Checked my valve clearance this morning. Two intake and three exhaust are out of specification (tight).

Now I have to pull the cams, was really hoping that wasn't going to be necessary. Probably going to have a grand time sourcing the shims without going through the dealer.

Bike has 41k on it, and the valves in question are only out ~.001", but out is out.


Not happy :(

Have you tried running Sea-Foam through both the gas tank and also through a vaccuum line? It may well simply be carbon built up that could dissapate with the Sea-foam... for $6 it may be worth a shot.

$6 and doing it all over again. Checking the valves is cake, getting to them is not.


Besides, I'd think any carbon buildup on the valves or seats would have them running loose, not tight.

If they were carboned up, they'd be loose, not tight.

Uh yeah, what he said.

Good point :lol: :wink:


I love it when that happens.

actually.... carbon deposits would make it loose, not tight

Knock it off...all of you.


You're gonna wuss out over a thousandth in 40 thousand miles?

Wait till 80k and they're 2 thousandths out. Why do twice the work?

Don't think I haven't thought about it, Joe.

Bike ain't going anywhere for awhile anyway, I'm thinking I'll feel better next spring knowing all is within spec.



BTW- Carbon buildup would have them running loose, not tight.

You did check them with the Motor COLD correct ?

And was your feeler guage face up ?

How many Grams of pull did you have on the feeler guage ?

Alrighty then, since you are the Garage Moderator, and you're going to do the valves I think it's only right that you post up very thorough and comprehensive instructions complete with pictures (an idiots guide if you will) for any and all of your loyal followers. Step by Step with a picture for each step is on order I think. Something that a 14 year old girl could easily follow. I would imagine 20-25 pages (notebook size) with 10 PT Font single spaced and 50 or so pictures will do it.

You'll feel better knowing you did a great service to all of us.

:)

1) Duh.

2) Feeler gauge? I used a ruler.

3) You're kidding, right?


Seriously, feeler gauge was inserted both ways, but why would it matter? You'll have to educate me on that one.



Scot, I'll take a few pics and try and put something together. Too late for the teardown, but the manual covers that pretty well. Problem will be finding a 14 year old girl to explain it to you :lol:

:lol: :lol: Fucker :greenfingers:

Whew, and i thought i was gonna loose sleep tonite...

Now I just checked the fridge and there's no Captain Morgan, now's that a f.....g crisis, off to run an errand, be back later...

Like most things in life, I prefer my tolerances on the looser side rather than too tight :P

I know a guy with a few exxtra shims.

Lemme ask him if he'll let you borrow them.

"Hey, J. Some dude on the XX forum wants to bum a few shims off you. Yeah. Uh, huh. Fucking A, he's good for it... Whatever, man."

Yeah, he said it's okay.

I think I still gots your addy.

Run the shims across some sand paper to take a thousandth off :crazy:

Oh and carbon makes them loose :oops:

Use fine sandpaper.

Use glass under the sandpaper.

It was just too easy, sorry :D


J, tell your friend he rocks and I'll be in touch.

Yes buddy.... I was Kidding! :lol:

Sort of.... I might have been insinuating that one one thousands of an inch (.001) would be offly hard to tell the difference in, and that one person may say that it's still within spec to his feel, whereas another might even say it's out.

But I trust that you are comfortable with your measurement, and that's all that really matter anyhow. :wink: right ?

Now you did lube the feeler guage before you inserted it didn't you ?

Things always feel tighter when they're dry you know !

Yea, I know. I set it up pretty good. I'll have to be more cautious around you. :)

The cams and buckets had a handy coating of oil on them :wink:


As far as "feel", not a factor. Minimum clearance is .008" (EX), .008" gauge does not fit, .007" gauge fits nice and snug, clear as day, .001 tight.

Of course, the .007 wasn't as snug on all of them that were tight, but if some have to go, might as well hit the borderline ones while I'm in there.

Fooking amateurs shouldn't be messing with their valves in the first place if they ain't got .0075 slips.

I'm proud of you. I'da been sorely tempted to put it back together. But its winter, and already apart....

Wow! Hell DID freeze over! Feels like it here anyway 5 deg F. right now.

If they were 1 thou. loose I'd just button it up, but tight is not good.

Mine fluctuate from 1 check to the next, I had 1 valve 1 thou. loose, left it alone and at at the next check fine again. THAT might be the Seafoam. :wink:

I've been dreading the cam removal, mostly due to the fact that the frame rail blocks looking at the cam sprockets on the right side.

Yes, please do a write up for us.

I seriously considered dropping the motor. Decided not to as I had some free time today (3-6" of snow my ass) and was able to use a mirror to line everything up real nice. Putting it back together may be a different story, but that's a problem for down the road.


Progress-




I'm done for now. Awaiting the arrival of a new micrometer (because mine is shit and I deserve a new toy for doing all this work) and shims.

Doood. Some foo jacked ya cams!

I get butterfly's in my stomach just looking at your pics.

You want butterflys?

Imagine that's your bike and some 19 year old making $8.50 an hour is going to put it back together.


Dealers scare me :wink:

+1

Does she have big tits?

Yes, he does.

I never made 8.50/hr turning wrenches when I was 19...

You probably didn't have big tits.

Good point.

I also worked at a shop which was probably the most honest on the planet, so no surplus money for me.

We had customers:

"I am Azim, from Saudi Arabia. I have a Porsche 911 which I would like serviced and inspected fully. I will pay your price. You see, I would like peace of mind that my car is in good condition, as I am traveling back home, never to return."

No shit, we would do exactly what he asked. Even though we'd never hear from him again. Not that I condone unethical behavior, but we always did the right thing, even if we lost money doing it. It's not that the owners of the shop were religious, they were some kinda granola-birkenstock-balanced-planet weirdos. They didn't eat meat. I mean, none. Fucking bizarre, I tell you.

+1

This just may be past the limits of my wrenching skills.

Unless you do that write up with the big tit 19 yr old. Preferably a female.

It's really not as bad as it looks. I've never done a shim under bucket valve ajustment before, but with a manual, the right tools and a small amount of common sense it's not that big of of a deal. It's one of those take your time, take notes and you'll do fine kinda things. It also helps that I'm in absolutely no hurry.

Still no progress (except pulling the radiator), but I did take a few more pics and host them for any who might be interested. I'll get more once I pull the buckets and ajust, and of the subsequent re-assembly and re-check of the clearance, but this is it for now- http://www.pbase.com/redbird1137/valve_ajustment

Thats where I lost my socks :oops:


Give em a wash before you send them back to me..... :P

No no no! You guys are doing this the hard way...
Ya don't sand the shims, ya sand the cams, while they're still in the head!
Much easier.
Sheesh. Rookies...

Kev

In all seriousness, Tim:

Thanks for the pictures. This is one of those things that I usually pay a guy to do, at great expense. Still not sure if I'd feel comfortable doing it myself, but it helps.

Would love to come down and look over your shoulder during re-assembly.

Yes, Tim, thanks for the pics. I'm gonna break out my manual and follow along. I just might do this myself, should Hell ever freeze over again, of course.

Thanks very much.

I wouldn't have any problem with that, Rich, but the problem is how I work. It's usually in increments of anywhere from 10-30 minutes spead throughout the day/week/month, however it fits in. I don't think I've spent more that 30 minutes straight on it since I began, and probably not even that much.

So, if you wanna stop by Tuesday or Wednesday and hang out for a week or two, that oughta cover it. :wink:

I promise I'll take lots more pictures.

This would be a great time to pick up a degree wheel and some slotted cam sprockets and degree your cams while you are at it.

There are numerous instructions for finding lobe centers on the web and it really isn't all that hard. Nice gains to be picked up in the mid range by spreading out the lobe centers a bit.

Check out Erion Racing or Muzzy performance for the sprockets. They usually come with instructions as well. Orient Express might be another good source.

Take your time, read the manual at least twice and get a good picture of what you are doing before applying the wrenches and all will be well.

Good Luck

You're no doubt right, but while I feel up to the task of taking it apart and putting it back together, modifying the cam timing is a bit beyond my skillset at this point.

I'll order the slotted cams if you want to come over and give me a hand degreeing them :P



Well said, that's excellent advice no matter what you're doing :D

Or as my old QOTW said "Work yourself up a good dump and study"

Thanks Tim for posting this up. I've done the valves on my 900, but that doesn't require cam removal as it's shim over bucket.

I degreed my cams in my V65 Sabre (twice as hard, 2 heads and 4 cams :shock: ) to 104 degrees and noticed........nothing. No change in low and midrange power which is what I was looking for.

Cam timing IS the big variable between 10 identical bikes picked off the showroom floor as far as power goes. No two will be set exactly the same, let alone where the factory intended.

As your bike gets mileage on it the cam chain stretches and your timing retards giving you more low rpm power and response with a barely detectable drop in top end.

I've noticed this on my XX but can't be sure it's not also my carb, exaust, etc, mods.

And eat Eva's cooking? Do you know how tempting that is? I bet she'd talk polish once in a while, too. Damn.

I could bring my boys down, they could pull the heads off of your daughter's Barbies (Ok, bad idea...:twisted:)

Just take pics, that will have to do. It will have to be some other time.

Screw degreeing the stockers, you got em out already, time for some race cams!

Two comments on the valve clearance issue.

First is that the advice about sanding shims is dubious. Shims are surface hardened, and this treatment does not go very far into the metal. It is crucial to have the proper hardening else the valve will punch a divot into the bottom of the shim.

Secondly, any clearance of less than .001" is hard to improve upon. you will find that the shims vary by quite a bit when you measure a few that are labeled as identical. If you've got all winter and a shop that will let you trade shims till you get exactly what you want then you might achieve "perfection".

As to the carbon buildup changing the clearance, that is hogwash. The clearance changes because the sealing surface wears on both the valve and the valve seat. That is why valves get tighter over time. They get looser when the cam lobe and/or cam follower starts to lose material from wear.

Loose valves clack and change timing which slightly affects engine power. Its not the worst thing in the world.
Tight valves get tighter as the engine heats and the valve shaft expands. This is why the hot and cold numbers are different.if the clearance gets to be too small them the valve will not seal and this is when you get a burned valve.
If you really care to have the valves right then the hot number is the only one that counts. The cold number is there to get you close.

Mike

Clearance wasn't less than .001, that's just how far they were out of spec, which is a .002 range, so I was looking at a .002 correction. You're right about the shims not all measuring as labeled, which is why I measured them all rather than attempt to correct "blindly" by just replacing them based on labeled thickness. With the shims J (thanks, you stud) sent me and rearranging what was in the bike I've gotten as close to perfection as I'm going to. Haven't re-installed the cams and re-checked clearance yet, so that's still theory.



What would the result of carbon buildup on the valves and seats be, then? I'm not saying that's the only way they'd go loose, but it's my understanding that it can happen, you're saying it can't? Not being argumentitive, just looking for clarification, I'm hardly an expert when it comes to this stuff, just a guy with some feeler gauges and a micrometer :wink: