For all you power hungry NA guys.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAP...item=2445170968

I placed a bid! :grin:


And I intend on winning it, unless the price gets out of range!

Cool, I hope you win it! That way you can put it in and try it
out and give us a review :grin:

:cool: TJ :cool:

You might want to get someone mechanically inclined to install that for you

:wink:

I payed a little over $600.00 for the JE 9:1 compression 1/2 millimeter over bore pistons in my bike.

You got a bargain Chris, might have a busa killer come Spring. :cool:

We'll see................ :wink:

Chris, I'm sure glad you got it!! I've been watching it, hoping you would
win the bid. When ya gonna install it?

Cal

Over the winter.

I already contacted a reputable engine builder in the area, and will be doing baseline dyno runs within the next few weeks, prior to teardown.

I'll start a thread in the Garage when it's time.

Looking forward to it!

Later, Cal

I'm looking forward to it as well.
Before and after dyno runs will be interesting.
Are you planning on having the head ported, adding different cams or any other mods while you have her apart?

I'll have the bike on the dyno within the next couple of weeks, and figure out what we need to do to make the gains we're looking for.

Before/after dyno runs will definitely be posted, and I'm calling this a "project", so we're excercising all options on power gains. If you've got any ideas, let me know. :wink:

COOL!

It all really depends on how much you want to spend.
From what I gathered on the "other" site you won't need rods or clutch basket if you are under 200 HP. But, if you have it apart anyway.....
If you are getting the head ported and polished I have heard good things about carpenterracing.com.

Carillo rods (mostly insurance) = $1000.00
Falicon super crank (lightened balanced and polished) = $700.00
Falicon Billet clutch basket (insurance) = $395.00

Congrads on winning the ebay auction.

I looked at it but didn't want to do that much work.

According to J&E Pistons site (they have you download a pdf) the kit you bought requires "boring and plating."

However, the ebay auction seller's comments said that the kit only required "honing." :oops:

If you are upset about that you could legally decline purchasing the kit, as the seller's mis-statement would constitute a material misrepresentation of a substantial fact that you could of reasonably relied on to your detriment -- which is legal babble for saying you thought you were buying something simpler and less expense to install than was advertized. :shock:

Okay, good luck and I hope the kit works out for you.
:grin:

The Blackbird has steel sleeves. No plating required, but it will have to be bored.

What's the difference between boring and honing? And when would plating be required and why?

Boring: removing lots of material in the cylinder wall- like 2mm for increased displacement.

Honing: scuffing the surface of the cylinder wall for ring break-in, very little material is removed.

Plating the cylinder walls with nicasil (sp.?) is for aluminum linerless cylinders. If the cylinders weren't lined with the hard plating, they would wear out VERY fast. Steel liners do not require plating because the steel is hard enough to resist wear. Some bikes have aluminum cylinders to reduce weight like the current batch of supersport 600's and the light liter bikes.

Class dismissed, go ride.

It makes sense that you should not have to plate.

However, the J&E Piston website does specify "plating."

You might want to email them and ask if the plating is an error; or what they had in mind, since the XX has steel sleeves.

It's best to find out from the source. You don't have to guess just email them. I hope you don't have to plate 'cause that would make it easier for anyone considering this upgrade.

However, even steel sleeves that are thin or worn could benefit from plating; it's all just what works according to how J&E Pistons designed the kit and how thick and durable are the XX cylinder walls to begin with.

Also, the compression will go up from stock of 1:11 to 1:11.5 -- so you might want to be sure the engine is tight, anyway.

It's a typo you don't need plating on steel sleeves.

The bores are cast iron.

You either need soft rings, or a soft bore, or major problems can occur. Most bores are cast iron, with either a moly or chrome surface on the rings. Nikasil treated bores will use a softer ring (ductile iron), which is uncoated.

Reason one has to be softer than the other is so they will wear in together. If you had soft rings + soft bore = rapid wear & compression loss.

Hard rings + hard bore = lots of heat, rings that won't break in, and possibility of rings welding themselves to the bores from friction.

Piston material doesn't dictate bore surface or material, ring material does, and visa versa.

I haven't seen aluminum bores used for anything but lawn mowers, and even those are the really cheap, disposable ones. All the good ones are cast iron lined.

According to Dave, my mechanic, In Daly City -- the Blackbirds that he's worked on have aluminum engines with nickel-silver plating.

It should be easy enough to check the technical specs on this; it may be that earlier models were steel sleeves.

But if this is true, Dave says -- bore and replating will run you $1,000. Add to this $600 for the kit and 8 hours of mechanic time. You're then talking about a $2,000 upgrade.


On the other hand, J&E Pistons may have sold an earlier kit that has been superceded by the current kit that requires plating. If so, then the earlier kit may just have rings which are slightly larger than stock thus allowing a larger piston put not requiring boring. Anyway, I hate to speculate, the best thing is to just find out. If I can find the specific engine design spec, I'll post it for you. But it may take some digging.

Here is all I could find on what the cylinder walls of the XX are made of. I could not find any definitive answer -- I did a wide search on Yahoo.com and looked at dozens of spec sheets and mod sites. Here's the few details I could find out about the engine itself and its design. But the weight of the evidence suggests the XX engine was designed after the F4 and 900RR and therefore would be aluminum with hard plating.

Any one know different??? Here are the specs I did find (bold highlight for emphasis):

*****************************************
The CBR1100XX's all-new, lightweight 1,137cc engine features the same crankcase and cylinder block style used in both the CBR600 and CBR900.

Lightweight 1137cc liquid-cooled four-cylinder engine with one-piece upper crankcase and cylinder block.

Engine clock and upper crankcase based on the Fireblade engine, but with a slightly reduced included valve angle of 30 degrees as against 32 for the CBR900RR.

The engine is angled forward to push the centre of gravity downwards which improves the balance of the bike. To reduce overall bulk, the cylinder block was designed with the minimum of excess material, to keep it as light as possible. Even the valve angles were steepened to keep the combustion chamber utterly compact !!! In the interest of narrowness, the twin camshafts are driven from one end of the crank, and the other driving an ultra-compact generator.

Open-deck casting technology is used in the cylinder area to maintain an ultra-narrow cylinder sleeve spacing and bore pitch.

Much of the new engine's design work concentrated on minimizing friction and inertial mass.

Compact size and light weight were major requirements, and in spite of displacing nearly 140cc more than the CBR1000F and featuring an all-new dual-shaft balancer configuration, the new engine weighs fully 22 lbs less than the 998cc powerplant. Its small size permits it to be positioned in the ideal location in the frame for optimal mass centralization, contributing to the XX's ultra-light handling.

*****************************************

Hmn, looks like cast iron would not be the material used for the cylinder sleeves, but I could be wrong. Even if steel or iron is used look at the 5th entry: "... ultra narrow cylinder sleeve spacing and bore pitch..."

That does not sound good for boring out the sleeve. Pitch of the bore, I believe, means the thickness of the cylinder sleeve, which is here indicated to be ULTRA NARROW.

So, be careful if you bore this engine no matter what it's made of or how it's plated or not plated.

Ok look here is the definitive answer.
They are not plated.
I had my 2003 bored out when the piston melted.
It's not plated.
I had this same discussion with the guy from Gatlin racing. He swore up and down that they were plated. NOT!
I had the head mechanic at the local shop call the Honda tech line and they said cast in/ non-removable sleeve not plated.

That's the key phrase here. If they were plated, then they would refer to them as "cylinder bores". Sleeve implies that they are separate from the original casting, and installed later.

I have never seen an engine designed for any kind of production automotive purpose use aluminum cylinder walls, and I'll stand on that, until someone can prove me wrong.

BTW, your mechanic, Dave, smokes crack.

Hey, I think we are both right on this matter, but we are just coming at it from different directions.

Haynes repair manual lists the crank cases and engine block as being made of ALLOY ALUMINUM!!! :shock:

Haynes also lists bore sleeves which are non-removable.

Haynes also goes into great detail and instruction on how to hone and/or bore the cylinder sleeves. There is no mention of plating, or the need to replate. So Haynes is on your side in this regard.

But HONING is supposed to remove no measurable amount of material; and BORING because of wharping or out-of-round conditions should be no more than 0.5 mm.

Given these facts several issues arise. First, of course you are right when you say that no automotive engine relies on aluminum cylinders. But different types of platings and sleeves inside the aluminum block is what I believe all the fuss or confusion is about. GSXRs and Ninjas use a variety of high tech platings on sleeve, and these sleeves go inside aluminum blocks. The sleeve materials are plated with electrostatic this and that including ceramics!!!

What Dave was talking about (I checked with him today) was an aluminum block with nick-a-silv(?) coating over the sleeves. (I'm not certain how to spell nick-a-silv, but it is made of nickel, silver and other metals). And if that is not the case, it appears that other mechanics have made the same false assumption that the XX was plated.

So I will take the blame for assuming that the raw alloy is sometimes plated. That was my misunderstanding or false assumption. On my side though is this: the Haynes manual does not state what the sleeves are made of. It is glaring that Haynes leaves this out. Haynes only calls the sleeves "material" that is honed and bored. This omission in itself sounds suspect, as if Honda uses a propiertary material in its sleeve. Further, the sleeves could be made from a hardened form of Al alloy -- such as forged and anodized which is 80% stronger than billet. But lets assume that the sleeves are steel. Iron cast sleeves would seem to produce too much friction. Remember that cast iron rotors are used on race bikes just because the iron produces so much friction.

In any event, there is still cause for concern no matter what the sleeve material is or whether it is plated or not. Why?

The Haynes manual (1997 to 2002) in chapter 2, page 48 states that if the bore is out of service limits for wear, taper or out-of-round they can be over bored to +0.50 mm. The service limits are 0.10 mm.

However, the J&E Piston kit requires a 2.0 mm over bore; and at the section of the cylinder wall that joins any two cylinders -- you will have a 4.0 mm reduction in sleeve matter. This weakening throws up a red flag and raises cause for concern. At least it should be an issue that needs checked out -- for anyone engaging in the boring of an "ultra narrow" and light weight engine design.

Think of any two side by side cylinders as a figure eight (8). The place where the two circles join is the place that is reduced by 4.0 mm. Further, the firing sequence is 1,2,3,4 left to right. This is important here because it means that for adjoining cylinders there is a shearing force going on. That is, when one piston is going down the other is going up. The analogy is like sharpening knives the old fashioned way where you slide one edge against the other. Lots of shearing force, sharpening force occurs. The design of the cylinder walls are also what can be called semi-floating. That is, the walls are mostly surrounded by coolant and without the buttress effect of fins or supporting sections (for the most part). This means that a weakening of adjoining walls can be the site of future material failures. This is especially suspect when the kit increases compression and rpms which further stresses the adjoining walls and increases the shearing forces of the side by side pistons moving in opposition to each other against the weakened wall.

Give the above, and the ultra compact design specs of the engine... It would seem only prudent to run this boring kit by Honda's technical phone advisors at least. And perhaps to inquire whether J&E Piston disclaims any warranty.

My guess is that Honda will tell you (CYA) that the big bore kit voids its warranty. I further bet that the J&E Piston Company's literature for the kit states that the kit is for competition use only and the buyer uses it at his/her own risk, or something to that effect.

Now I could be wrong, but there's enough signs here to keep your eyes open and do some homework before launching into this project.

So just how much over-engineering has Honda done on the XX engine to make it "big-bore-able???"

With the engine's design specs to be ultra light weight, compact, narrow and to cut out all excessive weight and material... And with the adjoining cylinder walls being weakened by 8Xs the amount of a remedial over-bore... (0.5 mm compared to 4.0 mm) well, I'm just saying here to look before you leap, if you know what I mean? :roll: :lol:

http://www.vandmracing.com/projects.asp?PAGEID=4


Read that article, and let me know if you're still worried about the structural integrity of an overbored engine.

Honda commissioned V&M to build 50 such bikes, that came with a Honda warranty.

Keep in mind the CBR954 was derived from the original CBR900, which is essentially the same block, but each new model getting a larger and larger bore. Engineers recognize future needs may require larger displacement, so when designing a new engine, a small amount of extra room may be left just for that purpose.

Sure, the engine may be 5-10 mm wider than is absolutely necessary, but it would save re-designing a complete set of crankcases just to accomodate a minor cc increase in a future model.

But check out this site for big bore kits and notice that the better kits have new high tech bore barrels included to avoid reducing engine strength.

http://www.tts-performance.com/bigborepage...46a701cc2c06103

Think about that and that the J&E Piston kit lacks these bore barrels, and ask yourself, are you sure that the V&M and other 1200 models used the J&E Piston kits, or did they use kits with new bore barrels or did they plate the sleeves for added strength and/or to reduce friction???

Can you answer these questions for certain? If not, you don't have to guess. Instead, try contacting the 1200 model builders if you haven't done so. Thereby you will be getting a hedge on what problems might crop up and how to avoid them ahead of time. You might also find that 1137cc was the most Honda engineers thought they could bore out the basic engine block they were starting with, or not. All I'm saying is that we don't know for sure, at least from what I was able to dig up, whether there are problems to watch out for.

One clue though suggests that there will be -- it is that the over bore kit itself only takes the engine up by 60 cc, which is only 15 cc per cylinder. The caution used to minimize the over bore to only 15 cc (by 2 mm widening of the piston, no stroke was added) is, ahem, worrisome. It is some indication that the designers were dealing with a minimum allowance of over engineering. I could be way off base; but what if V&M used stronger bore barrel inserts, or some other accommodation to avoid weakening the cylinder walls? And why not just find out one way or the other first. It could save you a lot of head aches in the long run.
:wink:

duplicate

At this website -- you will find a list of what it really takes to re-bore an XX and get a real job done.

Notice the RE-SLEEVING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

So, man, how is my 2 cents being way past my expertise when I'm just asking the right questions. Here's proof -- you imba-silly person. Okay, go ahead and do your own rebore with a $400 kit, and blow your bike up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Just remember this: I WON THIS BATTLE AND HERE'S PROOF!!!!

A list of the real beans...

Okay, go ahead and cry now, booh, hooh! :cry: :cry: :cry:
________________________________________________

http://www.bigccracing.com/welcome.asp?page=46


Kent Race Cams
Ported and Gas Flowed Cylinder Head
Slotted Sprockets
Heavy Duty Valve Springs
1200cc Pistons
Rebore
Titanium Retainers
1mm Oversized Valves
3 Angle Valve Seats
998 Wiseco Pistons
Re-sleeved Upper Case
Rebore
Genuine Honda Parts and Fluids
Labour
Total ride in / ride out cost
£2,750+VAT


Stage 4 Motor Tune:

Kent Race Cams
Ported and Gas Flowed Cylinder Head
Slotted Sprockets
Heavy Duty Valve Springs
Titanium Retainers
1200cc Pistons
Rebore
1mm Oversized Valves
3 Angle Valve Seats
Re-sleeved Upper Case
Falicon Con Rods
Falicon Billet Crank
Genuine Honda Parts and Fluids
Labour


Total ride in / ride out cost £4,995+VAT

Sorry but just because they post something on the net doesn't make them an expert.
Have you ever had an XX motor apart?
Refering back to your post about Haynes the bird has cast in sleeves. If you want to talk about reducing structural integrity look at an XX engine block and think about boring the original sleeve out and continuing to remove metal so as to be able to resleeve. Ain't gonna work there won't be enough aluminium left between the cylinder and coolent passage.

