I have been working on wrapping up the Turbo XX after installing a different motor with a thicker head gasket in it.

The bike is a 2001, the motor is from a 99XX. The motor ran fine before disassemble and install of .075 head gasket. Motor was placed back in the bike and set for the least 4-5 months. I have been hooking it all up, minus the turbo to make sure the motor was running fine before re-installing the turbo. It has a stock header and mufflers for testing purposes.

I can get the bike to idle at around 900rpm only if I hold the throttle wide open.

I have verified the plug wires. I pulled the colder turbo plugs, they were wet with fuel. I installed a set of iridiums I had and the bike didnt do any better.

I have checked and double checked all the connections I can find.

I took a bunch of pictures with hopes someone can just spot an issue or have me check something else.

One other odd thing...the temp and fuel guages stay flashing after I turn the key on. The temp guage flashes 270, the fuel guage flashes like it is empty, but it has at least a gallon in the tank. Could something be causing it not to run because it thinks the temp is too high? Does it shut down if it thinks it has overheated?

Stan and I have talked, I hope I dont have to pull the valve cover back off and check the timing...or worse find out the valves are bent.

I unplugged the temperature sensor, it fixed the flashing temp guage on the dash.

When the temp sensor was unhooked, it would not run at all.

The FI light would flash as I tried to start it though.

I'd swap ECU's just on principle. Gotta get some more definitive diagnostics, and that's easier than a compression test.

Does it "idle" really rough? Check that the cams aren't out by 180 degrees. Don't ask me how I know...

I switched ECU Joe, no change


Tim...it won't "idle" you must open the throttle at least half way to get it to run at all. Open the throttle all the way and it stays at 900-1000 rpm.

The temp guage shows 270 and is flashing

The FI light was dimly glowing all the time with the 00 ECU, and still flashing twice about every 15 seconds while it struggled to run.

Idle was your word, thus the quotes. If you've spoken to Stan, he's probably already given you better advice than I can. It sounds to me like you've got some electrical gremlins to chase down- but the (non)running issue sounds like timing to me.

I tried swapping the coils out to run the motor 180 off, it didnt run at all like that.

Does the XX have a "limp mode" when it has overheated?

The temp sensor pegs out at 270 when hooked up, when unhooked, it wouldnt start at all.

Not sure how effective that would be on an injected bike unless you could somehow switch the timing on the injectors as well.

But I've been drinking, so even if it's obvious it'd go right by me at the moment.

Best advice I can give you right now is to listen to whatever Stan tells you.

Good points...The FI probably fires just before the intake stroke..


Stan may help it get running, but it will have at least four wheels and sand tires on it before we are finished.





That is part of my problem, I havent had a drink in six weeks.

That's easily fixed..............

As far as the engine, let me think for a while.

You know the injector thing might be right, it does strike a cord. I am pretty sure your gonna have to pull the valve cover...

It(the cams) has to be out 180....and the coil thing would not work if the injectors were timed 180 off....I think..


you can do it, I have faith..



that just ain't right, well something is causing it to be wrong, and it ain't heat.
You go something hooked up wrong. Gotta be.




It ain't firing at the right time, according to the valves....or it would burn the fuel off.


working here!!!

and if it wasnt firing at the right time it would be heating up fast???

If it is really that hot, then we really have other problems. Like water....

You ain't run it that long right?



and yes if it really is that hot, it should be not running on purpose. I have had mine hot enough to puke coolant and still run, good enough to back to the trailer. Never that hot.
I was thinking that it was saying hot when it was cold really.

It can't overheat that fast. If you have an air bubble trapped near the sensor, it may show an overheat, but the engine itself isn't overheated.

The engine will run with the injectors out of time. Hell, it will run if you spray gas in the air intake....how sensitive would it be to injector timing...especially at lower rpm.

Compression test and check cams.

Who is looking for a weekend in Indiana?

