bike running rich

[BarryG]

Scorpion cans are black on the ends, powdery inside.

Just did oil change tonight, only 3 quarts drained out.

Had custom map done around 3K mi when I got the pipes/pcIII.....have heard that I should have gotten a K&N as well but never did. Should have one any day now-12K mi so need to replace OEM anyway.

Is it BS that the KN will help lean things out? Dealer service guy told me this (they didn't do the map or exhaust work).

Thx,

B

[beondwacko]

Barry,

Yes it will help, not cure things, but it will help. I went this route with my bike and a set of D&D's. I did notice a difference in MPG ( like 1 or 2mpg improvement ) but seat of the pants felt the same. I later learned that (during a dyno session) that I had big swings from lean to rich and back all over the place. Only a PCII(my mike is an 01' you would need a PCIII ) will solve things all together.

[BarryG]

Barry,

Yes it will help, not cure things, but it will help. I went this route with my bike and a set of D&D's. I did notice a difference in MPG ( like 1 or 2mpg improvement ) but seat of the pants felt the same. I later learned that (during a dyno session) that I had big swings from lean to rich and back all over the place. Only a PCII(my mike is an 01' you would need a PCIII ) will solve things all together.

I already have a PCIII. It was installed with the pipes with a custom map from the speed shop. Once I install the KN, I'll probably just take it back to them if things don't improve much. I couldn't believe only 3qts came out of the bike tonight. That was a first. FWIW, bike has always run smooth.

[Guest rockmeupto125]

Its pretty much accepted that the K&N does not improve airflow over the stock filter for the XX....which means the only advantage is that you can clean it and reuse it.

[EVLXX]

The K&N will not lean your bike out... in fact it will make it run slightly Richer.

All of my own testing shows that the K&N flows slightly more air at the lower R's, but because of airbox turbulance it doesn't really Show great signs of improvement on the Top end R's.

So... Like Joe said... the main benifit is being able to clean and reuse it.

And lastly.... the asshat tha sold you a Custom map... probably just robbed you. And just as a starting point to prove my theory for that one, I have a question for you, Did you or the mechanic remove or block the PAIR system prior to running and building your Custom map? IF Not... there's your first mistake.

Good day.

[K9XX]

Just did oil change tonight, only 3 quarts drained out.

How many miles since the last drain? Dino or Synthetic? That's baffling, haven't heard of the Bird doing this, especially with such low mileage.

You must have a leak. Or you only put 3 quarts in the last time. Either of those will make me feel better :icon_shifty:

[exskibum]

Well, IF it's running rich, you DO HAVE what is necessary to lean it out: a computer and a PCIII. Read the instructions on the PCIII and on their site* whether you're going to do the work yourself, or just to be educated about what you're asking a tech to do. There are at least two ways to lean it out -- a LOT easier than having to rejet carbs. You won't be as accurate across the RPM range as you would if you have someone with diagnostic tools dial the mixture for the correct ranges, but as noted above, I think do you need to block off the PAIR system to get appropriate downstream readings from the exhaust -- otherwise, you're getting O2 in the exhaust (and combustion of any unburned fuel as the anti-pollution purpose of the PAIR system) downstream of the exhaust valves to mask what the true post-combustion byproducts of ignition in the cylinders are (as I understand it, at least).

*See, e.g.:

http://www.powercommander.com/

and

http://www.powercommander.com/113-211.shtml

and

http://www.powercommander.com/tut_download.shtml

[silverbird1100]

Not sure if you can measure this way but, since I put my K&N in, I don't get a much black soot on the tip of my pipe

[BarryG]

The shop did remove the PAIR system. I remember them telling me that and it's on my receipt. It's actually a highly respected place. They said to come by and they'll throw it on the dyno and talk a look at the mixture and see if it needs re-tuning.

FYI...I checked the oil about a couple months ago and it seemed level. I know I put in 4 qts the last change and no oil has ever been leaking that I could see.

[2equis]

And lastly.... the asshat tha sold you a Custom map... probably just robbed you. And just as a starting point to prove my theory for that one, I have a question for you, Did you or the mechanic remove or block the PAIR system prior to running and building your Custom map? IF Not... there's your first mistake.

+1

Find a reputable dyno shop in your area that uses a gas meter and start over.

[BarryG]

And lastly.... the asshat tha sold you a Custom map... probably just robbed you. And just as a starting point to prove my theory for that one, I have a question for you, Did you or the mechanic remove or block the PAIR system prior to running and building your Custom map? IF Not... there's your first mistake.

+1

Find a reputable dyno shop in your area that uses a gas meter and start over.

Like I said I went to a reputable place. They've been there for 30 years and are considered the best and most trusted dyno shop in the area by practically every rider I've talked to here in San Diego.

[EVLXX]

They've been there for 30 years and are considered the best and most trusted dyno shop in the area by practically every rider I've talked to here in San Diego.

There's your problem.... you trusted someone else...

and then worse yet.... in San Diego.... you never know they might even frequent Balboa Park.

[2equis]

Like I said I went to a reputable place. They've been there for 30 years and are considered the best and most trusted dyno shop in the area by practically every rider I've talked to here in San Diego.

