Turbo XX

[XX78]

Hey guys, I have got a 2003 CBR 1100 that I am dying to turbocharge if I can ever come up with the money.

At this point I am trying to get a basic gameplan together and need any advise you guys could offer. I realize

I am looking at new rods and pistons +2mm ($1600 or so) and an intercooler. I am assuming I need stronger

head bolts or studs? My goal at this point is 400+ hp at the tire. Also, I would love to keep the ram air intake

and full exhaust for somewhat of a sleeper look. I wanna do this right the first time and any advice would be

greatly appreciated.

[shovelstrokeed]

400 RWHP!

Ambitious, ain't ya.

I'm gonna sound a little snotty here as I don't know you but, from what you asked to start off with, you don't know near enough to do this yourself. Take a check for about 10 or 12K down to one of the tuner shops and they should give you what you need. Be advised, it may not be what you want or are capable of riding.

Somewhere in the neigborhood of 200 to 225 RWHP will propel an XX into the 8's in the quarter mile provided you can find the traction and control the front wheel. Anything over that is well beyond the pale and totally unsuited to a street bike which, from your desire for a sleeper look, I assume is what you are going for.

In short, your gonna poke your eye out, kid.

[Dion]

Do a search on XX4me and MiDNitXX

They've been there done that. Hiding it all is going to be difficult.

[Iceman_40]

I'm sure you could get 400RWHP out of it but it will cost you. I hope you don't ever plan on ridding it on the street.

That's way too much HP to be useable unless your drag racing.

Keep us up to date...

[XX78]

Yeah, that much power would definitely be for the track. I don't see why you couldn't turn the boost and

ramp rate down with an AMS1000 or similar product and ride the same bike on the street at times though?

I am NOT looking to try to push such a bike on the street when there is a track 15 minutes down the road.

I kinda figured before I asked this question that it was gonna end up being about 10k or so but I have yet to

see a kit designed for the blackbird that produces this kind of power. I know the Hahn kit keeps the ram-air

but doesn't produce this kind of power, plus I have heard a lot of negatives about it. I know EFR does kits

but from what I have read they don't sell kits without the installation and I am in Texas, just outside of Dallas/

Ft Worth. Velocity doesn't appear to make a kit for the blackbird. In theory, I would actually like to do the

install myself :icon_wall: , probably a bad idea :icon_think: , then take it to someone local to have it tuned.

My thoughts so far are of course stronger rods and pistons, head bolts, 8 or 8.5 to 1 compression. I realize that

keeping the ram air and adding an intercooler is asking for a LOT and probably won't be doable but if it is possible

I would love to do it since I am not to fond of the air cleaner sticking out of the side. The full exaust should be

pretty easy though it is gonna eat up some horsepower, no real idea how much though.

Does anybody know of a kit that would produce this kinda power?

Shovel, don't worry about sounding snotty. I would have been shocked not to get that kind of response from

someone and I am not trying to use that kind of power on the street to go act like a squid. :icon_snooty:

One of my main objectives at this point is to try and learn from the mistakes of others so I don't repeat them.

[Iceman_40]

Glad to hear your just not a squid looking to kill yourself. I assume you intend to drag race it.

There are a few drag racers here making that much HP out of there bikes. I don't know if they will give up there all the details though. Keep watching the post I'm sure a few of them will pipe up.

[Furbird]

I would suggest looking at www.stotzracing.com and finding out just what the old birds will do. He still rides a 99 and just broke the world record something like 6 times in one day. He's got 550HP and the 700HP Busas can't catch him. I'd suggest stroking a check, sending him your bike, and saying something to the effect of "I want what you got but back when you first did it and could only get 450 out of it"

In all seriousness, you COULD ride it on the street, but it would not be streetable. Kinda like the 10.5 street car shootouts they have all over the country, where they are TECHNICALLY street legal, but you'd have to be a billionaire to continuously drive it on the street. 400 to the tire is an astronomical number for a street legal bike, and they'd be calling you flipper if you stayed stock length. The biggest issue would be the clutch. I know the 60" class has to inspect their clutch after every pass, and sometimes replace parts. Can you imagine riding that on the street on a daily basis, the amount of maintenance it would require?

If I could afford a turbo, I'd have one too. But the bottom line is I can't, I've never seen a good reason why you should trust one company over another (they all have burned somebody at one point or another), and I have yet to see a turbo bike that you can drive without always working on it like a turbo car is set up with the same amount of boost. So, that's why I get my 200 wheel HP on the bottle. Ride it like you do everyday, then open a can of whoop ass for the big mouths. Of course, I don't have a 250 shot to get to 400 wheel HP either....... :icon_silenced:

[shovelstrokeed]

OK, that's reasonable but, I think your goals are a little mixed.