I've said my peace, and I'm done with this thread.

Thanks for the help, XX4Me, and Rockme. I guess we lost the battle, and we all don't know what we're talking about................. :roll:

You know there's nothing wrong with modding your heart out and taking the risk yourself.

However, you guys just don't get it when it comes to safety and the whole world potentially reading these things.

So here goes!

Dear Rockmeup,

Man, that peg lowering stuff was just way too dangerous. You got some balls to post that. For if 400 read it and 40 try it then 4 -- will crash their bikes on it, and one most probably has suffered very serious injuries. You know why? All sorts of out of whack things happen with those NON-ENGINEERED PEGS: boots catch, kickstands get caught, brake pedal gets toe slipped and foot caught under brake pedal -- because pedal now too far away... Man, it's a hazard for the unwarry, amateur do-it-yourselfer. And for the guy who's in the hospital, well... You'd never get it reported back to you because, he's now eating his breakfast through a straw and doesn't know his own name.

Don't you get it, buddy, that you are messing with a F**king system?????
When you change one part of an integrated whole the rest goes out of balance and the potential for disaster is just as sure as Murphy's law, to wit, if something CAN go wrong it WILL go wrong.

And so too is the danger of the head work contemplated by this thread because you are ignoring the rest of the engine system. You just can't go around working on one piece and unbalancing the rest -- without risking disaster. That's why the professional engine upgraders at the above site went to great lengths to re-balance the engine. They upgraded the clutch springs and the valve springs and strengthened the cylinder sleeves just to name a few.

Lastly, the XX's engine was state of the art in 1997, being the first to be virtually vibe free using a twin counterbalancer and centralizing mass by eliminating all extraneous weight that was safe to eliminate. Now some hacker comes along and says stick in a few stronger parts to get more power but ignore the total design of the whole balanced system. At the very least -- you will be reducing the useful life of the a 100,000 mile engine to 20,000 miles and at the worst you will cause an internal failure which depending on when it happens could cost you and others who follow you -- BIG TIME.

Now, I hadn't planned on getting preachy here. I had planned to only add one comment to this thread, but you guys just didn't see what absolute fools you are as viewed by the engineering world, and that blindness is potenially ultra-hazardous to be sure.

So, I felt and still feel compelled to give you this warning here. Which in summary is this: when dealing with super technical complex systems stick to tried and true mods or just comfort/cosmetic ones, especially when that system (here read engine) if toyed with wrongly can bury you. I know I sound like your father, but someone has to browbeat some sense into your reckless heads! :sad:

Don'nt forget to post your 1/4 mile time and MPH :grin: and can guess your MPH based on your project, but what the hell do I know :wink:

You are gonna be fine with 2mm overbore,it is not gonna to blow up or anything like that.Stock motor makes reliable 220 hp with turbo,it is overengineered,60 ccm of extra displacement is not going to kill it.
XX uses ceramic liners and I understand there is a room for 2mm overbore .No need for new liners or replating.
Also J.E. or Wiseco are a forget pistons,stockers are cast,less quality pieces I think, so durability is not compromised in this area.
With big bore valves are effectivelly moved 1 mm from cylinder bores and that improves filling,further enhancing power gains.
I would jump compression to 12.2-12.5 and set squish to 0.8 mil.
Don`t use that awful Cometic gasket.
Factories know that does not matter how much displacement somebody,somewhere is going to put big bore on the bike,so they leave an extra room between bores.Or they can do it on their own and charge us more for "totally" new model.
Factory engineers are not all knowing Gods,that is why there are flying pistons in R&D dyno rooms.Try and error is a part of development.