But ya didn't mention if they used a gas meter. If you are messing with the fuel/air mixture, a dyno with a GAS METER is the most efficient way to sort it all out. You'd be suprised how many dyno shops don't use them...or have them and don't know how to use them.

[beondwacko]

Now you guys got me thinking. Was the Pair system also used on the 01' models as well?

And BTW.......... a less restrictive intake will cause a slight leaning in the overall mixture.

This is common sense, and very old knowledge.

[exskibum]

Now you guys got me thinking. Was the Pair system also used on the 01' models as well?

Yes

And BTW.......... a less restrictive intake will cause a slight leaning in the overall mixture.

This is common sense, and very old knowledge.

Uh oh -- this is the subject of a very long thread somewhere around here (I think Involute started it about K&N filters). Assuming all of the intake tract can efficiently make use of the additional capacity of a less restrictive air filter and/or inlet, you're probably right. But, as with almost anything related to 4 cycle engines, everything affects everything else, and you eventually get into esoteric engineering shit like airbox resonance and positive pressure waves. Not gonna rejoin that debate here, though. :icon_snooty: But if you do a search, you can probably resurrect the issue with folks arguing both sides pretty persuasively.

[The Krypt Keeper]

The K&N will not lean your bike out... in fact it will make it run slightly Richer.

All of my own testing shows that the K&N flows slightly more air at the lower R's, but because of airbox turbulance it doesn't really Show great signs of improvement on the Top end R's.

So... Like Joe said... the main benifit is being able to clean and reuse it.

And lastly.... the asshat tha sold you a Custom map... probably just robbed you. And just as a starting point to prove my theory for that one, I have a question for you, Did you or the mechanic remove or block the PAIR system prior to running and building your Custom map? IF Not... there's your first mistake.

Good day.

Why will it not lean it out? I don't care if it adds 0 HP or anything I put one in cause the price of a Honda filter is $38 and the K&N was $45 and can be used forever after you clean then..

But back to my origonal question... I always thought of a motor being basically an airpump. You put a free'er flowing airfilter and exhaust on your motor without altering the amount of fuel you are putting into the combustion chamber and your air to fuel ration will increase casing lean conditions. ..

[shovelstrokeed]

It will not lean out due to the simple fact that the engine won't pump any more air than it already is. You have done nothing by removing the restriction from the air box to improve the volumetric efficiency of the motor. If your not pumping more air, you don't need less restriction. The stock filter has more than adequate flow to meet the needs of the motor at peak HP. At anything less, it will be pumping less air. K&N and all the other whizz bang folks out there count on most folks not understanding this simple fact.

[Keith]

Just a thought: can you download the map from your PCIII and compare it to the standard maps? That would tell you one

of two things: 1) if it's really a custom map... or, if it doesn't match a standard map: 2) what differences there are between

your map and any of the standard maps. This will tell you if there are any RPM/throttle points that are leaner than the stock

or one of the standard maps Power Commander supplies.

[FiXXation]

I don't remember whether Barry bought a California closed loop bike or not. If he did, does that change the tuning technique with the PC III?

Never mind; found where his '02 is a 49-state model. :icon_silenced:

[The Krypt Keeper]

It will not lean out due to the simple fact that the engine won't pump any more air than it already is. You have done nothing by removing the restriction from the air box to improve the volumetric efficiency of the motor. If your not pumping more air, you don't need less restriction. The stock filter has more than adequate flow to meet the needs of the motor at peak HP. At anything less, it will be pumping less air. K&N and all the other whizz bang folks out there count on most folks not understanding this simple fact.

The key point I was not thinking about was the air the motor was actually using. The amount being let into the combustion chamber was not changed as the motor will draw in the air that is needed on the intake stoke of the cycle.

I see now.. .Thanks for the explanation

[BarryG]

I put the KN filter in last night. It doesn't seem to seat as well as the stock filter but it's in there.

I think the reason I may have been down oil when I drained is b/c I changed the oil after letting the bike sit about 10-15 min after a 3 hr ride. Maybe I should have waited longer for oil to get to the pan.

When I check the oil w/ the bike cold, level is a little high. When I check after a ride and it's been sitting for 15 min or so, it's level. Bike seems to be running fine though.

[The Krypt Keeper]

my filter came with a tube of sealing grease. You must pull out the O-ring that the stock filter uses. ***note(not the O-ring for the airbox, just the filter)***

Squirt in the grease which is as thick as tar evenly and pop in your K&n filter into place making sure its seated all the way around. I noticed it didn't seat as nice as the stock Honda filter but I took my time and made sure it was in the channel and buttoned everything back up.

[BarryG]

my filter came with a tube of sealing grease. You must pull out the O-ring that the stock filter uses. ***note(not the O-ring for the airbox, just the filter)***

I saw this in the instructions but I didn't pull out the O'ring for the stock filter.....b/c I couldn't tell where/what it was....?? Is this on the stock filter or sitting in the airbox?

Is this like a metal O'ring?? I looked on the stock filter and couldn't find anything but maybe didn't look long enough. I just used the sealing grease in the grooves in the airbox and put in the K/N.

I'll have to look again.....does this make much of a difference?

[The Krypt Keeper]

I answered your post in the pub is you see this first.