring rate is important as well. Pete's link is an excellent place to educate yourself a bit. Dion, I'll leave any decicions on plagerism to the people who may get in trouble for it, namely Carlos. I can't do it when I'm not the one who would get in trouble. The link will do for now. Hyperpro doesn't say anything about adjusting sag with any spacers. The front forks have no preload adjustment. I understand how you can do so by creating a spacer out of large washers or pvc and inserting them into the front forks. What's wrong with just putting the Hyperpro springs in the forks and sliding the forks up the clamps 10mm(which they suggest). I'm done trying, dude. Read something besides the Hyperpro installation instructions (I've disagreed with some of their recommendations in the past, BTW, but you're not up to that conversation) and try and gain some understanding of the difference between suspension travel (sag) and chassis geometry (ride height) and we'll discuss this further. I'll say this one more time- the two are related but are absolutely not the same thing. Understand that and you may see the light. Read the link Pete took the time to find and post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonW Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Tim, I think you're forgetting something here. Remember, Hyperpro springs are the magical solution to all of your suspension woes because they're the only true progressive springs. There's no need to make any adjustments (other than ride height) once you've simply dropped the springs in, because they're progressive. Sag doesn't matter because they're progressive. Compression and/or rebound damping doesn't matter because they're progressive. Oil weight and levels don't matter because........ (you guessed it) they're progressive. If you've ridden a Hyperpro equiped bike, you'd understand. In a blind taste test, 30 out of 30 Norwegian blackbird riders picked Hyperpro over Racetech and Ohlins. Wait a minute........this guy's fishing and we've all got hooks in our mouths, don't we? Setting sag by sliding the forks up and down in the trees?.......I should have known better than to respond. Oh, wait........maybe he's not fishing. The Hyperpro instructions probably DO say that. It's possible that Hyperpro makes good springs, but it's either completely by chance, or there is simply a huge language barrier that needs to be addressed regarding their literature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted April 29, 2006 Share Posted April 29, 2006 Tim, I think you're forgetting something here. Remember, Hyperpro springs are the magical solution to all of your suspension woes because they're the only true progressive springs. There's no need to make any adjustments (other than ride height) once you've simply dropped the springs in, because they're progressive. Sag doesn't matter because they're progressive. Compression and/or rebound damping doesn't matter because they're progressive. Oil weight and levels don't matter because........ (you guessed it) they're progressive. If you've ridden a Hyperpro equiped bike, you'd understand. In a blind taste test, 30 out of 30 Norwegian blackbird riders picked Hyperpro over Racetech and Ohlins. You didn't use the words "Hyperpro" and "truly progressive" in your paragraph enough, Jason. As for Jeff, he's clearly a dipshit. Try to educate yourself at least a little before you come on here and tell the rest of us how to overhaul our suspensions. So from what you are saying, if I remove my fork springs, put in 2 solid steel bars inside the fork tube, then adjust the chassis to have the same height as before, it'll be fine? False. Most of the race teams are now using balsa wood. It's much lighter, and once it absorbs enough fork oil, provides a much smoother ride over steel bars. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red J Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Wait a minute........this guy's fishing and we've all got hooks in our mouths, don't we? Setting sag by sliding the forks up and down in the trees?.......I should have known better than to respond. I can't believe you all fell for it. :icon_hand: Hey. What kinda fork oil you guys use? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonW Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Hey. What kinda fork oil you guys use? Snake. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HERBXX Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Hey. What kinda fork oil you guys use? Snake. peanut oil !!! planters i think Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red J Posted April 30, 2006 Share Posted April 30, 2006 Snake. Hyperpro brand? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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