ram air box modification

[cbrxxquad]

Ok, here goes!

I did not take any pictures cause I wanted to see what I could tell first.

But, with as much trouble as it is to get to I hope I can explain good enough.

On the bottom of the air box on the ram air there is two holes for letting out water that gets in when it rains. There is a boss on the outside, two nipples, is a better way to put it that I put some clear hose on both as there are two. I ran it down between number one and two throttle bodys and into a tee. on the branch of the tee I connected a device that will drain the water if any gets in but seals if any pressure happens. I don't know what to call it because I had it from along time ago and it came on a car vacumn system.

Well the purpose was to seal the box so any increase in pressure from the ram air would not go out those holes, you know? Well and I was wondering how much pressure the ram air made. And at what speeds. I am going to connect the map sensor to the innovate lm1 and record what happens.

Well, I took it out to check out the changes I have made today and I must say,,,,,,Without anything but the seat of the pants and my impression of the difference,,,,,,,

Just do it,,,,Damn!!!!!

It pulled harder, from the start. Well that ain't ram, but it did. It really pulled harder mid range. Ok I did find that my pc 2 had been leaned in the low setting. So that was what caused that cause I did set it back to center. Checked the others and they were centered,,,mid and high. I guess iI will have to correct evillxx's program where I richened the idle to 3k,,,,,maybe cause it likes it like it is.

Anyway, I am not ready for those speeds just yet!!!!! It ran up to 140 like I was on nitrous. That is as fast as I am going till I get more stable. It turns way to fast and I think it could throw me off,,,to many g's to hold on. I did have to much toe out,,,should have been toe in,,, and feels much better but need more before I go faster. set at 1/32". I am going to 1/8" and should be good.

Some body needs to try it with a plug where I have the auto drain and see if you can tell if it is really that much pressure going out the drain holes.

[Byrdman]

Hmmmmmmmmm...............

[beondwacko]

If I can remember to do it before next wednesday ( or if I can even get a chance for that matter ) I'll try the same thing before I go the the track again. So basically you're saying that the drain holes are draining air pressure from the ram air effect?

[TuffguyF4i]

Woun't this cause it to run lean at speed?

[EVLXX]

Hmmmmmmm... is right.

First, I didn't know of these holes you speak of, will go look later.

and secondly, most ram air systems don't really work until 70 mph. So if your seeing better take offs.... that would make me wonder if you weren't haveing leaking issues prior, and now you've fixxed them.

...

Always fucking with shit are'nt you... just can't leave well enough alone. Hmmm... we must be related somehow.

[davesXX01]

I siliconed mine shut a year ago, didn't notice much difference. Drove through many a downpour and checked the filter box last fall and no signs of any water whatsoever.

I don't think you should have to adjust your fueling as that is what the factory MAP sensor is for :icon_think:

I could be wrong though.

Dave

[cbrxxquad]

The map sensor takes care of the fuel adjustments, and the pressure would be higher at lower speeds than it was. With two 1/4 inch holes it would leak a lot of the pressure at lower speeds. I think since my pc had been corrected with the manual buttons and I didn't know, and I had corrected the program below 3k to fix the lean condition, when I changed the pc manual buttons, I made it rich,,,,,er at the low rpm.

I will do some afr recording this weekend, and see if I can get the connection from the map to the lm1 and see if the pressure changes with and without the plug.

I think I might be related to a bunch of folks here, Eric.

[DrDyno]

... I will do some afr recording this weekend, and see if I can get the connection from the map to the lm1 and see if the pressure changes with and without the plug.

Well, what happened??

[cbrxxquad]

Well, so far, above speed limit, the egt's go up above 1350 and it stopped accelerating at 135. Not enough fuel with Eric's map. I had to richen to get down to 1200. That makes more power above 90 but I pushed the hose out of the tee so I think it is making box pressure. I also had to plug some holes that you would not have to . They are on either side, inside, by the steering stem. It has rained so much I have not done the wiring to the map sensor. That is the real proof. I will have to supply pressure to the sensor artifially. and read the voltage, and program the lm1 with that number. Turn the recorder on and make a run with and without the hose pluged. If it changes the map sensor and the afr before and after we will know.

Sorry I have been preoccupied with ozarxx trip, Leon Russel concert, Sport bike rally at Irrian, oh yeah work. I will get to it, because I have seen that I really have a wall at 140. Will not accelerate any faster. Now that I have the stability good at those speeds, I can make some runs. Just not very often. This weekend, at Ozarxx, not many places to get above 100, but with the stock map, and the system correct, together, it pulled hard, never layed down like before. I had put a 18 on the front before I left, and I was still looking for 7th, just not above 7k.