I ain't doing anything,,,, was thinking about this instead of sleeping and I think you need to change out the temp sensor first. This is a different motor than the one that was in it. Pull the sensors out of the motor that lost the ring one by one starting with the temp sensor, because it looks to be the first indicator. I can't believe it would stop it from starting but you say it does, so that first. Next we are going to have to check the cam timing, all there is to it. We don't know anything about this motor? Didn't you get this somewhere else and have no history of it running? Or is this from the quad frame? I still think you got something connected to the wrong place. Temp for sure. Unplug everything. And start over with what you can tell has to go together, one by one.

Call when you can.

I haven't looked, but is it possible you have the connectors swapped?

I kinda wonder if maybe either of those two sensors corroded while sitting around waiting to be reassembled, but especially the water temp sensor. It's supposed to read some kind of resistance, but if it is shorted, it might freak out the ECU, since it refused to start at all when the circuit was open (unplugged).

When I talked to Stan this morning, he also mentioned that checking the big wire-harness connectors attached to the frame for corrosion might not be a bad idea, either.

I did loosen them to add the PC3 ground in there.

It is tightened up now but may have caused a problem.


I will clean that tonight, swap out the temp sensors and report later tonight.

The manual says you can damage the temp sensor when testing it...??

In the mean time, I am at work and meeting with the union president about grievances.





This motor came out of the quad frame. It does nice burnouts....ran fine before.

A good starting point is to assume only one thing is wrong. It is of course possible that there are many faults. bit typically in this sort of case you just goofed up one thing. Since the gauges are showing problems when it first turns on, I have to believe that the ECU operation is at the root of your problem, not cams or valves. A single bad sensor should set you into limphome mode, your bike is much below that level. The air temp sensor would not cause the symptoms described.

The best starting point is checking that you have good power and ground to the ECU harness. Did you reconnect the two green wires under the tank lip? After verifying that connection, I would use a test light, NOT a DVM, to verify that power AND ground are good at the ECU. A DVM can show voltage even when there is a poor connection, a light bulb will confirm the connection is sound enough to conduct the necessary current.

Whee!

Last meeting was called off, going to the garage in a few minutes.

Updates later.

My eyes are getting bad, and I can't read the schemetics without a magnifying glass. But I have two sets of prints in my service manual. One for before 99, one for after.
You say the engine ran good ( in the quad?). Did the quad have a 99 harness? Didn't the 99 have analog speedo and temp gauge?
Which harness did you wire the bike with? Just one wire difference from the 99 and 01 could cause strange feedback.

Just a thought, I would photocopy both schemetics, ENLARGED in my case and look for differences.

I am kinda going that way too, in that the ecm is different between the years and the break is in the 01 02 area, I know the 02 is different than the 2000 for sure, and that might be the problem. But, I have a complete 2002 wiring harness and ecm on a 2000 motor and sensors. The temp sensor was changed when I put the digital gauges on. But, that was all. So that might be it.

Swapped the temp sensor and now the gauge is working.

It is a 99 motor, a 2001 harness. Digital dash.

at half to full throttle the bike will do 1000-1100 rpm.



at 1k rpm, the speedo on the digital dash is ready 7mph.

Speed sensor? another clue?

just got off the phone,,,no chain, so speed is ok,,it's turning the sprokett..

But, the cams look to be as the book says to be. So, I got him confirming #1 compression timing mark and take pictures. I know when I got it wrong, I had #1 and #4 mixed up. Thought the lobes were the ones next to the chain. Because of the picture looks like that. But, the #1 is on the oposite end of the cams. That is what gets most people. Good thing that the valves are ok with that and the pistons too.


But, I can't for the life of me figure what it is that sets #1 different than #4 in the computer. It can't be the pulser wheel cause they are the same for both. So is the crank sensor.

I know I am tired, cause that can't be right.

Oh well, Josh is gonna shoot some pictures and post them.

Let the people that are more awake than I am help me to think...Cause I am so missing something..an I know it. The relationship between the two wheels has got to be the problem and the solution.

