[Where are groundings on XX located?]

I did talk to the Honda dealer (a rare find, competent, trustworthy) and they have never dealt with a knock sensor problem and were not even aware of this device in the Bird. That said; they do have an excellent library and file system for updates and service bulletins, there are no service bulletins on the Bird knock sensor or testing.

We did agree that the procedure is faulted; as soon as the weather moderates I will roll my Bird out of the garage and test it. Also plan to look at the waveforms at the sensor and ECM.

Rarely manuals do contain mistakes; the original CBX shop manual had one installing the camshafts incorrectly causing the cam timing chain to snap.

Knock sensors work on the same principle as some microphones, some vinyl record pickups and many other devices that have been around for decades (senses vibrations and puts out a voltage) no new technology or rocket science here. They have a constant low level output signal which increases when the engine knocks.

The questions are –

1. how does the ECM generate a fault Code? Does it display a fault if the normal signal is missing OR display a fault with excessive knocking – OR maybe either/both?

2. What does the ECM do to ignition timing in face of no sensor signal?

We are thinking your problem is a bad/intermittent connection between the sensor and the ECM.

Thanks very much Mike. Please let me know the results if you get around to testing it.

[Highest Mileage Bird]

Has any of you with high mileage ever had to replace the ECU?

[Where are groundings on XX located?]

Today I am going to follow the procedure on Pg. 5-54 of the shop manual on my own Bird (which runs perfectly ) and consult with the local Honda dealer, there may be a service bulletin on this test.

I believe the manual has some errors in the proceedure.

A dirty or bad connection could cause your code.

Hang in there a while, don't go spending a fortune on an ECU yet.

Hey Mike,

Just wondering if there's been any update from your conversation with the Honda dealer? Was there a service bulletin issued on this test? Thanks!

[Where are groundings on XX located?]

I have had this discussion about what the sensor does and you can do a search. It might help. And reading the manual. Lets just say it generates a signal in the sensor. The ecm has to see the signal within a range or it codes.

Yeah the 2002 does not need the repair. You know those crimp connectors that you lock on a wire to tap into it, the plug is like that inside but a bar for the wire. used to connect a bunch of the same wires together with a buss. But if the signal is degenerated across the buss enough to fail the range, it codes. I don't know if the knock sensor goes through there, doubt it does, but the connection at the ecm should be good for it read. Clean and tight.

Look at the diagram it will confirm. It is just one wire.

ok thanks. so I guess no point for me to go looking for bad grounds then? I'm clueless about electical diagrams so apologies for the inane questions.

[Where are groundings on XX located?]

Today I am going to follow the procedure on Pg. 5-54 of the shop manual on my own Bird (which runs perfectly ) and consult with the local Honda dealer, there may be a service bulletin on this test.

I believe the manual has some errors in the proceedure.

A dirty or bad connection could cause your code.

Hang in there a while, don't go spending a fortune on an ECU yet.

Thank you! Please let me know, would appreciate that very much!

Did you do the loom fix or clean the plug? If you did the removal of the plug, you might have a cold solder connection.

yes i did the loom fix (soldered them all together), but what plug are you referring to?

The plug you removed, when you soldered the wires together. NO pictures here anymore, but does this sound like what you did.

See the deal with the knock sensor is that it has to have a reading within a range, to adjust the timing. If continuity is compromised so is the range.

I have never had a problem, but bad fuel might cause it to knock too.

I would see what the resistance is in the wire from Sensor and to the EFM.

Yes, but mine is a 2002 so my plug was yellow. Frankly I don't think the plug was the problem for post 2002 birds because the contacts were all very clean inside, but I could be wrong.

I also don't think the light is showing because the engine is knocking; i think the light shows because the feedback loop is somehow not working. Either the ECM is not recieving any signals from the knock sensor when it is supposed to or perhaps like you say the signal is unexpected. I will try to check the resistance this weekend or when I can find time off work. My gut feel is that this is not a mechanical problem at all (i.e. engine knocking, bad fuel) but rather an electrical fault. I've heard that some ECMs in other vehicles perform a diagnostic test of the knock circuitry by purposely advancing timing till the engine knocks slightly and then listen for a signal from the knock sensor. If it gets none it flags a fault.

What does everyone else think?

[Where are groundings on XX located?]

Did you do the loom fix or clean the plug? If you did the removal of the plug, you might have a cold solder connection.

yes i did the loom fix (soldered them all together), but what plug are you referring to?

[Where are groundings on XX located?]

You can verify integrity of ground wires on a sensor or device by running a separate ground wire from the green terminal (on a sensor or device) to the engine, chassis or battery negative terminal.

I would suggest connecting a wire to the chassis ground on the frame cross-member to an alligator clip you have soldered on the other end.

I believe the knock sensor is grounded through it’s own case threads and has only one wire hooked to it which runs to the ECM. Maybe just loosening and reseating the knock sensor will insure a good contact. Keeping it simple I would check the wire to the computer as describe in the manual on page 5-54 (could be wrong here maybe someone else on the forum knows this for sure).

In any case: How do you know the knock sensor is good? Just asking.

Hi Mike,

Thanks very much for the tips. These are the things I've done to troubleshoot the problem:

1) Changed a brand new knock sensor from dealer, reset fault code. (no help)

2) Checked continuity between knock sensor plug and pin on harness which goes into ECM. (check)

3) Checked connection and fit of plug on knock sensor (check)

The only option left for me is a bad ECM. Do these things go bad often? Almost everyone I've spoken to who've owned a blackbird in my country has had this problem if their bikes had any amount of age. Read from another post the bird ECM goes bad after 4 years?

Another thing, my mechanic also wired up a lot of spare grounds to frame for me, however we didn't check the engine ground. Is there anyway for me to do a quick and dirty check that the engine ground is ok without removing a lot of stuff?

I can't read electrical diagrams, but will any other problem in any other part of the harness cause this fault to trigger, or is this fault solely isolated to the knock sensor circuitry (i.e. the ECM must be the only culprit left)?

[Where are groundings on XX located?]

thanks for the tips. I've been getting the dreaded 25 blink problem and it isn't the knock sensor. Mine is an 02 model. Have done the loom fix (although it might not be necessary on an '02). Problem went away for a month by itself (without me resetting the code) and now it's back. Just thought I'd check the grounds.

[Where are groundings on XX located?]

Hi folks, need some help identifying where the grounds on the bike are (I assume they're attached to the frame?) Mine is an 02 model if that matters, thanks.

[FI light ON, no fault memory, what's wrong?]

Maybe this is off topic,,,,but is there a reason you are running 95 when the bike only requires 87? It really is just wasted money unless there is something i don't understand about your country's gas.

Singapore uses ROM octane ratings, not (RON+MON)/2 as we do here in the states. RON is a higher numerical value, hence the 95. I believe the XX requires 91 octane RON gasoline.

Hotdog....check your battery grounds as has been mentioned, and also check your charging system output.

thanks for the RON octane stuff, people always ask me that and I don't know how to answer...hehe

does a bad battery ground give this fault code? i'm an electrical idiot, so if someone doesn't mind educating me, I'll be very grateful. TIA!

[FI light ON, no fault memory, what's wrong?]

It's in the rubber boot that the tail lights plug ito the wire loom. brown with two connectors.

I still have no luck finding the connector although I looked all over the trunk area, even dug up the ECM to have a look underneath.

However, I've managed to get the fault code. Strange, I followed the manual and turned ignition off, on, start bike on side stand, no FI blinks.

However, if I ride the bike till the FI light comes on, then put it to idle on side stand, the fault code comes out.

25 blinks - knock sensor or ECM faulty. Praying it's the knock sensor and not the ECM.

I've heard a lot of guys in my country having this 25 blink problem, is this a known common fault of the bird, with the knock sensor going bad? Do a lot of you guys in the UK get this problem also?

Any idea what causes the knock sensor to kaput? Is it a wear and tear piece of hardware with a known service life?

Thanks!

[FI light ON, no fault memory, what's wrong?]

ground connection on the frame.

think you need to jump the fi light connector in the trunk...by the tail light connectors,,,,brown one. to get the fi light to work...the code.

hey, thanks. i tried to find my connector in the trunk but no luck finding it. I read the shop manual and it says if the engine can start, to start it with the side stand down and in neutral and the FI light will blink if there's a fault memory, so i think the connector is for the case when the bike won't start?

i tried revving the engine past 3k rpm in neutral and it kinda cuts out, like hitting a rev limiter. was thinking could bad plugs cause this as well? or is it bad gas?

[FI light ON, no fault memory, what's wrong?]

95 octane

Where do you find this?

in Singapore..

[FI light ON, no fault memory, what's wrong?]

I'll try to list down the sequence of things that happened.

I was low on fuel, so went to the fuel pump to fill up with gas. It says 95 octane on the pump, the kind I usually pump, I've used this station many times before.

After that, was riding for about 10 - 15 mins and noticed that FI light was on, so I took it slow and kept revs below 3k rpm.

I went to complain to the gas station manager that perhaps their gas was contaminated or something, bought a bottle of STP octane booster and poured 3/4 into my fuel tank, same thing, no difference.

I went home, checked the manual, and started the bike in neutral with side stand down. The FI light did not blink (does this indicate no fault memory?)

I started riding it and the FI light doesn't come on till I hit about 3000rpms and above, then it stays on.

When I turn it off and on again, no fault memory again.

I'm thinking it's bad gas, and I'll find out soon once I finish up this tank of gas. I intend to ride it slow and try to keep it at 3k or below rpms till I can pump a fresh tank of gas and try again.

Any idea what the problem with my bike is, anyone?

[Bike cutting off when turning at slow speeds]

Everyone,

Thank you so much for your help.

There were 2 problems on my bike that caused the engine cutting off.

One of the wires behind the ignition switch was corroded (the part which was soldered onto the barrel). Mechanic fixed this

and tested the bike by turning the handlebars left and right vigourously. Engine cut off again.

Happened that there was another problem, the immobilizer wire had broken off inside it's insulation. After that was fixed, bike was ok.

Thank you all so much for coming through for me, really appreciate it.

[Bike cutting off when turning at slow speeds]

Ok thanks to all your help I think I've located the problem.

I started up the bike, it idled fine. There is this sheath of wires going into the ignition switch barrel so I gave it a light tug, and the bike immediately died.

Just to make doubly sure, I started her up again, let her idle for 3 mins, everything ok. Then I gave it a light tug again, bike died.

How hard will it be to disassemble to switch and solder the contacts back? I read through the service manual and think I can handle removing the handlebars,

but how do you remove the key barrel from the yoke?

Thanks again folks!

[Bike cutting off when turning at slow speeds]

Thanks, that's really generous of you. Unfortunately I live in Singapore.

That's not in Virginia is it?

Did the previous owner have any extra electronics wired into the bike? Perhaps something was put amiss during the install/removal process.

Hi,

No that's not in Virginia unfortunately.

Just woke up, am going to troubleshoot the bike later.

I am not aware of any electronics wired into the bike, everything was totally stock. The only thing I am aware of is that he removed the Scottoiler.

Which brings me to another thing, he told me the Scottoiler required vacuum suction to operate, and one of the Scottoiler tubes was plugged into a

vacuum port somewhere on the bike. This port was a T-junction kinda thing at the fuel tank, and he just removed the Scottoiler tube without plugging it back.

Will it cause a problem?

Another idea came up, what if it were not an electrical problem, but the fuel was getting cut off? Or spark was getting cut off? Is there a way to easily eliminate these 2 possibilities?

Going to get a bite to eat, then go troubleshoot the bike, thanks everyone.

[Bike cutting off when turning at slow speeds]

+1 on the wiring problem, check the wires going into the kill switch, ignition switch and kickstand switch.

Where are you located? If you're near me, I'd be glad to help. I ask because the was a 2001 XX for sale near me recently, probably just coincidence.

Thanks, that's really generous of you. Unfortunately I live in Singapore.

rockmeupto125,

Thanks for the suggestions, I will do what you outlined step by step tomorrow and report back.

If anyone has anymore ideas in the meantime, pls don't be shy to post it.

[Bike cutting off when turning at slow speeds]

Just got the bird today, so I'm officially a blackbird owner. Took her out for a ride and discovered a problem with the bike. It's a 2001 model.

The engine will cut off whenever I try to make a slow speed right turn. It does not matter if I'm in first gear or second gear, or if the clutch lever

is depressed or not. But it only seems to happen at slow speeds. I suspect that this may be more because of the angle of turn of the bars rather than the speed. I'll try to verify this tomorrow.

I was making a U-turn and the engine sudenly cut off, resulting in me nearly dumping the bike along with my pillion. This happened a couple of times.

As I live in an apartment and have to park the bike in a multi-storey parking space, I ended up having to push the bike up as it will cut off whenever I made a right turn.

The owner did tell me about this problem, but he said that he had fixed it. Apparently not.

Any ideas on how I might go about troubleshooting it? I think I can reliably reproduce the problem, but I'm afraid I'll kill the battery from having to restart

the engine every time it cuts off.

Thanks!

[Please tell me if this bike is ok]

rockmeupto125,

Thanks, the V&H sound awesome wrt reducing heat.

shovelstrokeed,

Thanks for the encouraging words, I'm getting the bike tonight and going to go for a long ride with the missus.

Will try the suggestion of wearing boots.

Over here in the tropics we seldom wear full riding gear when commuting because of the daytime heat and humidity.

We only do that when we go touring, for safety.

[Please tell me if this bike is ok]

It does help to wear socks and boots.

Done a search regarding the heat and here's what I found:

- coat the pipes with ceramic or other heat insulating coating to keep heat in the pipes

- insulating wraps not a good idea because it will trap moisture causing the pipes to rust

- aftermarket pipes

Most people just give up and try to live with it. Being new, naive and stupid, I'd like to find a fix....

Bike I was looking at is an 02 model, owner informed me that the cans come with cat converters,

does the converters make the pipes run hotter than usual? If yes, can I purchase a set of used stock cans

from '00 or '01 and do a direct swap, or are modifications needed?

To understand the cause of the problem, is the majority of the heat from the engine, being blown out of the inside

of the fairing to the legs (will be felt when bike is at speed), or is it from the exhaust pipes (will be felt at traffic stops)?

I even went so far as to ask the owner for a cigarette so that I could check for exhaust leaks! But there was no leak.

On the question of aftermarket pipes, what's a good brand to use to reduce the heat?

PS: It seems to be an agreement that carbed bikes are not as hot as EFI bikes, could it be that the factory mapping is very lean,

causing the enigne to run hot?

[Heat Shield]

I am looking into making a heat shield for my Bird so that the exhaust heat is deflected from the radiator while sitting. It would be factory looking and a bolt on if I get my sheet metal guy to do it.

Is anyone interested in one of these?

One of reasons is that if you wrap the headers then you take the risk if actually increasing the engine temo slightly. I would prefer deflecting.

If you are interested I will be getting pictures when he gets done.

Just post up here.

Yes, I'd be interested to see how it looks and how it works. Thanks.

[Please tell me if this bike is ok]

I am going to add to what Joe said, Seems normal to me based on your discriptions. The link brake system will not stop the bake tire from the front brake if the Bike is not moving. There has to be forward movement of the Bike for the linked system to work otherwise burnouts would not be possible and we all know that burnouts are possible and actually enjoyed by some.

Oh, didn't know that. It makes sense now that you mention it, no wonder the 2 birds I tested both exhibited this behavior.

1) When the bike is idling in neutral gear, there is this intermittent "tuck.......tuck tuck" sound...a 2-3 secs pause between "tucks" but the frequency is not constant.

Is this true, or is it something more serious?

As you describe it, this is a normal occurance.

2) When moving off in the first gear, there is this.....humming sound that....dissapears when I kick it to second

This is not unusual, especially if its an even sound that increases in pitch with road speed.

3)pumped the clutch lever and kicked it down into first. I get a loud clunk that you typically hear on sports bikes.

Is this normal?

Yes. Try holding the clutch in for 15 seconds and then dropping it into first. There should be no clunk. I'm curious why you needed to pump the clutch.

Now here's the funny part, after I kicked it into first, then put it back into neutral, when I release the clutch lever, I feel a pulse in the lever and a slight "tick" sound. And I swear I could detect a very slight drop in engine idling speed at the point I released the lever even though the bike was in neutral, then it went back to normal again.

What could cause this?

When you release the clutch, even in neutral, you connect the engine with the transmission. This is work, and it makes sense that the idle may decrease very slightly. Clutches have "feel" and you would typically get some feedback through the lever from the clutch mechanism...but the hydraulic clutch decreases that feedback.

4) Temperature during idling was 103 - 104 degrees. I live in the tropics (hot), is this temperature ok?

Yes.

5) When I took the bike for a test ride, it was terribly hot on my ankles. Wasn't wearing socks. It was really hot. When I got back the veins in my ankles were showing. Is it normal to be this hot?

Yes. With aftermarket mufflers (slip-ons or a full system), a lot of the heat goes out the tailpipe and you won't feel this so much.

If you've read this far, thank you very much. Would really appreciate any help I can get on this as I don't want to end up buying a lemon.

I put it on the mainstand, and spun the rear wheel. However when I pressed the front brake lever, the rear wheel did not stop spinning.

I thought it's supposed to, does this mean the linked braking system is damaged?

No, the linked system is fine. The rear brake portion of the linked brakes is actuated by the twist of the front left caliper while under braking. Therefore, the rear wheel brake will only be actuated by the LBS if the bike is actually moving forward when the front brake is applied.

Understand that while the XX typically exhibits all the behaviours you've described here, you cannot completely communicate the quality and character of the noises and feelings that you get from the bike. So while the XX usually has these noises and such, we can't guarantee that your experience is exactly the same as ours. There may be something wrong with this bike.....but it doesn't sound as though there is from your descriptions. Good luck.

Thank you so much for taking the time to reply in such detail and clarity! Really appreciate it!

Just out of curiosity, what causes the intermittent clunking sound that I heard while the bike was idling?

rockmeupto125, I think you understand perfectly what I meant by when I described the sound when moving off in first gear, yes it increases in pitch with vehicle

speed, any idea what causes it?

Thanks!

[Please tell me if this bike is ok]

I viewed a bike today, it's a silver 2002 Sept bird and I'm considering buying it.

However, I found some points of concern that I need some advice on as I'm unfamiliar with the bike.

I'll list them out below.

1) When the bike is idling in neutral gear, there is this intermittent "tuck.......tuck tuck" sound. It sounds like very light clunking.

It's not very loud, but you can hear it and feel it very slightly when you sit on the bike. The speed of the sound is not fast, so I don't think

it's engine related, there's like a 2-3 secs pause between "tucks" but the frequency is not constant.

I asked the owner about it and he said it was something to do with the clutch housing, but he didn't know exactly what.

He said he'd already brought it to the shop to check it out, as the bike had the sound when he first bought it 1-1/2 yrs ago, but the mechanic

told him it was normal as most Honda bikes will do this after the clutch housing gets a little wear n tear.

Is this true, or is it something more serious?

2) When moving off in the first gear, there is this sound. The best way to describe it is this. You know when you drive an older manual

car and you put it in reverse and you step on it, there is this humming sound that you do not get when you're driving in forward gears?

Sounds kinda like rubber rubbing on something.

That's exactly the sound I hear when I move off in first gear. However, the sound dissapears when I kick it to second, and I don't hear it in

any other gears other than first.

Owner said all the birds he's tried had this sound, is this normal? I don't remember hearing this sound when testing other birds but I can't be very sure.

3) I think there's something definitely funky going on with the clutch. I started the bike (it's already been warmed up as it was ridden to my place), pumped

the clutch lever a few times, and kicked it down into first. I get a loud clunk that you typically hear on sports bikes. I put it back into neutral, gave the lever

a few more pumps, and tried again, same thing, I get a clunk . I could not get it to slip into first without the clunk.

Is this normal?

Now here's the funny part, after I kicked it into first, then put it back into neutral, when I release the clutch lever, I feel a pulse in the lever and a slight "tick" sound. And I swear I could detect a very slight drop in engine idling speed at the point I released the lever even though the bike was in neutral, then it went back to normal again.

What could cause this?

4) Temperature during idling was 103 - 104 degrees. I live in the tropics (hot), is this temperature ok?

5) When I took the bike for a test ride, it was terribly hot on my ankles. Wasn't wearing socks. It was really hot. When I got back the veins in my ankles were showing. Is it normal to be this hot?

If you've read this far, thank you very much. Would really appreciate any help I can get on this as I don't want to end up buying a lemon.

Thanks in advance!

Oh, another thing.

I thought birds were supposed to have linked brakes.

I put it on the mainstand, and spun the rear wheel. However when I pressed the front brake lever, the rear wheel did not stop spinning.

I thought it's supposed to, does this mean the linked braking system is damaged?