ironmike Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 '99 'Bird has been sitting for a while, so t'was time I took it out for a spin.. At first it didn't want want to start.. old gas?... but it finally did and off we go. I top off with fresh 93 fuel at a nearby station - it fires right up, no problem. Traffic is a bit heavy so I stay cool, go with the flow - no issues. After a stop for lunch, I head for home... but the bike feels weak, almost stalls leaving lights (1st gear). I get on the superslab, at 70 (6th) it feels like it's missing (like an intermittent spark gremlin, or fuel delivery hic-cup), but I can't really hear too well; drop to 5th & 4th and the rpms go up appropriately, but it just doesn't "feel" right. By the time I get to the house, it's spewing white smoke when I appply throttle (not at deceleration or idle)... this can't be good. I'm letting it cool off at the moment... before I start probing the cause... Bike is a stock '99, all original, 3200 miles (I know - low mileage, but I've got five other bikes to ride as well)... stays on a battery tender 24/7. Any suggestions where to begin looking..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bartonmd Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 white smoke is coolant (or water of some kind) getting burnt... it's actually steam. If I had to guess, I'd say head gasket... but that's not a high-failure rate item on these I don't think. Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rockmeupto125 Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Ouchie. Part of the problem with these types of posts is that the XX simply has no significant weak spots or history of failures to use for "probables." But white smoke and no power are the cardinal symptoms of a blown head gasket, which is an unusual, and bad deal. Do you have coolant in it, or just water? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXTi Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 How long has it been sitting? Was the tank full? You might try siphoning the tank and putting fresh fuel in. I don't suppose you could have had a freeze/crack problem since you are in LA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Byrdman Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Pop the radiator cap and look for brown fluid. Cylinder pressures are much higher than the pressure in a cooling system so when the cylinder is under pressure, burnt exhaust gas and fuel can be pumped into the cooling system, making it brown in color. Under negative pressure the cylinder sucks coolant into the cylinder. That's at least a place to start? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmike Posted November 10, 2004 Author Share Posted November 10, 2004 ... It's been sitting maybe a month... it does have Honda (50/50) coolant in it, and no apparent depletion as viewed in the reservoir. I've checked the oil (recently changed, Royal Purple 20w-50) and it's still fresh with no apparent coolant contamination... I plan to do a compression test after the bike's completely cooled. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rickrad Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 How hot was it running? The symptoms you desribe sounds like the way it runs when it is overheated and the white smoke would be coolant boiling over onto the headers. just my .02 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rockmeupto125 Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 I've torn stuff apart based only on the symptoms you reported. But one more verifier is always good before you start a project of that magnitude. Either a cylinder low on compression, bubbling back through the coolant, or a sniffer test for CO in the coolant would be definitive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rockmeupto125 Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Lets confirm that the white smoke is coming from the exhaust.......? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red J Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Leak down test would be better, it can tell you more about the general health of the engine than a compression test. Also, I'd do a pressure test on the coolant system, another great way to verify if you're losing coolant, and where. J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blaine Posted November 10, 2004 Share Posted November 10, 2004 Leak down test would be better, it can tell you more about the general health of the engine than a compression test.Also, I'd do a pressure test on the coolant system, another great way to verify if you're losing coolant, and where. J. WHAT HE SAID! :pointup: :pointup: Sorry to hear about this man, it really sucks when your bike acts up. :cry: Hope you get it up and running RIGHT, soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
XXTi Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 This bike only has 3200 miles on it gang. It's hard to believe it has a bad head gasket or other serious problem. I guess anything's possible. As rickrad asked earlier, did the bike get really hot? Is the radiator fan working? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmike Posted November 11, 2004 Author Share Posted November 11, 2004 Smoke was definitely coming from within the exhaust system... no evidence of coolant overflow or leakage, nothing getting on the pipes. Popped the radiator cap, system full, coolant in good condition, uncontaminated. Bike was not running hot; if anything, it was running cool (in the normal range but to the cooler side), generally 45-75 mph, so plenty of airflow, about 70*F. .. with the plastic off, I fired it up... and cylinders #2 & #3 are not firing (cold pipes confirm). In retrospect, that's what the bike felt like... running on two cylinders. I know the likelyhood of two plugs failing at the same instant is remote, so I suspect some other cause... (I'm still gonna look at the plugs). All wiring/connections appear to be intact; no recent additions/deletions to the electrical system. I'm in the process of getting to the plugs (thanks to our short-cut gurus, that project now takes half the time), but I've run out of time today. I got to the point of removing #1 plug and stopped... what do they torque these plugs to at the factory..? This one is tight! I thought about 9# was the setting - this one is way more. I haven't even started wrestling with the other plug boots yet - there's hardly any room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JasonW Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 I don't have my manual handy to know how the coils are paired, but if 2 and 3 are out, it might be just that coil not functioning properly. Just an idea............ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 things like this just don't happen to Honda's ... and at 3200 miles!!! How it turns out to be minor bud Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmike Posted November 11, 2004 Author Share Posted November 11, 2004 Plugs are out; #1 and #4 appear normal, #2 and #3 are gas fouled from not firing. In preparation to check the coil, the manual advises to first be certain of a fully charged battery. I double checked using a regular charger w/volt meter (notwithstanding that the bike stays on a battery tender when not in use); initial (no load) reading 12.6v - 12.8v... but when a 2amp trickle charge is applied, the charging voltage jumps to 16v. It's the original battery ('99) so I guess a replacement wouldn't hurt... It had plenty of juice to spin the starter motor, but I can't help but wonder if it has anything to do with my non-firing cylinders... The electrical systems have never been easy for me to fully comprehend or work on. Can a weak battery have such an effect..? Also, is there any trick to cleaning up the fouled plugs without damaging the platinum coating..? I've ordered plugs and an air filter as I've yet to find any locally but delivery is a week to ten days away, so re-using these plugs may be the plan. I'm off to pick up a new battery. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matey_peeps Posted November 11, 2004 Share Posted November 11, 2004 I don't have my manual handy to know how the coils are paired, but if 2 and 3 are out, it might be just that coil not functioning properly. Just an idea............ ding ding ding Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete in PA Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Sniff the exaust. Coolant mixture going in exaust has a very unique smell. Closest aproximation is a strong sweet potatoe smell. Since the bike sat, it might be a lot of condensation in exaust and tank. You're not supposed to clean platinum plugs with a sand blaster type cleaner. You'll wear the coating off. Try spraying with brake cleaner to dry them out and get them to fire. Once they fire and engine runs normal they'll self clean. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmike Posted November 12, 2004 Author Share Posted November 12, 2004 'Got a new battery... dealer said, "it's ready to go in the bike, full of electrolite, fully charged"... yeah right... 'Put it on a 2amp charger when I got home; it took just over 8 hours to fully charge. It'll go in the bike in the morning, then I can proceed with test procedures. Always fully charge a new battery - notwithstanding whatever the retailer has to say. More good news, I did find a set of new plugs; but I'm still gonna clean up and keep the set I've just removed in stock. Pete (in PA) reminded me of the distinct smell of boiling/burning coolant - he's right, one doesn't mistake that odor. The smoke only had a typical "running a bit rich exhaust smell"... just burnt gasoline. I re-checked the integrity of the coolant and the oil - no cross contamination. I'm now of the opinion that the smoke was most likely unignited fuel vapor pumped from cylinders #2 & #3 that did burn off when it reached header collector... thus the smoking only when the throttle was opened. Jason is on the right track as well (I think), as the left side coil fires #2 & #3 cylinders. I'll be testing/comparing both coils for voltage (peak 100v min) and spark... and as the coils are identical, I can switch them and re-test. Next test will be the ignition pulse generator voltage (0.7v min), but I'm inclined to think that won't be at issue as cylinders #1 & #4 were firing normally. I really don't want to think I've got an ECM problem. I did find a cautionary comment in the manual (trouble-shooting protocols) that indicated that a weak battery can be at the root of a host of problems, to include slower than normal statrer motor rpm and/or no spark at the plugs... It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to learn that reduced spark - or spark from only one coil could be attributed a battery of less than robust character... I've never heard of this particular issue (two dead cylinders) with the XX, but who knows..? ..please, let it be something simple... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Northman Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 Try the new plugs, first. It's possible the old, potentially contaminated fuel fouled the plugs right off. Before digging further. Remove all plugs, unhook coils. Roll the engine over for a few seconds with the throttle wide open. This will prevent any fuel from being injected, and help to clear out the cylinders. Use compressed air in the spark plugs if it's available to you. Drain the tank, and fill with fresh fuel (87 octane is fine, BTW). Then start up, rev the engine a few times to clear it out, and see what it does. If it's still running on two cylinders, try swapping coils, but you'll have to swap the wires over, as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RichardCranium Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 I bet a fucking rat chewed thru some of your wires. :grin: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmike Posted November 12, 2004 Author Share Posted November 12, 2004 Rotated motor w/o plugs to clear everything out. Added fresh fuel (93) New plugs, fresh (fully charged) battery... Both coils test the same, spark to all plugs... but the voltage (at + side of coils) doesn't rise above the battery level and it should go to 100v minimum when the starter motor spins up... Bike starts, runs on all four cylinders at first... then #2 & #3 quit. According to what I can find in the manual, it's starting to look like an ECM issue... damn it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rockmeupto125 Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 time to clean the grounds, and check the contacts to the ECM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redbird Posted November 12, 2004 Share Posted November 12, 2004 ECU is covered for five years as an emission related part. This fact came in handy for another member recently. Being a '99, it may already be too late. Check into it quick....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmike Posted November 13, 2004 Author Share Posted November 13, 2004 Damn it... I've done every test in the manual and the conclusion is still the same - the ECM is likely at fault. I'll check into the "emmissions warranty" aspect, but I suspect it's too late in the game... it was manufactured in January '99. Sold to the first owner in June 2000, who also bought an extended waranty that expired in June 2004. I'm the second owner, so the warranty transfered... but still expired in June '04... Wait a minute... if the warranty begins when the bike is delivered to the first registered owner (June 2000), and the "emissions warranty" runs for five years thereafter - assuming said "emissions warranty" commences at the same moment - wouldn't coverage be in force through June 2005..? I believe a visit to my local dealer is in order... just as soon as I put it back together... :wink: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.