Because they are the way the book shows. But, it is wrong, and changing it will fix it, I do know that. The crank has got to have a way to know it ain't right above. but, it can't.

Derrrrrr, dumb shit..brain fart...

Pics look like the book...it has to be wrong!

nice touch slipping in the shocker in the last photo

with the cams not being 180 out (I too somehow know about this) it seems like a wiring harness issue with the different years but that's guess. Good luck, hope you get it soon.

Ive been a tech for quite a few years with hondas as my specialty and judging by the photos, especially the last one you posted I noticed two things. One your missing a finger and two where did you mount the flux capacitor? I really think you should call Scotty and see if he has any extra dilithium crystals urs might be a little worn. In all seriousness I have no clue I just wanted to be heard....lol good luck!

If I threw in the other finger I would be saying "Na-Nu Na-Nu" and shake your hand.


Thanks for the support tonight Stan, I didnt like opening up the motor but I'm at "that point" now.

The correct way to do this is take the cams out. Turn the crank till #1 comes up on compression, and put the cams in like the picture shows.

What is wrong is the cams were put in when it was not on compression.


So turning the cams 180 will get it right!


but my head says different. It would be compression at tdc without the cams both places...I know go get some sleep..


Nite...

Josh, I don't see a pic of the starting point...the TDC mark on the rotor lining up with the mark on the cover...If that's correct, the location of the cam lobes on #1 cylinder says the cams are in right, or close to right...I can't verify the intake because of the frame in the way...
Not sure what you guys are talking about being 180 degrees out...the crankshaft rotates 2 times for every rotation of the cam set, so if you viewed the sprocket marks at 1 point and they were 180 out, 1 revolution of the crank would bring the marks to where they could be read...
Interesting problem...wish I had some more insight for ya, but I'm only somewhat familiar with the carbed bikes...Hank

Since we have changed the coils,( right coil firing, 2/3, left 1/4,) which is backwards, once, and it did not help, but got worse, no idle even at full throttle. And that is correct on the cams. If Josh confirms timing mark picture, then must be the cam position sensor, like you say.

I had told Josh to pull the cams and confirm compression stroke but, if the timing mark is correct, and the cams out, what else could it be?

More coffee, thats what....

Long distance, no beer drinking, engine diagonsisting, sucks!

I switched the coils and it wouldnt run at all, but it did scare the shit out of a 12 year old with a nice backfire.

I swapped out the cam sensor and temp sensors last night...no change.

I talked to Tim (redbird) in Key West this morning. I plan on turning the cams 180 tonight unless someone comes up with a reason why I shouldnt. Tim suggested taking the cams out, rotating the crank 360 and installing the cams like they are now. Should be the same as flipping them right?

I can swap out the ignition pickup before doing the cams if you think it could be worth doing.


Thanks for the help guys.

I would, just to eliminate the ign pickup before doing the cams. Two reasons, It is all that is left that might be it, and you doing the cams by your self the first time. Sorry,,

Dean, forgive me...are you saying you installed the cams once with 2 and 3 at TDC?

Clarify that for me, will ya?

No, if you look at the diagram in the manual, it looks like the lobes shown are on the cam sprocket end of the cam, not the other end. He, and I mistook #4 for #1 when we installed them wrong. Anyway, that is what gets done to get it wrong. If #4 valves are closed with the intake and exhaust indicators pointing out and in line with the head surface, it will run like Josh's.

And no I ain't "Dean, but I got some sleep last night...

And if you did have 2 and 3 tdc it would bend all the valves to put the cams like it is shown in the book.

No, he installed them as outlined in the manual but with #1 at TDC on the exhaust stroke rather than the compression stroke. I made the exact same mistake, and my results were much like Josh is describing here. I removed the cams, turned her once, reinstalled, everything was peachy.

I`m just throwing in my observations here.

The only thing that determines when an engine is on compression or exhaust,....is the cams. If you take the cams out and turn the engine 360 degrees,........wouldn`t you end up exactly in the same place?? If #1 is at TDC, then 360 degrees later #1 is again at TDC.

