Brent sent me his motor to find out what went wrong. He had some problems that would not get better. Last was that it was not turning over. It had been down on power and looked like the compression was low. It is a turbo bird and is way custom.


Shipped to me and I picked it up tonight. Had some visible changes to the wrap that was on it and some visible damage. Oil filter was visible and scuffed and the shrink wrap was tore in places. One was the stator cover and looked like it might be damaged, but, was just the chrome peeling.









Weighed the motor just to see what the weight was really. 175 max clean of fluids.
Pulled the valve cover and the cams and measured the shims to record the location size. Some looked bad and one would not come out with a magnet. Going to have to replace many of them.




Broke the head bolts and pulled the head. The head bolts were very tight. Not sure what the torque was but I had a really hard time breaking them. So not loose for sure.












As soon as I got the head off it was easy to see the problem. #1 cylinder had water in it and the head gasket had burn marks between each of the cylinders. The top layer of the head gasket had separated from the middle layer. Looks like it had a little to much boost for it to survive. Looks like a stock one, but don't know.





If the problem with it not turning over is the rust in the cylinder galling the piston, I will not know till I get the bottom end apart. And without turning the crank, going to be very hard to get the crank out. Going to soak the cylinder in penetrating oil over night.

Was thinking the bearing was the problem, while hoping that it was not. Cranks and rods are expensive. So if I can get the piston to let go and it turns, we are going to be a lot better off.

Since Brent wanted me to post a picture book discription thread of the rebuild on here, I am going to. I will post some pictures here but the link is in my photo-bucket for all of them.

Should be a good reference for those who would like to or just want to know how it is done.



Photobucket folder for all the pictures.......click here

Very good of you Stan. It looks like there is a fair amount of oil in the #3 cylinder also. Blown rings? Leaking valve seal?

Yes, looks like is/was real wet. But, I won't know till I get it the rest of the way down and look at the rings, but don't think the head/seals are bad. Will be able to tell when I pull the valves out.Guessing, for sure, about all of it till I see what I find.

Going to put a link to the correct PB location in my #1 post so you all can go and see alll the pic's if you want. He will have a folder for all the work.

What you have there is chrome plated scrap metal.

For about $5000 you could turn it into a $1500 motor.

I guess we will see, but, I don't think there is any reason to think that with what we have seen so far. Bad head gasket, maybe surface the head, Water and rust are not a problem. Cylinder is not scored yet!
Fixable.
Of course it is a 400 hp motor, so might need to be done ocasionally with a freshen up.

What bore is that motor?

Stan,
I'm Stoopid, followed the link and got to a PB home page. What name did you save the pictures under?

I hope to never tear my bike down, but appreciate those of you who post how. Just in case.

Has turbo pistons, don't know the compression, yet, and yes, since it got all the inbetween gaps, more than likely lost fuel ratio. I don't think that Brent built this, but was a sorted setup when he got it.. He should post up the history, but he has asked for help in the past. I will look for a link. I know we sudgested an afr, but I was thinking he has a dyno tuner setting it. Might be a intermit fuel starvation too. He is trying to get it back right. But, when it froze, he quit. I am figuring water leaked into the cylinder from the gasket, on compression and hydro locked, now. Could have pulled the plug and lubed the cylinder and would have turned, but the gasket was gone so at least that was going to have to be replaced. I will go through everything and make sure it is clean and proper.




scroll down and you will see them, click on them and they will get big.




Looks stock, have not measured it yet.

The head bolt torque was really high. I saw some lube on the bolts but it broke like it was sealant. Not sure but something seemed wrong. Should have reverse torqued one but felt like 150 lbs.

If this is going to be what I hope and Brent is looking for both you guys will have to do your thing. All questions and answers, tips, encoraged, no matter how far the end of the scale.

I want to do a turbo and others too. I plan on recording each detail to get down the required and advanced and optional.

So if you will, Dean, bring it. You too Hank, and Brent, your going to have to drop em. Cause we want to see it.



Should be fun. And informative.



The afr, man that is a required setup. I have one on a stock motor with custom header. Hate to see that have to go to Ebay. No matter how much it is cheap compaired to this.

Going to measure everthing to find out...

Forrest (XX4me) has quite a bit of street turbo experience. I hope he chimes in on this thread.

Glad to see my baby is in good hands :D a little about the bike, has a 61mm large frame turbo, 3 core air to air intercooler, je pistons, carillo rods, falcon crank, big head studs, lockup clutch.. i ran the bike at 10/20lbs boost with premium gas, made 400hp no problem. the problems started when i cracked 3rd gear and sent my bike to a shop to fix the transmission, the bike was never the same... after tearing through it and finding loose wires for the fuel pump. and a few boost leaks i thought i found my problem but turns out i was wrong it was only making 16lbs so i turned it up a little thinking the guy played with the boost controller still 16lbs on the way back home to check for leaks i got a real nasty squeek noise.. then on the way to a friends house the bike locked up on the highway

This was my bike before Brent bought it from me. It went many times over 200 mph and many miles under heavy boost....most likely detonation happened when the fuel pump lost voltage for a second or 2 due to loose wireing...it is carbed not FI.

I was going to see if you would post all that you know about this motor. I am going to go through the teardown and rebuild to make sure it is clean and preped. But, it is pretty modded, and if you know any pitfalls, part numbers, equal to the friken huge head bolt spec's, might make my job go better.
Thanks for the info and post.

This might be fun.

Update. I am kind a anal about how I think you should tear down. I bag everything with tags. Ziplocks, felt tip pen. Boxed. Never let me down, yet, and makes for a easy rebuild. I forget shit and have to remember, harder as I get old, but, good habits, help.

I have added a lot of pic's to the file, but some need to be here, to tell the story.





[img]http://i257.photobucket.com/albums/hh231/trurotor/Brents%20motor/DSC03636D.jpgimg]



















































Yep, number three rod bearing stacked, and just pieces. The screen for the pump had some brassy lookng slivers and there is some trash in the pan. Not bad just need a rod and a crank. and if I can get the number one out without scratching the cylinder, and the rust is not bad,,,,Sorry, Brent but that was the pig squeeling.

Stan, is that a crack in the tooth of the large left gear?

Don't know how big your spare parts pile is, but I have a carbed parts motor from
a wreck. Lower crankcase is broken from the impact with a curb but it supposedly
only has 6500 miles on it. Lemme know if you have any interest...Hank

I will look real close Dean, but not noticed any so far.

Sure looks like a crack in the picture, will see.

And I think that Brent has everything but a crank so far.

Redcam do you know if the crank has anything done to it, special?

has a dyna 2000 ignition system, we dont know what was done to the crank just that it was prepped by fallicon

Its carbed with a big fuel pump from a volvo, the computer is part of the dyna 2000 yes bgi fmu

hopefully these pictures help

Been tied up today with church, so no progress, but the bearings were stacked, so the ticking noise was the bearing out. Nothing else. The squeal was the bearing tightening when it stacked. They were half gone, so there is a lot of metal somewhere. Going to cut the filter apart and unroll the element to see how much it caught. Going to worry about the bearings in the turbo.
With the problems I had and getting to the solution, I found that all it takes is loss of pressure. Not any amount of time, for the bearing in number three to fail. It will tick but, it is done. On the second one it did not tick where you could hear it. But, I saw the oil light blink. And with a stethoscope could hear it under idle. Pulled it down and the bearing was to the copper, no more. still got the crank and rod, as per Elton.
I am under the impression that pre oiling a tore down motor, is essential. I use a Cannon oil accumulator. It allows me to crank the engine, without ign, and store oil in it, and block with a valve. Then before I start open and pre oil. Excessive, I know, and more than not, likely, not necessary. But, the preoil without ign, is. One thing is that my tap is on the end with number three oil galley, the right side. I had a better choice on the other end as to fit. But, with the number three, having the problem I thought that feed from that side would be better.

All this means is that the tick started at the same time that the oil was lost,or about as soon as you could guess.
Another thing that is very important, per Elton. That the relief valve be replaced or shimmed to produce no relief of oil till 100 lbs. And the oil pump be able to produce that amount of pressure. I get that with a stock pump, but a elderly one that had been through the failure of the bearing did not. Could not see the few thousands that were added in clearance to the end play on the rotors. The little scars in the clearance between the rotors. Add up. Coating them would make for a better pump, with a Teflon, or such.

The crank is pretty bad Dean, I will measure to see, but the exchange with Elton is 300 last I was told.

I have a good crank I could pull from my 01 motor

No crack in the gear and no aluminum on the pistons.

The crank from Elton done by Falcon, has tighter clearances, for the oil problem, I am told.

Take a good look at the cylinder head, where the cams run.
That's another area that doesn't like metal particles, if any got through.
Hank

Yes had heard that, and looking at them, I see no scratches, but the covers look dull, and the head looks shiny. So some problems.

The crank does not look as bad as I would have expected,but, have not checked the diameter yet.

Neither does the rod, but they can't be correct. Will dial bore them and report.

Now the filter, well the metal in in there, and the back side looks pretty clean. There was a small amount of metal in the pan, but not as bad as I would have expected. Filter did it's job, but the bypass let some through it seams.


But, the cylinder is bad, and other than being way down in the cylinder where the pitting is, should be bored to remove the problem.

That is scouring pad clean.

Stan found 2 je pistons and carillo rods, and a bunch of rings.. will be sending it out with a few other things this friday...

also found a set of (i believe) stock hayabusa and blackbird pistons if anyone wants them

To get the rash out we are going to have to bore it, Brent. Oversize, pistons?

no i think they are stock size, not 100% sure...maybe it would be cheaper to get a head off ebay or the board? what do you think?

Is it a 97 Carbed motor or a FI motor?

I think Dean has some carbed heads, I have one off a 01.

Looks like that motor is pretty tore up, I thought breaking a ring was bad...

97 carbed i think it was FI at one point

Yes it is stock bore now, and the pistons looked good, and the head is more than likely fine.

Think, but will have to clean and measure everything with micrometers, but first sight.not to bad
So far,
crank, bore and pistons, rod, bearings, shims and maybe buckets, rings and gaskets. Not bad, and going to be bigger!

Hp relief valve, oil pump? Might be able to shim yours, and lap the pump housing.

Valve job...

I just hope the rash on the cylinder will clean at 1mm. should.

I forget what is the difference in the heads? If your carbed. Thought it was a sensor that was not used.

Any updates???

Plastigauged the cam covers at .003 clearance, but have not checked the allowable. think the covers are gone. Sending the crank out tomorrow and getting a new rod.
The shims and buckets are junk and going to see if the cams are too. Springs are weak, and will need to be replaced and shimed for closed pressure.
Been working a lot so not as much done. Need pistons to bore. Gotta find some.

I believe the cam covers and head are assembled and line bored together, precluding replacing the covers alone...I'm not sure about allowable clearance but to much bleeds off oil pressure.
I don't think the springs can be shimmed. I measured the set I had and they were too close to coil bind with minimal shimming. 20 lbs boost necessitates HD springs, but the original valves are a 2 piece design, which don't react too well with increased spring pressure.
Just been through most of this with Bob Carpenter of Carpenter Race Engines on my motor.
Hank

Thanks Hank, Was going to call and talk to Elton about that. I was pretty sure that was what he said before on the cam covers.
Was going to measure the pressures first, and then decide on the springs. But, with the marks on the buckets and shims, would be surprised.

You're welcome...
My stock springs measured 38 lbs seat pressure..
Add max boost that you want to run (20 lbs or more) and you're in the 58+ lb area.
IMO, Carpenter has the best springs available and are about $140.00 for the set.

Stock valves are 2 piece...
Each piece is spun (in opposite directions) at high speed and pressed together, welding themselves...this is cheaper than 1 piece but not as strong. Bob had a couple of valve failures with stock valves and HD springs and advised me against it...
I only run 10-12 lbs boost so stock is OK for my motor...

Hank

cheap big-bore cometic head gasket


going to play with my "feeler guage"

No problem shimming aftermarket springs, as there is usually more room between the coils to start with. The problem comes in when trying to shim stock springs.
If I could have shimmed mine, I would have...

.004 is max on oil clearance on the cams, and we have .003. Iffy for sure and lowers the oil pressure.

Ok, talked with Elton, Need one falcon rod, crank, 81mm pistons and pens, springs and ti retainers, gaskets,from him.
Cams measure ok, but have marks. Going to need good valves. Don't have a price on them yet.

The stuff from Elton right at $2200.00

Need buckets, bearings, and oil pump.

Somebody throw a glass of water on Brent for me.

Is this a Morrison turbo unit? What size is the turbo Brent?

The pistons are a new one that EFR has that has more meat between the top ring and the intake valve cut. And alum. pin buttons, and tool steel pins. Yours were bent too, so that will be needed.

Now your not going to get the power you were saying without going to injection. A conversion by EFR is going to be about 10,000. Just so you know.

He also said he has some good heads. And he is doing a 1500cc bird engine too. Cool. Working on a nitro one too.

haven't been watching for a while..but carpenter springs work fine..never had any problems over 35lbs of boost on any of my Busas...the bird was fine to 30 lbs with the springs that were in there over 13500 rpm...the clicking brent was refering to was not a berring noise..it would only do it when the bike was moving..in any gear and sounded like it was coming from the output shaft area...would not do it on the stand, only when there was some kind of load on it.....why cant the rod be re-sized in stead of replaced?...done it before with many rods.....and to all that say you can't make big power with carbs....just because you cant make it work doesn't mean it can't be done...that bike made 460whp @28lbs many time without breaking a sweat..with A/F ratios a fi bike would dream about...and going up a few jet sizes and 35lbs it's an animal...it was built by a friend of Dennis(motorhead)...he has been building carb'd turbo bikes since the mid 80s. I pulled one of vellocitys baddest busa turbo drag bikes from a 50mph roll like he shut it off....with antiquated technology...ten years ago evryone said you couldn't make a blow through carb boosted drag car work...woops...they were wrong too...

Hey Redcam, glad you posted that...I remember when your bike was for sale and I thought it was a real good deal. I had an idea this was the same bike...big head bolts were Dennis's trademark.. I took my carbed BB to Dennis after I installed the turbokit and had him dyno it...I really enjoyed the time I spent there, got a chance to meet Mike Shank and "Diesel"...brought him some bisquits the second trip. My buddy had Dennis put a MCXpress Stg 2 kit on his Busa...Dennis has forgotten more about Turboes than most people know...wish he was still around.
A-F is real nice on my bike too, but it's only a 12 lb, pump gas everyday rider...
So you're not buyin that the only way to make big HP is to ship suitcases full of money to Elton? LOL...Again, thanks for postin...Hank

Most bearings that are out only make noise when loaded. And these bearings were not only bad but almost gone, completely. I have re sized rods also, and wondered the same thing. I can only guess that the Falicon Rods are not recommended to be re sized. What I get is there is a limit, at the part line, and he does look to see if it is too bad there. No mater how much you take out of the rod cap and rod face is going to reduce the diameter at the part line much, enough to make it smaller so you have the crush you need to hold the bearing.

The main deal is oil clearance on the rods big-end. Honda allows for .001", but for big power it should be .0005". That takes better rod and mains. And good work getting the corect bearings sized and correctly installed. Proper cleaning, fitting, torque.

Now I will build it anyway that you think, but I have been clear as to what is wrong and the solution. The rust in the cylinder is the big decision. And the most expensive problem.

The springs and valves and retainers, your choice also. There is an indication that a problem has been happening, with the shims and buckets. The excess valve clearance could have caused that. I don't know what the rpm this was turned to. And the hp Brent was telling me he wanted out of this, well it is going to cost buckets, maybe barrels.

If money is a problem, then hp will be. I am being paid to look at the parts and see what I see. And post up, so we can decide what to do.

If it was mine, and I did not have the money, to make the hp I wanted, I know what I would do. I would build the bottom end the best that money would buy. No skimping, there. I would buy new pens, and run the pistons I had. Hone the cylinders and put new rings. Check the springs and shim for closed pressure and check for bind. Measure the valves heads and if over. Put my money into new good valves. Not stock.

When I got the money, change the springs and retainers for good ones. If I made the same power as before fine. Save the money up to do this again with 80 mm new style pistons and refresh bearings, and then turn it up.

What do you think?

I agree with you on your diagnosis..but when the bike was delivered to the guy to fix the trans ,it ran perfect...when it was picked up...the clicking was there...if you brought the bike up to 50 and pulled the clutch in,the noise continued with the motor idleing..no load on the motor....i agree that it should be put together right...but whatever springs were in it were fine to 14k...not saying they're still good...but they were...turbo is a t-61...NOT the one that was in it when it was dyno'd...that one was closer to a 65mm..but the same housing...a hybrid...It's up to him what his budget is...he needs to sell some of his star trek action figures i guess...only kidding...good luck.

I could hear mine tick at idle, with open headers, and it was just to the copper. Lost oil pressure for no more than a second at idle, when I went to stop hard. You may not know, but I run non sump pan like EFR has. And my oil would not stay covering the oil pickup when I would stop. Oil light would blink and it was done. I built a wind age tray between the pan and case, and added a Canton oil accumulator to the main oil galley. And never had another problem. Under some extreme conditions that no bird has ever seen. Since it don't lean centrifugal force does not keep the oil in the pan, but drives it to the crank under stopping and to the trans under acceleration. And I am not kidding, repaired the motor, took for a quick warm up and blast 1/8 mile and tore down. Still got my Falicon rod. And the crank, the second time, too.
Almost 20,000 on it since.

motor is almost ready to put together. Bought 81mm pistons and another rod, crank, valves, springs, retainers, bearings, gaskets, did a valve job, bored the block, and ported the head. Set valve installed height and pressure, lapped the valves. Set the ring gap. Gone thorugh the trans for problems and found a extra washer, and some marks on the shift forks I dont like. The trans undercut looks well done and they are shotpeaned well. Over all looks like it will be a great motor.

Some pictures are in the photobucket. But I wanted to show Brent the marks on the shift forks.












Some of the porting work

Looking good!


I like the porting job!

thanks was really nasty, seats overhang .125 inch all the way around both intake and exhaust. rough too. casting part line stallagtights, and mights....much better now.

thanks Josh.

shit, 15 spring seats,,,blackdiamond is sending another, head together less one valve..rods and pistons and crank tomorrow...

Well today was a mixture of shit, and success.

The rods Brent had in the motor did not have the oil hole drilled that sends oil to the bottom of the piston, and the replacement one did, so got that put in them.

Went to put the rods and pistons together and the second clip would not go into the groove. Called and found that the chamfer was not enough. Needed .010 deeper on each end. So I cut that and all was good.

Then went to put the rings on,,,,and they were the wrong ones, Fuck!!!~ already fitted too. Another call and they were wc8100 not the wg8100 they were to have been.

Oh yeah, Blackdiamond lost my info, had to call and reorder the seat. Good thing I told them where I got all the parts from.

So I guess I get tomorrow off...great.


wrist pen too long circlip not in the groove



another view


one more


fixing the problem


done



rod oil hole