prs Posted July 10, 2007 Share Posted July 10, 2007 went for a ride last weekend with some 200 bikes around mt rainer, and gave the bike a shakedown. got the missing problem fixed apparently; regapped plugs to .018 and factory coils and it worked. the dyna coils didn't work. sending em back for diff. ones. although i can run away from my friends 05 busa with pc3 and aftermarket hmf pipes and his one tooth lower front sprocket, i cannot run from my other friends 12r that just dyno'd 175 last week. i'm down on power somewhere, even at 10lbs boost. i'm gonna change the fuel pump to a gss341 today, for more pressure. my holley walbro is only good for 80 psi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shovelstrokeed Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 I mentioned this before and I'll repeat. Why 80 PSI? I really think this is a source of your problems. Injectors will have opening problems at that pressure and give you erratic performance. At 10 PSI of boost, you only need a bit more pressure than the factory 43 PSI. Call it 53 just to keep the math simple. Increase fuel pressure in a 1:1 relationship to boost pressure. As an aside, is the fuel pressure your only means of enrichment? If so, I would suggest you limit boost to around 8 PSI max. Take a look around and see if you can find a Haltech F6 fuel controller. It is specifically designed to work on turbo motors and you can adjust kick in and enrichment amounts with a couple of potentiometers. You will, of course, have to install a second fuel rail and set of injectors which will require modification to your plenum but the effort will be well rewarded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beondwacko Posted July 11, 2007 Share Posted July 11, 2007 It almost looks like he's trying to overcome a stock maping with additional fuel pressure. At least from this side of the grandstands it looks like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shovelstrokeed Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Yes, and that is a poor plan. It will work OK up to 5-8 PSI of boost and 50-55 PSI of fuel pressure. After that, the flows get screwed up as the added pressure doesn't produce a linear increase in fuel flow and the injector response gets sluggish, in particular pintel type injectors. The Bosch injectors on BMW motors would flat stop opening at around 65 PSI. Not the plan when you are looking to double HP. Get 4 more injectors with a relatively narrow spray pattern and mount them, shower head style on the top of the plenum, aimed at the throttle plates. Set up the controller to kick in just as the turbo starts to really produce boost, somewhere just south of zero manifold pressure. A set of stock injectors and a stock fuel rail will do the job, no need to get silly with oversized ones. The Haltech unit I mentioned needs very little in the way of signals, a crankshaft pulse, manifold pressure and that is about it. It varies injector pulse timing with the boost and is pretty darn good at getting the mixture right. An EGT readout set at the entrance to the exhaust scroll of the turbo will provide all the information you need. Keep things at around 1100 deg under boost and a new world of throttle wheelstands and destroyed rear tires will open up to you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prs Posted July 12, 2007 Author Share Posted July 12, 2007 ok, i see i got some replys. thanx mucho guys. here's what i got. hahn header(pos) evo111gt 7cm turbo,16g intercooler water injection 500cfm aircleaner behind the headlight pc3usb pc2 for ignition retard lcd for throttle position info so i can map in conjunction with my a/f meter walbro gss341 hp fuel pump, good to over 100psi and 300 horse, at said pressure 3" square aluminum intake fuel pressure guage boost guage msd knock meter begi fpr. i replaced the aeromotive 1:1 i had on it. fuel pressure is 50 at idle no hose attached. drops to 38 attached at idle, and is about 50 at cruise. bike is geared 18front my a/f meter reads about 12.7 at 10psi boost, and i want it about 12.0,(or whatever you might suggest), this is with pc3 mapped +25% at wot, and 80 psi fuel pressure. progressive retard starting at 6000rpm, with 5% retard at 8000rpm. the knock meter reads zero. the bike does not make the power it should. it power wheelies in second, but not third. i solved the missing problem by regapping to .018, from .030 the dynatek coils i bought were just adding to the missing problem, so i am returning them for some 2.2 ohm units. the oversized flapper on this turbo opens about 10-11 psi boost. what i need to know, to get a baseline, is what others have set their fuel pressure at, and what the map looks like at wot. i tried the 1:1 aeromotive unit, and could not get the a/f below 12.7 the busa site said to dump it and get the begi, but they did not say what pressure to run, so i did, but it is still 12.7 i will try turning the pressure down to 60 and see if it goes lean, or gets better, indicating injector lockup. i have 5/16 braided fuel line from the tank, to the high volume fuel filter, to the rail, from the rail to the begi, with 1/4 back to the tank. the begi unit is mounted in front of the battery frame, about 16" from the fuel rail. there is no factory fpr. i ran the calculations for these injectors and pulse width requirements, and your information appears correct about pressure requirements for about 220hp. my problem is i cant get the a/f low enough yet. thanx again, and i would be glad to post pics of everything, but i don't know how to on this site. pat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fast Eddy Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 Right below the box you type in to post is the attachments box, click browse, select the pic you want then open, then upload and repete. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prs Posted July 12, 2007 Author Share Posted July 12, 2007 very nice. thanx. the intercooler is 2"x7" x12", and should be good for easy 200hp. 3x6x9" are advertised for over 250hp. but it is possible it is too small, and i have thought of it; only problem is im too lean, and not enough air equates to too rich. thanx, for the info on pics. i will post some. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prs Posted July 12, 2007 Author Share Posted July 12, 2007 very nice. thanx. the intercooler is 2"x7" x12", and should be good for easy 200hp. 3x6x9" are advertised for over 250hp. but it is possible it is too small, and i have thought of it; only problem is im too lean, and not enough air equates to too rich. thanx, for the info on pics. i will post some. and yes, the stock fpr is removed. what kind of pc3 numbers at wot would u estimate? my calculations show that the stock bike uses a duty cycle of about 60%, which only leaves 20% more at stock fuel pressure, so higher fuel pressure is the only way to get it. i am running off a stock map that i have been adjusting; should i be using a zero map, and going from there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrxxquad Posted July 12, 2007 Share Posted July 12, 2007 bigger injectors s2000 Just my impression, from the evidence. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shovelstrokeed Posted July 13, 2007 Share Posted July 13, 2007 +1 on the bigger injectors. Tests I did years ago when fighting similar problems showed that the flow rate was not all that linear above 70% duty cycle. If you can't go the original way I suggested and add 4 more injectors, going to a bigger injector and getting the flow rate back down into the sub 60% range will certainly help. The fact that you cannot get A/F ratio any richer than 12.7:1 is indicative of a fuel flow problem. It might be useful and educational for you to send your injectors off to Russ Collins (yeah that Russ Collins of RC Engineering fame) and have him flow map them and clean them for you. Give him your data in re fuel pressure and the like and see what he has to say. Guy is pretty darn smart for a geezer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prs Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 now that is new about the duty cycle cells. i thought that the cells were increasing duty cycle 1% for every 1% increase. now i have more room to work with and will immediately try a big jump in duty cycle increase to see if a/f lowers, or injector lockup. i have always wanted to buy the s2000, and appears i might have to. i had the injectors cleaned and flowed, but only to see if they were within 2% of each other, and they were, but i don't know their actual volume, though i am assuming about 30lbs. 310cc. how about the banjo fittings on the fuel line? the hole is pretty small. ever been an issue? here's a pic of my cockpit. the fuel guage is temporary till this is sorted out. the a/f fuel is reading rich at idle because it scrolls up and down, and thats where it was when i took the pic. thanx again guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prs Posted July 13, 2007 Author Share Posted July 13, 2007 here's another pic of the air intake side. it ducts up under the headlight. no crud in the filter, and i can lean the bike like normal. i posted a pic of the intercooler side on the pub last night. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prs Posted July 14, 2007 Author Share Posted July 14, 2007 so last night i redid my fuel rail. drilled it out 1/16 bigger. got rid of the banjo fittings, and installed your old style 90 degree brass i had laying around,(which i also drilled out a little bigger). tonight i will give it a try. thanx here's a pic of the intercooler, with 2" inlet and outlet. even though the bottom two rows look blocked, they actually have over 1/2" on the inside for flow. i also have installed dual 5" fans on the cooler that come on at boost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HANKSXXX Posted July 14, 2007 Share Posted July 14, 2007 PRS, PM me your email address...I'd like to email you a pic of the intercooler on my bike...It might provide food for thought...Feel free to post it if you want the other guys opinions, as I'm not real savvy with the keyboards...Hank Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prs Posted July 15, 2007 Author Share Posted July 15, 2007 i haven't measured the pressure drop yet, because i have not seen 200hp yet. when i get the bike to run rich enough,and still don't have power, then i will suspect the intercooler and relocate the pressure line before the intercooler and compare the diff. yes, i fab'd it. i didn't weld it though. got a really good local guy. i spent many hours locating and making it, so i hope it doesn't restrict. but i enjoy doing this kind of stuff anyway, so it doesn't really matter if i have to remove it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prs Posted July 16, 2007 Author Share Posted July 16, 2007 it appears i have solved the ignition and fueling problems. the bike pulls pretty strong, power wheelies in second at 8k, doesn't miss, and revs to redline. this is with 18\45 gearing. i don't know how i'm getting 14lbs boost with a 9lb spring, but that is what i get. i'm gonna get it to about 11-12 before the dyno. i guess the intercooler and timing retard and water injection are doing their part, or this thing would be in pieces right now. i'm going to the dyno saturday to find out if all is ok, and get it mapped. it appears to really like high fuel pressure; something about 80psi at full boost, and a map number somewhere about +27. i also think i have either a a/f meter or 02 sensor problem. either bad 02 sensor or miscalibrated a/f meter. i can give the motor enough fuel to lay it down at 8k, but the meter still only reads 12.7. i will compare it with the dyno a/f meter and see. im also gonna remove the air inlet plumbing and make a pull after the bike is mapped, and see if the intake or intercooler is a restriction, and how much. thanx again for all your helps, and i will post the results, along with the map. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XX4me Posted July 17, 2007 Share Posted July 17, 2007 Hey Sorry I couldn't get back to you sooner, seems Sprint doesn't have any towers in the west. I'll be home tomorrow and try and call on wednesday. Shovel, I have to disagree on the injectors not being able to handle high pressures. I run mine at 80lbs of fuel pressure for 18lbs of boost. They work fine, with no tuning issues what so ever. EliXXir is right about smoothing or blending the cells of the PC map. They really don't like steep changes. Cool looking dash. Good idea on the steering dampner Interesting intercooler location. Good idea on the fans. I have thought about doing something similar for the intake using aluminium tubing. I replaced the stock banjo bolt out of the tank with an Earls 90 degrees fitting and then drilled out the end of the fuel rail to accept another larger fitting. Seems to work well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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