Is it possible to mix up the intake and exhaust cams?? I don`t know.

There's a crankshaft sensor and the computer counts. The cams are 180 off from where the computer thinks it is, so the fuel is being injected at the wrong time and the plugs are being sparked at the wrong time.

The cams make it the exhaust or compression stroke, not the crank.
Maybe it's a matter of semantics...

When ya get her straightened out, I'd really appreciate a clarification...
Hank






Ahhh...starting to see the light, Skull...
Why do people fuck with FI anyhow...LOL

Because it's so much better than carburetors.

In the book, it says to take it apart at 1 compression tdc, and put it back together that way and I am convinced, it remembers where it was.....All the sensors are even numbered wheels too. so it has to. If you took it apart at #1 exhaust, you would have to put it back that way.

Been all day trying to prove otherwise...

I'm not so sure...

I've been trying to figure out how something mechanical can be 180 degrees off, when it's that way by design every other revolution...

If the problem turns out to be FI related, I understand...
It's because it's better...LOL

Pulled the cams, rotated the crank 360, installed the cams, torqued everything down, hooked everything back up.






















Still wont run unless throttle is held open, doesnt have to be wide open, but stays right at 1000rpm +_200rpm.

I think it sounded healthier at idle and didnt need to be held as wide open...I also think I heard some backfiring through the airbox.

Should I swap ECM again? Switch the #1 and #4 plug wire again? Melt the motor down and make aluminum foil?

Pics...



I should go buy some plugs, these are probably fouled out now.

I will swap out the crank sensor tomorrow.

The FI light went out after I replaced the MAP sensor. It was throwing out a code 2.

Could you post pics of the crank trigger? Just like to see where it`s at.

How in the hell if the crank and cams are in correct position "cams are 180 off".My brain hurts trying to understand that.

Cam pulse generator is there so ECU knows when to fire injectors,as long as trigger wheel is installed correctly on EX cam sprocket who cares whether you spin crank 360,720,etc.

They are either installed correctly or not .Period.

good, cause that means that the engine dont know any difference between #1 top dead center and #4 topdeadcenter. Cause there ain't.

The cams are the only way the ecm can tell. And if the cams are right, the rest is.

Some things Josh said needs to be cleared up. Swapping 1 and 4 plug wires will not change anything. What he was told to do was swap the right coil to the left. Just because we were changing the firing. the right coil is 1 and 4. putting the left coil in the right location and ign wiring would have the 2 and 3 plugs being fired without changing the plug wires to do it. easier way to fix the cams off 180 on installation.

Very difficult to describe. Clearly.

I just hope he put them back....now.

Ok, now pulling the cams and turning the crank 360 and putting the cams back in the same way does not change anything. Glad we got that out of the way.

There is nothing to tell the ecm anything has changed at the crank.

If you bring the piston up on compression stroke #1 to the tdc mark and install the cams with the #1 valves closed and the marks inline with the head and the int and ex pointing out on the cam sprocketts, it is right. period!!!!! It does not mater which turn of the crank it is!!!!! First or second.


The problem is when you do #4 compression, period. This is easy to do because they are doing the same thing and the diagram looks like your looking at the lobes next to the sprokett on the cam. But, that is the #4 hole. #1 is on the other end. This has the cams 180 off. And the cam sprockett pulser wheel is not like the drawing when you do it this way. But, that is the only way to see the problem.

Josh has something else wrong. He had a FI light. Was the wire to the map sensor because of a connector that EFR put in to fool it because of the turbo. He fixed the broke wire and it went away. No other codes.

I have him to change the ign pulsar, tomorrow. By my count, that is all that is left from the 99 motor. Electric wise. Maybe there is something in there. Dropped a bolt,,,,, or something is in between it and the sensor fouling the reading making it fire wrong. If he turned the crank the wrong way,,,counterclockwise,,,,and the bolt backed out and the wheel changed location....something.