The techniques for building a stout engine are pretty well known. Falicon can handle your lower end and clutch basket, which you certainly are going to need. APE can probably come up with some studs for you. Venolia or JE can produce pistons in any dimension and configuration you wish. You might just be able to source most of this from Orient Express as well. Your gonna want a copper head gasket and some stainless O-rings around the cylinder bores to handle the kind of boost you need for 400 HP. All of this is more or less easily handled, just takes bux.

Now let's look at the package. Keeping everything, hair dryer, intercooler, head pipes, waste gate, and exhaust system inside the stock fairing and frame is gonna be a nightmare. You'll probably wind up with a too small intercooler and a restrictive post turbo exhaust system. Not good. You are also going to be looking at some pretty stout fuel requirements as well. Big injectors, high pressure and high volume pump. Now, with all of that in there, you can pretty much forget about being able to ride around on the street, not to mention the need for very high octane race gas on this setup.

To my mind, a better setup would be a fairly small turbo running 5-8 PSI of boost into a more or less stock motor. The stock motor will take those boost levels and give you a nice beast that you can still ride around. No need for an intercooler and you can make the exhaust look pretty much like you have a 4 into 1 pipe on it. When you want to go to the track, dial the boost up to 12 PSI or so, run some race gas in it and go out and scare yourself. A fuel pressure regulator that pilots off the boost, and maybe a little higher flow injectors would be all you need with that setup.

To get a real dual personality bike, your best move , in terms of bang for the buck, is just to spray it. Now you can ride around on a stocker and just a twist of a valve and a flick of a switch away is another 100 HP. Simple to do and, if used in moderation, the motor should hold up pretty well.

There is a learning curve to either method and while advise given on boards like this can shorten it somewhat, your gonna have to pay some dues and maybe some repair bills before you really get a handle on it.

[Furbird]

I've heard from several different sources that there are 700 HP Busas running, but I have not heard that info firsthand, so I cannot verify that. I'm not in the loop, so to speak. But, directly from Stotz website:

After the 2004 season ended, major changes to the induction and electronic control systems were implemented, netting 65 more horsepower (550-plus overall).

And I don't know why some folks are so hard on Hahn, because, once again:

We swapped in different rods and pistons, still using the stock crank, and with Hahn Racecraft's turbo we had 453 horsepower on our dyno runs.

I'm sorry, but 453 on a stock bike with new rods and pistons is HELLA impressive to me. Now granted, anybody can flash a big dyno number, but 453 HP on a dyno is still gonna give you a ton of power on the street with rods, pistons, and Hahn's turbo kit. So why are you so hard on Hahn? I'm genuinely wanting to know what the issue is, no flame intended, because I've never heard the whole story. I know a Busa here in town that made nearly 300 to the tire on a Hahn kit and his headgasket failed at 207MPH about a month ago, proving once again that Busas suck! Also, I know another guy that had a Mr. Turbo kit and he had to redesign the entire system because stuff kept failing repetitively.

[XX78]

That information helps considerably. Thank you.

[Mitch_1100xx]

I would suggest looking at www.stotzracing.com and finding out just what the old birds will do. He still rides a 99 and just broke the world record something like 6 times in one day. He's got 550HP and the 700HP Busas can't catch him. I'd suggest stroking a check, sending him your bike, and saying something to the effect of "I want what you got but back when you first did it and could only get 450 out of it"

In all seriousness, you COULD ride it on the street, but it would not be streetable. Kinda like the 10.5 street car shootouts they have all over the country, where they are TECHNICALLY street legal, but you'd have to be a billionaire to continuously drive it on the street. 400 to the tire is an astronomical number for a street legal bike, and they'd be calling you flipper if you stayed stock length. The biggest issue would be the clutch. I know the 60" class has to inspect their clutch after every pass, and sometimes replace parts. Can you imagine riding that on the street on a daily basis, the amount of maintenance it would require?

If I could afford a turbo, I'd have one too. But the bottom line is I can't, I've never seen a good reason why you should trust one company over another (they all have burned somebody at one point or another), and I have yet to see a turbo bike that you can drive without always working on it like a turbo car is set up with the same amount of boost. So, that's why I get my 200 wheel HP on the bottle. Ride it like you do everyday, then open a can of whoop ass for the big mouths. Of course, I don't have a 250 shot to get to 400 wheel HP either....... :icon_silenced:

AMEN................................................ just how i woulda said it look up ken stotz or elton fish they have some ass whooping bikes. the other way, like i have done as well is nitrous. you can have a pretty well dead stock look and have pummeling power like no tommorow and rock busas on every corner (which im sure is one of your repressed urges). if you go 20 shot (lightest possable) you can run it right off a stock everything, but if you wanna drop a few Gs on heads cams pistons rods blah blah, drop 60-80 shot. that will throw you well into 200 rwhp range which is a shit load, and that is like a muel kick to the face. i know a dude with a 300 hp busa (not turboed) and he says that it is almost unmanageable on the street. 400+ i can imagine would be absolutly insane.

are you gunna be stretching the bike or poppin wheelies in 6th lol, thats somthing to think about with big power. i would assume the reason you want a turbo is for consistant power instead of a big burst that makes you go home and change the underwear. now that we are on the topic here is my setup.....

[Furbird]

"...heads cams pistons rods blah blah, drop 60-80 shot."

Umm, don't take this the wrong way Mitch, but I'm running the upper range of those numbers on my completely stock, 35k mile 99 motor. The XX engine can handle a lot more power that most folks give it credit for. Now, granted, I'm not at the track every weekend spraying that much gas, 10 passes a night. But it has been used quite a few times, track and street, with no ill effects as of yet.

[Byrdman]

Other than a boost controller, I gots nothing to sell. :icon_think:

And you don't return your e-mails!

[Mitch_1100xx]

"...heads cams pistons rods blah blah, drop 60-80 shot."

Umm, don't take this the wrong way Mitch, but I'm running the upper range of those numbers on my completely stock, 35k mile 99 motor. The XX engine can handle a lot more power that most folks give it credit for. Now, granted, I'm not at the track every weekend spraying that much gas, 10 passes a night. But it has been used quite a few times, track and street, with no ill effects as of yet.

yea as i say im no pro tuner by anymeans and the problem is, i hear so many things so i have a very low shot as more a less a percaution. that and for the reason that this is the first bike i have had with spray and the first season, so i dont want to lauch myself to heaven just yet. i was wondering what kinda stuff you have done to your bike, cuz you say you are running a shit load so im just wondering. and for that matter if your nos system is wet or dry. i went with wet. and do you have dyno charts. i would love to see this stuff so i can kinda work around it without worrying about back preasure and burnt valvs stuff that shops constintly tell me about that i question if it is true or not. im am totally a beginner in this so if im saying somthing wrong plz tell me so i can be more knowledgable about this.

thanx man

[Furbird]

I run a direct port kit, hence the reasoning behind such a big shot. Tiny jets are hard to come by, unless you drill your own, and once you start getting really small, you start having issues with the fuel not wanting to consistently flow through such a tiny hole. Just the tiniest bit of trash in the fuel and you could plug a jet. Now granted, you should have a fuel filter on your fuel solenoid to eliminate that (which I do), but even all the filters in the world are gonna let some things pass, and stuff is eventually going to fail. Most engines in a street application can inhale and exhale a bb and not seriously damage anything, so to blow your motor over a piece of something measured in tenths of a millimeter due to a blockage on a tiny fuel jet would just SUCK. Then there's the whole mounting the fuel solenoid closer to the nozzles than the nitrous solenoid and all the other drama that comes about with building a nitrous system that will work consistently with a low failure rate and not damage the motor in the process.

I live by the old school rule of nitrous. Take your flywheel HP, divide it in half, and that should be what a properly jetted and properly used nitrous system can spray on your motor and not grenade it. Now there's all kinds of factors that have to be taken into consideration when you use that rule (timing, spark plug gap, compression ratio, fuel octane, etc.) but as a general rule it works almost always across the board. Of course, that only applies to street motors. The car I'm working on now will have an easy 25% more HP than the engine has NA, but it's built for that, so the old school rule doesn't apply.

Anyhoo, from what I've read, the first thing to fail in the XX motor is the piston ring lands, and it somewhere in the 250-ish range. I'm getting close to that number, but I'm not there yet, and don't really plan on approaching it without having pistons ready to go in if something does let go. But like I said, I rarely use it at all, and when I do, it is for short bursts, and it is not at the engines peak loads or way up in the RPM range either. Nitrous failures are due to improper tuning, improper usage, and improper safety equipment. If it's jetted right, if you spray within the confines of what it should be used for, and if you have the safety stuff to shut it down if things aren't right, it shouldn't ever let go. It may reduce total engine life, but it should not be a massive explosion that kills the engine instantaneously.

[Mitch_1100xx]

I run a direct port kit, hence the reasoning behind such a big shot. Tiny jets are hard to come by, unless you drill your own, and once you start getting really small, you start having issues with the fuel not wanting to consistently flow through such a tiny hole. Just the tiniest bit of trash in the fuel and you could plug a jet. Now granted, you should have a fuel filter on your fuel solenoid to eliminate that (which I do), but even all the filters in the world are gonna let some things pass, and stuff is eventually going to fail. Most engines in a street application can inhale and exhale a bb and not seriously damage anything, so to blow your motor over a piece of something measured in tenths of a millimeter due to a blockage on a tiny fuel jet would just SUCK. Then there's the whole mounting the fuel solenoid closer to the nozzles than the nitrous solenoid and all the other drama that comes about with building a nitrous system that will work consistently with a low failure rate and not damage the motor in the process.

I live by the old school rule of nitrous. Take your flywheel HP, divide it in half, and that should be what a properly jetted and properly used nitrous system can spray on your motor and not grenade it. Now there's all kinds of factors that have to be taken into consideration when you use that rule (timing, spark plug gap, compression ratio, fuel octane, etc.) but as a general rule it works almost always across the board. Of course, that only applies to street motors. The car I'm working on now will have an easy 25% more HP than the engine has NA, but it's built for that, so the old school rule doesn't apply.

Anyhoo, from what I've read, the first thing to fail in the XX motor is the piston ring lands, and it somewhere in the 250-ish range. I'm getting close to that number, but I'm not there yet, and don't really plan on approaching it without having pistons ready to go in if something does let go. But like I said, I rarely use it at all, and when I do, it is for short bursts, and it is not at the engines peak loads or way up in the RPM range either. Nitrous failures are due to improper tuning, improper usage, and improper safety equipment. If it's jetted right, if you spray within the confines of what it should be used for, and if you have the safety stuff to shut it down if things aren't right, it shouldn't ever let go. It may reduce total engine life, but it should not be a massive explosion that kills the engine instantaneously.

interesting.ill deffinatly think about that. i will be taking mine in for a pro install though, i can do alot of things on my bike but however i really dont want to make and error and have my engine get nuked, so if i run 40 shot with stock internals and headers and exhausts i should be fine if used now and then, and not on a regular basis. BTW my bike is also a 99 model. i dont want to haave to much back pressure and burn somthing thats also what im worried about.

[XX4me]

I would feel like I was negligent if I didn't post these pictures in response to the claim hahns are ok.

hahns are very poorly designed and manufactured kits. The components they make are from the cheapest material available.

The company offers zero customer service. How did MiDNiTXX put it "Please hold while I ignore you".

You are buying yourself lots of problems if you choose the hahn kit.

One good thing though,thru repetition you'll learn how to take your bike apart and put it back together blindfolded.

[davesXX01]

So,,, you guys with nitrous,,,any more close-up pics of the instalation?

What brand?

Wet-dry?

carbed or injected?

Pill box?

Jet sizes?

Ect

Dave

[XX4me]

Here's another example of the hahn genius at work.

They figured out that physics don't apply to their systems hence the uphill compressor housing oil drain.

In case you don't know this engineering design means your bike smokes like a 2-stroke when you start it up.

The chicks really dig that part.

[Mitch_1100xx]

wet, nitrous express, injected, 1999, 20 shot (minimal). im a total newbie to nitrous so forgive me for having such a pansy shot by next year i will probably go to a 40 or so.

[Furbird]

Wet, NOS, EFI, 1999, can't tell you jet sizes because that would just be wrong! It all depends on fuel pressure, bottle pressure, and how much you want to spray.

[Mitch_1100xx]

Wet, NOS, EFI, 1999, can't tell you jet sizes because that would just be wrong! It all depends on fuel pressure, bottle pressure, and how much you want to spray.

ye dont worry i think 20 is to small talking to alot of others i think im gunna have to double up.

[shovelstrokeed]

Just for reference, a few years ago I built a top gas bike as a toy. Top gas is an 8.20 class. 1425cc 4 valve Suzuki motor, 8:1 turbo pistons, 10" car tire chassis with a slider clutch for consistency, 1,2,3 automatic trans and my own progressive system with built in autoshift. I used a commercial PLC and the thing functioned as a delay box, progressive NOS controller, autoshifter, shift counter and ignition kill for the 3-4 and 4-5 shifts.

Without the spray, the bike would run 9.30's at around 135 mph with 60' times in the 1.36 range. Adding a very small shot of squidge, 16/20 jetting with a progressive going from 50% to 100% in 2 seconds, took the bike down to very consistant 8.20 with the 60' times down into the 1.18 range. mph was low at 157 or so due mostly to a pretty weak cylinder head and no fairing. Going up to 20/24 put it in the 8.00 range at 162.

Later, switching to a better chassis, 14:1 pistons and a better cylinder head, with a good deal more Nitrous, the motor went 7.30's at 185 or so. I used a wet system with the 45 degree nozzles installed in the bottom of the intake rubbers and pointing towards the roof of the ports. 45 Lectrons on the outside.

If you have the traction, it doesn't take a whole bunch of nitrous to make a remarkable difference in performance. It's all in the application and setup.

[redcam622]

Here's a 450 hp @27 lbs custom m/c express intercooled and carbed XX...will make over 500 at the tire at bigger boost levels,but why?...Carillo rods,Je pistons,cams,valve springs,1/2 inch head studs,back cut trans,lock up clutch, 61mm shoot out turbo etc,etc. not cheap,but repeatable hp and smoother than any busa i've ridden...and hidden pretty well.