Well answered, Joe. :worship:


I don't remember ever stating I was going to "jam in 2mm oversize pistons, and see what happens", so correct me if I'm wrong.

I'm building a 1195cc version of my 2000 CBR1100XX, with some other internal engine mods to make the "system" work as a whole.


I'll leave out the small details, as I'd like to keep some of this to myself. The results will speak for themselves, too.

I've built literally hundreds of engines. Probably half of them were modified in some way, with quite a few modified to a large extent.

I've seen failures, but only once did an engine not make it into the vehicle before it had to be "rebuilt". This engine had the wrong spark plugs installed (by the owner), then was subjected to a rookie operating the dyno who felt he should try and stall the engine (at a given rpm) to properly measure it's output.

He melted 3 pistons in the process, and the electrodes off of 5 plugs.

This engine will last, and if you follow along, before jumping to conclusions, you'll see the results for yourself.

Now, Harry, will you finally fuck off forever? Why do you bother coming back here? You contribute nothing, and yet seem to show up over and over again saying the same stupid things. Learn to shut your trap, go back to the ZZR guys (who realize you're an idiot, too), and don't come back.

BTW, how the hell would you know what my mph would be with the mods I've given, unless you already know my power output? You don't even know what is planned here, moron. :roll: [/b]

Thanks for the Intelligent response :grin: Just asked a question, but I forgot who I was talking to :roll:

PS: notice I never called you a name or Insulted you :wink: and I am the one thats a moron :roll:

That's the only question I could find in your post, Harry, and we all know the answer- not much.

Why do you feel such a strong need to come here and stir the shit every couple weeks? Do you enjoy the abuse? You've alienated (look it up, genius) this entire board at one point or another, and then wonder why we don't gather 'round for a group hug every time you show up slinging more shit.

Take your know it all bullshit outdated opinions back the the ZZR board, they seem to tolerate you, in a retarded little brother kinda way.

Once again thanks for the entertainment :lol: you guys are loosing more menbers than you realize :wink:

One would be enough.


PS- it's losing, and I think you meant members- moron.

I only wish someday I can be as Intelligent and good speller just like you redbird :lol: , whats your secret :lol:

I dunno, passing fourth grade maybe? I'm not going to bother continuing to correct all your spelling and grammatical mistakes, just rest assured you're making them, and looking like an ass in the process.

Why don't you just go away, instead of hanging out here getting abused?

Who said anything about be abused :lol: , I am playing you like a fine tuned piano :lol: :lol: , now who's the moron :twisted:


PS: I am done with you

Now where have we heard that before................ :roll:


Promises, promises. :sad:

Shit, you kill me, man. What color is the sky in your world? You couldn't manipulate a six week old puppy with a shock collar, an instruction manual and ten pounds of hamburger, but I'm sure you really believe you've got the best of me. Get over yourself and get on with your life. Go away like you keep promising to.

Consider it a favor to me, I can no longer take the mind games you keep playing on me, pretending to be a complete idiot whilst playing me like a fine tuned piano the entire time. The inability to spell or punctuate was a fine touch.

Nicely played, sir, I bow to your superior intellect :wink:


Now will you go away?

I have no idea where (or what) you pulled that out of, but I'm applauding you. Generously. :wink:

Thank you, Tim. :worship:

Both the Pub, and now the Garage, have been a genuinely fine read as of late. :razz:

Keep up the good work! :wink:

G2

That really had me laughing my ass off. So much so I shared it with all my coworkers. :lol: :lol:

Something about Harry brings out the best (worst?) in me. At a certain point I almost feel guilty, it really is too easy to abuse him- then he starts typing again and I can't help myself. Looks like this episide is over, regardless.

Stay tuned for the next installment :razz:

Tim,
your creativity and eloquence during this entertaining repartee are most appreciated!! :cheers: Especially that bit about training the puppy... :lol: