Sick Bird: Need Opinions

[swampdonkey]

Note: sorry is this get's posted 2x...I posted it but nothing showed up so I redid it.

Hi all. I need some advice about my '97. A few weeks back I was riding and accelerated normally from a stop when a very noticeable RPM-based tapping began coming out of the engine. I shut down the engine w/in a minute and carted the bike home. Depression set it so I didn't have it looked at until recently. I am not overly skilled in engine repair, in fact I am rather retarded, so I brought it into a local shop. Now bear w/ me if I use incorrect terminology and can contact them to obtain additional info if it helps answer my questions. They contacted me and said the cam chain was shot and the tensioner was also history. The estimate is $1100 to fix. Does this price sound OK for this work? I'm not sure I can dish out that kind of dough so might wait and park it for the winter.

Thanks much for any opinions.

-Scott-

[Northman]

How many miles on the bike?

Pick it up from the shop, and change the CCT (2 bolts, under right side fairing). IF the noise is still there, you may have to dig deeper, but I doubt it. I can't recall a single case of a bad timing chain, even on bikes with 100K+ miles.

[Hobicus]

How many miles on the bike?

Pick it up from the shop, and change the CCT (2 bolts, under right side fairing). IF the noise is still there, you may have to dig deeper, but I doubt it. I can't recall a single case of a bad timing chain, even on bikes with 100K+ miles.

+1

Check the for sale section:

http://www.cbr1100xx.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=45552 for the best price.

And here's how to do it:

http://www.cbr1100xx.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=32974

And find another shop, because those guys suck.

[rockmeupto125]

I can recall a couple instances of bad timing chains, but its a pretty rare occurence.

Here's my opinion.

1. The only thing a cam chain can do to go bad is to seize a link, making a kink in it, or to wear out, which will make it longer. If it seizes a link due to lack of oiling, a rhythmic ticking will occur as the chain travels past the drive gear, driven gears, and tensioner. This is completely tied to engine rpm, and would only occur if an engine sat for a long period of time, and possibly with the internals exposed to external air. If it wears, and stretches, there will be a whirring sound as the chain won't seat well into the drive and driven gears, and there may be an inconsistant slap at low rpm or heavy whir at higher rpm as the chain contacts the engine case. Inconsistant at low rpm because the chain will travel in waves, and a whir at higher rpm because centrifugal force will make the chain round out as it attempts to become a circle, and can rub up against the case. Your engine will have noticeably less power as well, due to the lag in cam timing caused by the increased length of the chain?

*so what about the ticking indicates a bad cam chain?

2. A bad cam chain often damages the cam chain tensioner because it strikes the tensioner from a different angle than a good chain, wearing it in an area not built to control a defective chain. So replacing the tensioner when a cam chain needs replacing is standard procedure. I'm referring here to the rubber covered foot that actually contacts the chain, and is actuated by the bullet shaped device we can see bolted to the outside of the engine that contains a spring-loaded plunger.

*again, what indicates a bad tensioner foot?

I agree with Northman, that you should replace the CCT yourself, and see if the situation is improved. You'll spend $40 and learn a bit about the bike in the process....its literally two bolts and a gasket. Its not unusual for the CCT to get weak with age...some folks replace theirs as a maintainance item.

Here's where I'm going with #1 and #2. Its indeed possible for your engine to have a bad cam chain. But to make that diagnosis literally requires a lot of work stripping the bodywork and removal of the valve cover and side covers from the engine. Did the shop really do that before they tossed out this diagnosis? Secondly, I don't know what the Honda flat rate manual says, but $1100 is a metric shit-tonne of money for a cam chain change. I would make an outrageous estimate of no more than 5 hours of skilled professional shop time (you know, the kind of shop where all factory tools and parts are available, lifts, there's available grunt labor and factory trained technicians do the work) at $100 an hour and $200 worth of parts for a total of $700 at the absolute most.

Based on that, and the minimal info you've given, my first impression is that you're either omitting something big, or your shop is giving it to you in the ass...whether from incompetence or malice, it doesn't matter.

If you're bike is at the shop, and completely assembled....chances are that I'm right about your shop.

Pick up the bike, replace the CCT yourself, and see what happens. I know you said that the sound was rpm related, but you also indicated you're mechanically retarded, so let me ask you this...was the sound indeed rpm related, or road speed related?

[swampdonkey]

Sorry for the lack of info but here is some additional details. The shop has had the bike and I initially authorised 1.5 hours of work. They later called and said that they believed it was the chain and asked for another hour to dig deeper in the engine. What could I say? So yes, the bike is apart which makes picking it up w/out paying some $ not an option.

Mileage on the bike is ~22k.

Thanks again!

-Scott-

[MR. WOMO]

God! This is why I HATE dealers, and have tried to do all the maintnenance on my own bike for the past couple of years now!

Unfortunately, I don't have any solution to offer other than those very insightful ones posted previously by our excellent board members.

I always post up the problems with my Bird before I do anything! Thes guys (and gals) know this bike inside and out, and almost always have the most salient and astute solutions to any problem there is on 'em. Most things that go wrong CAN be fixed by even guys like me that have very limited wrenching abilities, and if not, at least I feel that if I HAD to take it somewhere else, that everything has been done prior to that, and I can speak in a much more informed way to whomever I had to have do the repairs.

Lots of DIY threads for most any problem as well. There's nothing like fixing the thing yourself - and you do learn a TON about your ride in the process!

Good luck getting the thing back from them, and hopefully all will be well with the simple CCT fix!

Cheers,

Kevin

[kiwimack]

+1 on what Joe said

so what have they done for 2.5 hrs of labor? How many hours will it take them to reassemble it?

you should know that installing a new CCT is about a 10 minite job. maybe 30 minites if you dont have much experience..

the chances of it being a fucked chain are, as has been mentioned, slim

get them to install a new CCT then take it home, your already into them for $300.00 bucks.....and stop supporting these fuckwits masquerading as 'Honda Motorcycle Technicians'

my 2 cents

[Hobicus]

I suggest that you ask them to show you where the chain is damaged. If it's really got problems, you should be able to visibly see the damage (as Joe previously described)

Otherwise, Tell them you'll take it as is, and agree to pay no more money. That $300 would have been better spent at a strip club.

Call someone local to you like Chris Appel (Cappel) (what happened to the member map?) or post up for someone near Seattle to come help you reassemble what they've done so far.

[swampdonkey]

Thanks for all the info. I really hate to think they are screwing me but you do hear of such things very often. So if I take it as is, I have bike w/ the engine torn apart for $300ish that is still unfixed; if they fix it I'm out mucho dollars and possibly being raped as well. I like the idea of heading over there and asking to see the chain. A friend nearby has experience w/ engines so I'll drag him along as well.

Also, just FYI, this issue was instantaneous. The bike ran fine, at least to me, then BAM, the tapping started full on.

-Scott-

[speedygeezer]

Couple of things: since you admittedly know little about engine mechanicals, it may help you in your journey to know a couple of terms. CCT = cam chain tensioner. This term is commonly (why, I have no idea) given to the "lifter", which is the gizmo that keeps pressure on the cam chain tensioner against which the cam chain rides. I mention this just in case you start exchanging terms with the shop mechanics and parts guys.....it helps to speak the same language.

As has been said, the lifter is a common replacement item and does indeed produce a noticeable sound. However, this sound (and associated vibration felt in the hand grips and foot-pegs) is one that typically increases with time, not - as you said - all of a sudden. It is most noticeable between 4K and 5K rpm - outside those numbers, it normally is quiet and smooth, and does not produce a singular "tapping" sound. Usually it is said to sound like a bunch of marbles rattling around inside the engine. And there is no visible difference between a good lifter and a bad lifter.

Now that the engine is apart in a dealer's shop, you are pretty much limited on your options. You can have them put it back together at additional cost, or take it home as is and have an experienced mechanical friend do the same thing. This way, he can re-assess the sound that it was making and go from there. You can also replace the lifter to see if that alters the sound, just to rule it out. Or in, as the case may be. It's very difficult to diagnose someone else's "sounds".

I agree with what Chris and Joe said about the cam chain itself not being a likely candidate for replacement. The main thing to do is to get it out of that shop with no further repairs.

[swampdonkey]

Update

I went in and talked to the shop and they are set on the $1100 figure. The bike was apart and he showed me the chain and I'm like, well, it's a chain. He said there was a kink and as a result it would hit each time around. Honestly I think this place is a good shop, they mainly do higher-end car and bike "stuff" and suspect their usual clientel can afford the work they do. I've heard they have some very talented people....but then again this job is priced too high. I called several dealerships and the pricing varied somewhat but still a good ways below their quote. I am having them put the bike together as is and I'll bring her home for now until I can find someone to do it locally. Ideally I wish they would have worked w/ me but.... It'll cost me about $300+ so far.

If anyone is interested, please let me know.

Thanks

[MrBadExxample]

I went in and talked to the shop and they are set on the $1100 figure. The bike was apart and he showed me the chain and I'm like, well, it's a chain. He said there was a kink and as a result it would hit each time around.

They did show you the kink, no? How bad was it?

[swampdonkey]

That is one of those questions that seem blindingly obvious now that I am home. Sadly, I didn't. I saw the chain but didn't think to ask at the time. One of those live-n-learn moments moments.

[02XXCA]

That is one of those questions that seem blindingly obvious now that I am home. Sadly, I didn't. I saw the chain but didn't think to ask at the time. One of those live-n-learn moments moments.

Did you get the bike home? I would start by inspecting the chain, how far apart is the engine?

[swampdonkey]

Bike is home and largely back together. I thought about just bringing the parts home but decided it best to just have them close it up. That way everything should be there. I'll break some of it down to save time when it does get repaired at some point.