I want to have real info, before I sayanything, but if you ask I will give updates.

I was really hoping somebody else would do the high speed testing,,,,,,,I still got some work to feel that safe, at that speed.

[Byrdman]

Damn, I just had the airbox out to install my HID's and I forgot to screw with this..........

[EVLXX]

I think.........

you're hitting a wall at 135 - 40ish , because of your Steering geometery.

That some bitch is a frigin bear to turn.

With 6% caster, at 140 mph, those car tires are trying to dive into the ground.

Remember that those forces are going to exponetial.

I would either put the Caster at 1% with 0% camber, -or- put the caster at 0% and then camber it at +1%.

Then try again.

[DrDyno]

I think......... you're hitting a wall at 135 - 40ish , because of your Steering geometery. That some bitch is a frigin bear to turn. With 6% caster, at 140 mph, those car tires are trying to dive into the ground. Remember that those forces are going to exponetial. I would either put the Caster at 1% with 0% camber, -or- put the caster at 0% and then camber it at +1%...

Yeah... what Eric said!

Seriously, QUAD, that is an amazing looking machine! Do you have its construction documented anywhere? I'd enjoy knowing more about it.

The thing I most wonder about is the integrity of the rear axle at speed. Without any outboard axle trunions it amazes me it's willing to track straight. Is it a one-piece axle? If so, how does it turn at speed?? Takes a lot of balls to crack a ton on that machine!

[cbrxxquad]

Well, Eric, when I got home I figured out that I had turned the preload adjuster the wrong way, caster was up to 10 deg. I had the tires at 20 for the ride instead of 32 like I had with Vic on it.

So the steerng might be a little heavy for you but It will track down the hwy without any input. Of course it is an exercise machine for me. That is why I was wore out when we got back. I am going to tne out all of the angle just to see, but I don't think the thing I was talking about with the wall was drag related as before I was able to do 135 in 5th before I closed the box and the egts were 1200 not 1350. I think it leaned out. I had backed off before due to the twitchyness, if that is a word. Darty maybe. But I was plus on the toe in and going neg removed that.

As to how I did the conversion, well documented here since the start. I had no idea what to do, so I just winged it. Never thought it would work like it does. It has no differental, solid axle and hubs. Standard motorcross stuff, but all aftermarket. The rear carrier housing came from a stock 400ex swingarm that one of the boys broke twice and the third time I told him he needed a aftremarket race one. Kept it and used the end on this with a doubble roller billitt carrier. Axle is a durablue x33 with pened hubs. I killed three alum. sproket hubs before they made me a cm steel one. I killed the cast hubs, well one of them, so I had some cnc'd out of 7075 billitt. Going to do the front hubs soon. The front spindles are standard cannondale as well as the hubs.

For background, I welded a cannondale front frame on the bird frame. It fit like it was factory. Can not get it wrong. The rear is bird just cut the welds and straightened the legs and angled into the 400ex carrier Fit like a glove, could not get wrong.

Nothing to it really.

Now there are some tricks in there, I am not going to lie to ya.

Hey, Eric, Todd was able to turn it. I think having a solid bar is a good thing. Oh, yeah, the dampener was on full also.

As to how it turns at speed,,,,well it picks up the inside rear tire when you turn because of roll, well the compression of the outside front supension. This removes the need for a diff. Now slow speed scrubs the tires on the rear. We lean forward and out to unload the inside rear tire a little at slow turns, like walking speeds. Above 4 mph not needed. Once you can compress the front in a turn it unloads the inside rear, and around you go.

Now at any more you lean inside just like a bike, only the bike does not lean. I know for sure it will rail at the same speed a bike does. From behind I am told it picks up the rear, but I can't feel it.

[EVLXX]

per our discussion at the meet...

I would also be scared to set the steering Geo at Zero -Zero. But I would go for a negative .5 - 1 % on the caster, with a zero camber, and zero toe.

The Camber and toe will give you the twitchyness you speak of because of the plowing forces generated, then ever time one tire looses it Load slightly, the other tire would push fast, making for a very unstable steering feel.

The Negative caster with zero camber on the other hand should give you a more constant bite. Basically the tires will constantly be trying to grab the road. But too much grab (6%).. will act increasingly harder on the bike as the speed increases. So the faster you go.. the more it will be Biting and in esence braking.

The solid rear should also give you some more straight line stability, since it will always want to go straight. As far as the rear axle flex, believe it or not but it only adds to your cornering traction. As the axle flex's it creates more negative Camber, and thus increases the tires side force contact patch. Although there is also a happy medium to this as well. Following you so last saturday, led me to thinking it might be flexing just a bit too much. If it was mine... after I got the front end sorted out, I would try shortening the rear shafts, maybe 2 " on each side.

Instead of modeling your numbers after automobile stuff... you might want to look at the Cart specs. As they more resemble what you doing. I had a friend that raced Carts for a while... and that's where I'm pulling some of my dusty memory numbers from.

I also understand all of this is tuesday night quarterbacking from me to you... only your real world testing will find the best set-up, and I wish you the best at that.

Other than that It's an awesome machine. Good work.

[cbrxxquad]

per our discussion at the meet...

I would also be scared to set the steering Geo at Zero -Zero. But I would go for a negative .5 - 1 % on the caster, with a zero camber, and zero toe.

The Camber and toe will give you the twitchyness you speak of because of the plowing forces generated, then ever time one tire looses it Load slightly, the other tire would push fast, making for a very unstable steering feel.

The Negative caster with zero camber on the other hand should give you a more constant bite. Basically the tires will constantly be trying to grab the road. But too much grab (6%).. will act increasingly harder on the bike as the speed increases. So the faster you go.. the more it will be Biting and in esence braking.

The solid rear should also give you some more straight line stability, since it will always want to go straight. As far as the rear axle flex, believe it or not but it only adds to your cornering traction. As the axle flex's it creates more negative Camber, and thus increases the tires side force contact patch. Although there is also a happy medium to this as well. Following you so last saturday, led me to thinking it might be flexing just a bit too much. If it was mine... after I got the front end sorted out, I would try shortening the rear shafts, maybe 2 " on each side.

Instead of modeling your numbers after automobile stuff... you might want to look at the Cart specs. As they more resemble what you doing. I had a friend that raced Carts for a while... and that's where I'm pulling some of my dusty memory numbers from.

I also understand all of this is tuesday night quarterbacking from me to you... only your real world testing will find the best set-up, and I wish you the best at that.

Other than that It's an awesome machine. Good work.

I dont think the axle will flex, maybe the arm. As far as Cart spec's, if they run those, would relate other than they have no front give. I know that bump and roll and acerman change the contact patch. I had thought that neg camber would run on the inside or the tire when straight. It is flat now, at 0 deg.

I was thinking I wanted a wider axle. But, if you saw flex I sure don't.

I need to do some temp checks with the ir gun.

[cbrxxquad]

Ok, you made me go look, Eric, and I thought I had turned the preload asjuster the right way. And I had. But it was lower in the back, alot lower, too low. The tag was hitting the swing arm.

Before, I had it set up easy enough to let a girl drive it, so when you said it was hard,,,, the changes I had made, didn't add up to you thinking it was hard!

Broken rear shock mount on the swingarm. Well cracked that is. You didn't go off road did ya????

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

[Byrdman]

Broken rear shock mount on the swingarm. Well cracked that is. You didn't go off road did ya????

Now I'm glad I didn't ride it, you would have blamed the fat guy for sure!!!

Also, in regards to axle flex; there is definitely a certain amount of it while you are riding. When you and the wifey road out to Cycle Gadgets, Todd and I were behind you in the truck. There was a noticable amount of flex although I'm sure the axle was designed to flex some.......... Just wanted you to know.

[EVLXX]

Ok, you made me go look, Eric, and I thought I had turned the preload asjuster the right way. And I had. But it was lower in the back, alot lower, too low. The tag was hitting the swing arm.

Before, I had it set up easy enough to let a girl drive it, so when you said it was hard,,,, the changes I had made, didn't add up to you thinking it was hard!

Broken rear shock mount on the swingarm. Well cracked that is. You didn't go off road did ya????

Oh well, back to the drawing board.

Well, not quite off road...

Dirt Road, maybe.

But, I'll never tell you that she comes around really fast...

Going in circles...

Well.... I had to turn around somewhere. Plus I had to find out how stable she was in a slide.

But in all fairness the road was smooth... no bumps, and I was easy on her. She's Fun.

Too bad you live so far away.... I'ld a loved to take it out for some "test rides" for ya more often.

[cbrxxquad]

Can you say,,,,,, get off for the fourth of July around Pikes Peak????

Don't you think that would be a hoot!!!!!

Jeff, I thought you were just big boned.

Naw, I had a mount added to the swingarm from the Cannondale frame that worked good for off road on the direct mount shock. I had built some plates to lower the rear and changed the angle of force on it. Went from straight into the mount to twisting it. Was a test to see if lowering the rear would stick the rear tires better, it did. I ment to add another if I was going to leave it that way. The deal is the mount has to be removable to get the bolt in the lower shock mount. Was going to have to remove the swing arm to do it right. A lot of work to tear it down. I need to add some threaded holes to the new hubs as they are tight and I heat to install.....getting off is work.

Before I had run forward to another tab with a bridge making three points. I had thought the two would be strong enough for the street. Think I will add another to prevent the twisting motion, then throw Jeff on it.

That axle should not flex visability. Now the arm, yes. What are you seeing? Tire changing profile? Sounds like you think it is toeing out in the turns? That might be flex in the arm. Would not think it would do that that way though. Twisting yes.

I had done some research on a rear differental, chain drive type. Found a quaffie that is being used in race cars that use the bird and other motors in race cars. I always thought it would be nessasary on the street. Looked at doing a banjo housing and a-arm. The harley trike rear would work also. Just weight problem for off road. Wondered about aluminum banjo and found an aluminum diff. The kind of flex your talking about might be the problem. Ifr could be more solid. With the expence of cg.

I wonder sometimes about sticking on a stock rear how it would work,,,like the Can Am, just for fun. Don't think that if I am flexing that axle, that it would corner as well with the single rear at speed but it would turn better slow. Sure would be easier and cheaper to build.

[EVLXX]

Can you say,,,,,, get off for the fourth of July around Pikes Peak????

Don't you think that would be a hoot!!!!!

A highSchool buddy, that lives 2 blocks away, built and raced his 310 Honda up Pikes Peak last year. Wasn't able to make it myself. But have always wanted to go...

They now have a Exabision Class... that's basically unlimited. We have some ideas going for building a Very radical Racer. Won't happen on this years budget... but we'll see about later.

Personally I would love to race up the hill, but my wife think's it's too dangerous and won't even let me think about it. So I have to help my friend for any involvement.

You come up for the races.. and I'll make time. PM me more about this if it looks like it might be a go.

[cbrxxquad]

Can you say,,,,,, get off for the fourth of July around Pikes Peak????

Don't you think that would be a hoot!!!!!

A highSchool buddy, that lives 2 blocks away, built and raced his 310 Honda up Pikes Peak last year. Wasn't able to make it myself. But have always wanted to go...

They now have a Exabision Class... that's basically unlimited. We have some ideas going for building a Very radical Racer. Won't happen on this years budget... but we'll see about later.

Personally I would love to race up the hill, but my wife think's it's too dangerous and won't even let me think about it. So I have to help my friend for any involvement.

You come up for the races.. and I'll make time. PM me more about this if it looks like it might be a go.

I had heard it was invitation only,hence the involvement of Bobby Parr, a friend who holds the record. He is running monster trucks now but I got involved with him in the Quad wars. Can not get him to call me back after he saw the quad bird. He has a cousin that my son knows well. may have to get him to get in touch. Hell I would run up it and that is for sure. Bobby is fast but I am faster on this in the dirt.

[beondwacko]

I had heard it was invitation only,hence the involvement of Bobby Parr, a friend who holds the record. He is running monster trucks now but I got involved with him in the Quad wars. Can not get him to call me back after he saw the quad bird. He has a cousin that my son knows well. may have to get him to get in touch. Hell I would run up it and that is for sure. Bobby is fast but I am faster on this in the dirt.

It seems almost shamefull to use that awsome machine in the dirt , but I guess that's partially what you made it for. Too bad that you aren't going to be able to make it to the Moroso event by me. They will be racing ( Drag , full 1/4 mile ) quads. Being that I have never seen that before, I'm kinda looking forward to that portion of the night.

[ActionStarCBRxx]

You monkeys cant stay focused on the thread?? AIR BOX MOD? Whats the final verdict?

[cbrxxquad]

You monkeys cant stay focused on the thread?? AIR BOX MOD? Whats the final verdict?

good point, oh wait , I posted this, and I need to do something, wire the map sensor to the lm 1 and program. Well I been building the new shock mount cause I broke the other one and blamed Eric. He can take it. Thought I had a good mount but it is to low, coool but lo low.

Wish I could run it that low, but hits the mufflers. I can shorten them enough to clear, or change the mount.

Sorry ASC I should be doing the map sensor, but I can't ride.

Priorities.

[CxBXR]

Quadwars mmmmmmm sound's interesting, Heres the rear of mine