ironmike

... although the shop is closed until next Tuesday, so I know it'll be mid-week before I get with the tech again... Thanks, Northman..

... over-fueling is at least a symptom, but I can't help thinking there's more to it. I understand there's supposed to be contant psi at the fuel pump, but I don't know if there's a default mode in the ECM should a drop in pressure (as would be the case in a leak or an open -constant- injector.. or two) occur... sort of a "limp home" mode of reduced psi... Nobody seems to have a handle on the exact programming of the factory ECM; everything I've heard so far is admittedly speculation. It has spark, at least at start-up... when I next talk to the tech I'll ask if he's checked for spark when the two cylinders seem to die - an inductive timing light ought to provide that answer. I'll pass on your suggestions re: fuel delivery system as well. Now as for any damage that occured when it hydro-locked... well, we know who did that.

The dealership's service manager called and asked me to come in... they need to talk with me. I get with the tech who's actually working on my 'Bird and we discuss the diagnosis... essentially, he's stumped. He ran all the same tests that I did (per the shop manual) and arrived at the same conclusion - ECM glitch. Northman, you were on to something when you asked if I was using a peak voltage reader (PVR) or a multimeter. Per the tech, a multimeter won't give the desired reading; a "special" proprietary Honda PVR is required.. (BS, I think). Nonetheless, the tech thought it's the ECM, because everything else seemed to check out. So, he ordered and installed a new ECM. The bike fired right up on all cylinders, but #2 & #3 quit within moments... and for whatever reason, he apparently kept revving it (or at least let it run) until raw fuel flooded cylinders #2 & #3, flooding the air box - fuel spurting from the vent hose, either washing past the rings or succumbing to vacuum through the case vent, and filling the crankcase (and cylinders #2 & #3), ultimately hydro-locking the engine with fuel. The tech explained all this to me as I viewed the gas-soaked engine (throttle bodies, air box/filter, etc.) and shop floor. At this point, he acknowledged that he hadn't a clue... but he would drain the cranckcase (add fresh oil/filter), purge the cylinders and injection system, and start over. We both tended to agree that it's most likely an electrical problem... the fuel pump sure as hell works... He made a number of comments about the regulator/rectifier being at the root of a host of electrical issues that often don't really seem to make sense. I've had no discernable problem with the R/R, and only replaced the original battery (which was working fine) when this overall problem began. The emissions warranty is good until June '05. The ECM and many other components are all specifically covered, as is labor and diagnostic procedures. What is conspicuously absent from such coverage is the R/R. When I know more, I'll advise.

I'll most likely do the rear shock first... and there seems to be a preference for the Penske and Ohlins, but I'm not certain I understand why... or if one is preferable to the other. I've read the comments that Pug (Greece) made about WP shocks, as well.. anyone else have experience with them..? Are there other considerations besides performance, longevity (warranty), and cost..? I'm a reasonably competent wrench, so installation difficulty (if any) is not a weighty factor.

... what components would you choose, and why..? I've been contemplating doing so, but I think I'd be well advised to duly consider the opinions of those who have more experience and wisdom in that arena. I know this may engender a disagreement or two, but spirited debate and speculative discourse are (and always have been) hallmarks of our "healthy" board community. Besides, I hope to learn something... :wink:

... wear pretty quick if your bars are knurled (assuming no rotating sleeves). I use old fingerless riding gloves - once I wear a hole in 'em (or split a seam), I trash 'em. I go through about about three pair in about 18-20 months... but once your calluses build up a bit, you won't need the gloves as much. Try to keep your hands dry during your workout; the towel is your friend... :wink:

Are you using the link that Parts Monster carries..? I'm toying with the idea as well.

Swapped the coils - no change (coils are also covered as "emission components). I am using a multimeter. The voltage at the + side should be the same as the battery (12.8v) w/key on; when the starter is spun, the voltage should go to 100v (minimum). If it doesn't, the ECM is suspect (Manual, 17-3). Then, per the manual, you test the ECM (gray) connector (yellow + and white/yellow -) for 0.7v when the starter spins - I got 0.0v... Then you test the ignition pulse generator for peak voltage (0.7v) when the starter spins - I got 0.0v... Then you're refered back to the trouble-shooting chart (17-3) that suggests the ECM is at fault. As it happens, all of the suspect components are covered under the "emissions warranty".

Damn it... I've done every test in the manual and the conclusion is still the same - the ECM is likely at fault. I'll check into the "emmissions warranty" aspect, but I suspect it's too late in the game... it was manufactured in January '99. Sold to the first owner in June 2000, who also bought an extended waranty that expired in June 2004. I'm the second owner, so the warranty transfered... but still expired in June '04... Wait a minute... if the warranty begins when the bike is delivered to the first registered owner (June 2000), and the "emissions warranty" runs for five years thereafter - assuming said "emissions warranty" commences at the same moment - wouldn't coverage be in force through June 2005..? I believe a visit to my local dealer is in order... just as soon as I put it back together... :wink:

Rotated motor w/o plugs to clear everything out. Added fresh fuel (93) New plugs, fresh (fully charged) battery... Both coils test the same, spark to all plugs... but the voltage (at + side of coils) doesn't rise above the battery level and it should go to 100v minimum when the starter motor spins up... Bike starts, runs on all four cylinders at first... then #2 & #3 quit. According to what I can find in the manual, it's starting to look like an ECM issue... damn it.

'Got a new battery... dealer said, "it's ready to go in the bike, full of electrolite, fully charged"... yeah right... 'Put it on a 2amp charger when I got home; it took just over 8 hours to fully charge. It'll go in the bike in the morning, then I can proceed with test procedures. Always fully charge a new battery - notwithstanding whatever the retailer has to say. More good news, I did find a set of new plugs; but I'm still gonna clean up and keep the set I've just removed in stock. Pete (in PA) reminded me of the distinct smell of boiling/burning coolant - he's right, one doesn't mistake that odor. The smoke only had a typical "running a bit rich exhaust smell"... just burnt gasoline. I re-checked the integrity of the coolant and the oil - no cross contamination. I'm now of the opinion that the smoke was most likely unignited fuel vapor pumped from cylinders #2 & #3 that did burn off when it reached header collector... thus the smoking only when the throttle was opened. Jason is on the right track as well (I think), as the left side coil fires #2 & #3 cylinders. I'll be testing/comparing both coils for voltage (peak 100v min) and spark... and as the coils are identical, I can switch them and re-test. Next test will be the ignition pulse generator voltage (0.7v min), but I'm inclined to think that won't be at issue as cylinders #1 & #4 were firing normally. I really don't want to think I've got an ECM problem. I did find a cautionary comment in the manual (trouble-shooting protocols) that indicated that a weak battery can be at the root of a host of problems, to include slower than normal statrer motor rpm and/or no spark at the plugs... It wouldn't hurt my feelings one bit to learn that reduced spark - or spark from only one coil could be attributed a battery of less than robust character... I've never heard of this particular issue (two dead cylinders) with the XX, but who knows..? ..please, let it be something simple...

Plugs are out; #1 and #4 appear normal, #2 and #3 are gas fouled from not firing. In preparation to check the coil, the manual advises to first be certain of a fully charged battery. I double checked using a regular charger w/volt meter (notwithstanding that the bike stays on a battery tender when not in use); initial (no load) reading 12.6v - 12.8v... but when a 2amp trickle charge is applied, the charging voltage jumps to 16v. It's the original battery ('99) so I guess a replacement wouldn't hurt... It had plenty of juice to spin the starter motor, but I can't help but wonder if it has anything to do with my non-firing cylinders... The electrical systems have never been easy for me to fully comprehend or work on. Can a weak battery have such an effect..? Also, is there any trick to cleaning up the fouled plugs without damaging the platinum coating..? I've ordered plugs and an air filter as I've yet to find any locally but delivery is a week to ten days away, so re-using these plugs may be the plan. I'm off to pick up a new battery.

Smoke was definitely coming from within the exhaust system... no evidence of coolant overflow or leakage, nothing getting on the pipes. Popped the radiator cap, system full, coolant in good condition, uncontaminated. Bike was not running hot; if anything, it was running cool (in the normal range but to the cooler side), generally 45-75 mph, so plenty of airflow, about 70*F. .. with the plastic off, I fired it up... and cylinders #2 & #3 are not firing (cold pipes confirm). In retrospect, that's what the bike felt like... running on two cylinders. I know the likelyhood of two plugs failing at the same instant is remote, so I suspect some other cause... (I'm still gonna look at the plugs). All wiring/connections appear to be intact; no recent additions/deletions to the electrical system. I'm in the process of getting to the plugs (thanks to our short-cut gurus, that project now takes half the time), but I've run out of time today. I got to the point of removing #1 plug and stopped... what do they torque these plugs to at the factory..? This one is tight! I thought about 9# was the setting - this one is way more. I haven't even started wrestling with the other plug boots yet - there's hardly any room.

... It's been sitting maybe a month... it does have Honda (50/50) coolant in it, and no apparent depletion as viewed in the reservoir. I've checked the oil (recently changed, Royal Purple 20w-50) and it's still fresh with no apparent coolant contamination... I plan to do a compression test after the bike's completely cooled.

'99 'Bird has been sitting for a while, so t'was time I took it out for a spin.. At first it didn't want want to start.. old gas?... but it finally did and off we go. I top off with fresh 93 fuel at a nearby station - it fires right up, no problem. Traffic is a bit heavy so I stay cool, go with the flow - no issues. After a stop for lunch, I head for home... but the bike feels weak, almost stalls leaving lights (1st gear). I get on the superslab, at 70 (6th) it feels like it's missing (like an intermittent spark gremlin, or fuel delivery hic-cup), but I can't really hear too well; drop to 5th & 4th and the rpms go up appropriately, but it just doesn't "feel" right. By the time I get to the house, it's spewing white smoke when I appply throttle (not at deceleration or idle)... this can't be good. I'm letting it cool off at the moment... before I start probing the cause... Bike is a stock '99, all original, 3200 miles (I know - low mileage, but I've got five other bikes to ride as well)... stays on a battery tender 24/7. Any suggestions where to begin looking..?

.. but I couldn't get it to work right... ' sent it back. I tried it because I have one on a '01 GL1800 that works just fine; but I couldn't get one to work on my '99 XX. :???:

... a leaf blower/air compressor would speed it up. It'll be tough looking for what sounds like a water-impacted short in the start/ignition system when everything is wet. Dry something out and then test it; you'll find it through process of elimination. Pay close attention to your kill switch. If it was running fine before its prolonged bath... the water is going to be the culprit.

.. the easy stuff... check your ground (-) cable connections first... :wink:

Does anyone know of a source for the wheel balance weights (like Honda uses) on the stock 'Bird and/or GL1800 wheels... the spring clip type that pinch onto the raised rib along the centerline of the wheel...? I'm looking for a "shop set" like you'd find in a dealership... no, dealerships have not been helpful. It seems someone mentioned this before, but it may have been before we switched to the current format so a search didn't seem to help. :???:

... is the subjective estimation of whatever "proper torque" (per spec) feels like to the rider. Over time, assuming you've repeatedly set proper torque via the correct tool, you'll develop a sense of the right "feel". Old Biker Trick... Without cables too tight, or anything significantly disturbing the balance of the bars... Bike upright, front end intact, off the ground (the front of the bike should be a few degrees higher than the rear, or have the front axle about 2" higher than the rear axle). This helps the next step. Now, in my experience almost all street bikes, notwithstanding bearing type (ball, roller, timken, etc), can find a "happy spot" when the neck is just snug enough so that the trees, if tipped by about a third to the left or right would gently and smoothly (at a steady rate) fall the rest of the way to the stop - test each side. If it's too fast, snug the neck/stem more... if it won't budge, loosen just a hair at a time. There should be no slop. Test ride. Fine tune to your personal taste... then measure the torque with an accurate t-wrench and record your results. Compare to factory recommendations, and keep good notes. You'll be fitting the bike to your preferred settings - just stay within reasonable parameters of the recommended specifications.

... Yep, use it (varying viscosity weights) in all my bikes and am very satisfied with it. I buy it in 5 gal. kegs... one keg of 20w-50 will last me about a year in Louisiana heat... :cool:

..D. HOOKERS!!!! I keep a "good" 12v battery in the shop for troubleshooting electrical gremlins... and an old "Diehard" auto battery for "jump starts"... periodic trickle chargers on both.

... but mechanically there's essentially little or no difference.. well, except the gauges... analog vs digital. The earlier ('99-'00) have analog - later are digital. As an old pilot, I have a preference for the analog gauges - but that's just me. But don't let the age (or the mileage either) of a FI 'Bird scare you; the care and routine maintenace are far more important. These may well be the finest engineered bikes ever available to the public; and with proper care & feeding, they'll seemingly last forever. :wink:

... any loose fasteners, like the sprocket nuts... when you check the alignments...

..I foresee a trade for some other tire. Why tempt fate..? Thanks for the info, Carlos. Moving on to plan "B"... :???: