bpg Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 From the get-go: shut off my bike (2002 XX, 64K miles, has the big/finned R/R) after returning from work last week, re-started it a few minutes later to spray some lube on the chain up, no problem. About an hour later went to go on an evening jaunt, no go. Gave a faint, weak whir of the starter motor, then only dim dash lights. Jumped from another bike, started up fine but wouldn't climb above 12.5V no matter how high it was revved so I left it sit. The battery was about 3 YO, so I decided to start w/ a brand new, freshly charged battery (slow charged it at 1.5 amps all night first), and got the same results; voltage across batt. terminals stayed around 12V at all revs, did not fluctuate (FWIW, battery was at 13+ volts when charged, so obviously the bike was not charging the battery). Gotta be the stator and/or R/R, wishfully hoping for the latter... Now pardon me as I over-explain this, wanted to do so for the benefit of others that might have a similar situation in the future, and provide some more data points on the Bird's charging system issues. Ran through the diagnosis chart: http://www.cbr1100xx.org/files/reference/charging_diag.pdf Following that diagnosis with a digital multi-meter (DMM): - Had lower than 13.5VDC @ 2500 RPM (= 12.2VDC when I checked that time). Down 1 step. - R/R has 3 yellow, 2 red/white, 2 green and 1 black wire = 4 total colors. Down 1 step. - engine idling, black lead to batt. (+), red lead to to red/white R/R wire = 0.12VDC. Down 1 step. - engine idling, red lead to batt. (-), black lead to green R/R wire = 0.07 VDC. Down 1 step (to "B") - engine idling, Red lead to to batt (+) and black lead to black R/R wire = 0.52VDC Over 1 step??? OK, this concerned me a bit as more than 0.2VDC in the chart leads to a "bad connection from batt (+) through ignition switch to switched +12V supply inlet on R/R". I will open and clean out the ignition switch just in case, but I still wanted to check out the R/R and Stator independently (and glad I did!) - I didn't bother checking out stator resistance, I just wanted to know if it was putting out the juice or not. Engine running @ 5,000 RPM, I got the following readings across the 3 yellow stator wires: 8.8VAC, 12.2VAC, & 20.0VAC. = stator is at fault (which makes sense given that the bike was not charging enough, instead of overcharging) Knowing the stator is bad, then I checked the R/R: It took me a bit to find the "diode test function" on the meter, on this DMM it looks like it's in with the OHM selection range, that's what threw me. So assuming I'm using the meter the right way, here are the results: - Black lead to red R/R wire, red lead to all 3 yellow R/R wires in sequence = 0.5Volts, OK (spec was "around 0.5 V") - Red lead to green R/R wire, black lead to all 3 yellow R/R wires in sequence = 0.5 volts, OK (spec was "around 0.5 V") Based on this, should I grab an R1 R/R to install as well as the stator - just in case? Or is the '02 R/R robust enough to handle a few more years. Based on the R/R diagnosis, it seems like I caught the stator issue before it damaged the R/R - thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 From the get-go: shut off my bike (2002 XX, had the big/finned R/R) after returning from work last week, re-started it a few minutes later to spray some lube on the chain up, no problem. About an hour later went to go on an evening jaunt, no go. Gave a faint, weak whir of the starter motor, then only dim dash lights. Jumped from another bike, started up fine but wouldn't climb above 12.5V no matter how high it was revved so I left it sit. The battery was about 3 YO, so I decided to start w/ a brand new, freshly charged battery (slow charged it at 1.5 amps all night first), and got the same results; voltage across batt. terminals stayed around 12V at all revs, did not fluctuate (FWIW, battery was at 13+ volts when charged, so obviously the bike was not charging the battery). Gotta be the stator and/or R/R, wishfully hoping for the latter... Now pardon me as I over-explain this, wanted to do so for the benefit of others that might have a similar situation in the future, and provide some more data points on the Bird's charging system issues. Ran through the diagnosis chart: http://www.cbr1100xx.org/files/reference/charging_diag.pdf Following that diagnosis with a digital multi-meter (DMM): - Had lower than 13.5VDC @ 2500 RPM (= 12.2VDC when I checked that time). Down 1 step. - R/R has 3 yellow, 2 red/white, 2 green and 1 black wire = 4 total colors. Down 1 step. - engine idling, black lead to batt. (+), red lead to to red/white R/R wire = 0.12VDC. Down 1 step. - engine idling, red lead to batt. (-), black lead to green R/R wire = 0.07 VDC. Down 1 step (to "B") - engine idling, Red lead to to batt (+) and black lead to black R/R wire = 0.52VDC Over 1 step??? OK, this concerned me a bit as more than 0.2VDC in the chart leads to a "bad connection from batt (+) through ignition switch to switched +12V supply inlet on R/R". I will open and clean out the ignition switch just in case, but I still wanted to check out the R/R and Stator independently (and glad I did!) - I didn't bother checking out stator resistance, I just wanted to know if it was putting out the juice or not. Engine running @ 5,000 RPM, I got the following readings across the 3 yellow stator wires: 8.8VAC, 12.2VAC, & 20.0VAC. = stator is at fault (which makes sense given that the bike was not charging enough, instead of overcharging) Knowing the stator is bad, then I checked the R/R: It took me a bit to find the "diode test function" on the meter, on this DMM it looks like it's in with the OHM selection range, that's what threw me. So assuming I'm using the meter the right way, here are the results: - Black lead to red R/R wire, red lead to all 3 yellow R/R wires in sequence = 0.5Volts, OK (spec was "around 0.5 V") - Red lead to green R/R wire, black lead to all 3 yellow R/R wires in sequence = 0.5 volts, OK (spec was "around 0.5 V") Based on this, should I grab an R1 R/R to install as well as the stator - just in case? Or is the '02 R/R robust enough to handle a few more years. Based on the R/R diagnosis, it seems like I caught the stator issue before it damaged the R/R - thoughts? If the R/R works, leave it... mine was fine, but I got an after-market one when I did my stator and replaced it anyway. I keep the extra in my tool bag now.... one never knows. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 6, 2008 Author Share Posted September 6, 2008 Well, I ordered an R1 R/R just in case... If the new stator solves the charging problem, I'll just set up the R1 R/R so that it can be readily dropped in to replace the original should it ever fail - might even pre-run the wire and everything. FWIW, the connector between the stator and R/R looked great - clean, no signs of charring, burning or high heat. Of course, I still want to know how my stator died (I DO run heated gear/grips, GPS & radar, and very occasionally sat. radio, but I do have a voltmeter right on the dash to switch stuff off (or rev the bike!) if it charges below, say, 13VDC - which only happened at idle anyway, even with everything on at once).. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 6, 2008 Share Posted September 6, 2008 Well, I ordered an R1 R/R just in case... If the new stator solves the charging problem, I'll just set up the R1 R/R so that it can be readily dropped in to replace the original should it ever fail - might even pre-run the wire and everything. FWIW, the connector between the stator and R/R looked great - clean, no signs of charring, burning or high heat. Of course, I still want to know how my stator died (I DO run heated gear/grips, GPS & radar, and very occasionally sat. radio, but I do have a voltmeter right on the dash to switch stuff off (or rev the bike!) if it charges below, say, 13VDC - which only happened at idle anyway, even with everything on at once).. My stock stator died at @ 50k... I run in extreme weather w/ heated gear, aux lighting etc. I replaced it with an eletrosport which is better built and has more output (an extra 150 watts or so). I just blame constant high current draws for mines failure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 7, 2008 Author Share Posted September 7, 2008 Update - ordered the stator from Rick's: http://www.ricksmotorsportelectrics.com/partsearch.php $140 shipped, supposed to be as good as OEM and significantly less expensive. Used the great guide from Hobi to pull the stator: http://www.cbr1100xx.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=53455 Not that it was that hard to pull the stator, but Hobi's instructions included some good nuggets such as not cutting the wire straps (I'd have knifed right through them had I not read his comments) Here's my old stator: You can see the bare wires and burned/crispy insulation in the last one: While I had the tail cowl & left panel off and the tank propped up, I decided to check all the connections and fuses that were accessible and give them some contact cleaner and then dielectric grease. Most looked great, but this big 'un (basically located above the gearbox and below the rear of the tank beside a similar smaller connection) looked pretty corroded: Here's where it was located: I also replaced the relay that feeds my fuse block for the heated grips, radar, heated jacket, GPS and dash voltmeter, just in case. When I get it back together I'll run it without said fuse block connected, then turn on each circuit at a time to check for anything strange, just in case. Hopefully she charges well over 13VDC again with the new stator!! FWIW, again, the R/R connectors looked great and the R/R (supposedly) checked out fine in my diagnosis. ordered an R1 R/R anyway - my current line of thought is to just swap in the R1 R/R, and have the original one under the tail as a spare... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuXXtin Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Thiks for the pics and comments on the stator Bren. My is good now.. but ya never know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 8, 2008 Author Share Posted September 8, 2008 Thiks for the pics and comments on the stator Bren. My is good now.. but ya never know. No sweat - THere's a LOT of great info already on here about the stator and R/R, just wanted to compile some of it and add some data points based on my own experience.. Hopefully she's spinnin' by the end of the week when all my part come in!! Hey, you comin' to WV w/ us at the end of the month??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JuXXtin Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 Hey, you comin' to WV w/ us at the end of the month??? No doubt... will be a fun time...! ...but can't... :icon_silenced: But at least it's not cause I'm doing my hair/dishes/laundry, I promise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sondance Posted September 8, 2008 Share Posted September 8, 2008 I got similar readings on the black wire when conducting this Electrosport test on my 2000. I went thru and cleaned all the fuses and connections on thru the ignition switch, but really none of them looked suspect... I couldn't get a good reading on the stator tests, I'm guessing my Fluke meter won't read that high (50 VAC, only goes to what appears to be 20 VAC or something) but now after reading your post I'm thinking of going back through those stator tests, just for grins... I figured I wasn't getting enough juice from it, but with the readings I got combined with the volt monitoring I figured it was juicing ok... I replaced my 2000 R/R with a 2001 R/R from Service Honda and couldn't believe how long the cord was on that thing!! I ended up having to tuck it in as best I could and given the length it literally runs back to my tail light, loops around the frame and then back to the R/R where it meets the other connectors. I can't imagine why I got one with such a long cord... I also picked up a new battery and so far everything seems to be within range. But, I only replaced the R/R due to all the issues everyone reports on here, I wasn't particularly certain I had an issue with it to tell you the truth. All of its readings checked out. The battery was the issue. I'm thinking it was just an older battery issue at this point. I monitor my voltage on the fly through a Datel in the dash, and all of the volt readings are in line, dead on at 14.6 with rev's... but again, it was doing that before the battery died, so I'm not real certain I fixed anything... I proally need to take a look at the stator, but also need to figure out my voltmeter a little better. Thanks for your detailed post... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 8, 2008 Author Share Posted September 8, 2008 FWIW, my '02 R/R mounts on the left side of the bike, I'm guessing the '01 is the same, maybe that's why it had more wire than the '00 has?? Man, now you have me thinking - I THINK I set the meter to read up to 200VAC when I checked the stator output, I'd feel like an idiot if I accidentally had the @%# thing at 20VAC maximum :icon_duh: :icon_think: Well regardless, the thing wasn't charging beyond 12.2V and the stator looked pretty fried, so I'm 99% certain it was the culprit... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 11, 2008 Author Share Posted September 11, 2008 Quick question - I'm putting the '01 R1 R/R on my '02 Bird - I know I have to solder the two red/white and 2 green wires together, and where those and the yellow wires go onto the R1 R/R. Also, I've seen where folks have just left the black R/R wire from the newer (injected) Bird harness un-connected when they pull the stock R/R (taped up and out of the way, of course) when installing the R1 R/R. Does this have any long-term effects, or just "slice the black wire off and forget it already"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin Posted September 11, 2008 Share Posted September 11, 2008 just heat shrink the end and forget about it... I wouldn't just cut it and leave it like that, even if just for the sake of doing it the right way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 12, 2008 Author Share Posted September 12, 2008 just heat shrink the end and forget about it... I wouldn't just cut it and leave it like that, even if just for the sake of doing it the right way. Will do, thanks! Waiting for a stator cover gasket :icon_doh: and will post pics and results when done! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bpg Posted September 19, 2008 Author Share Posted September 19, 2008 edit: new issue - fuel pump: http://www.cbr1100xx.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=56548 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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